"'FOSSE/VERDON' COMING TO FX"- Page 21

[uncageg]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 11:40pm

I wish they had stuck closer to the way his collapse I the street was described in the book. They could have cut the flashbacks in with all that the is described in the book.

I really started to enjoy his performance the last 3 episodes.

She was flawless from top to bottom. 

As a whole, I enjoyed it. It wasn't quite what i expected based on the promos but it was beautifully shot, well cast and well acted. Norbert Leo Butz gave quite an impressive performance.  JMO

[ljay889]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 11:54pm

At the end of the day, I can look past so many of the inaccuracies because as Brody has mentioned, the series is introducing a new generation to Gwen Verdon and renewing interest in her career. Being that she didn't live and work as long as the likes of Chita, Stritch, Channing, Lansbury, etc, I've worried that she would be quite forgotten over time. Thankfully, this will never be the case, and her legacy will surely live on through this series. Hopefully "Perfectly Marvelous," Ken Bloom's documentary on Verdon will find the proper funding now. 

Updated On: 5/28/19 at 11:54 PM

[SmoothLover]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 12:19am

I thought the actors handled the death sequence well. They were both communicating effectively through their eyes and facial expressions. The flashbacks might not have been necessary but they did solidify the extraordinary life and understanding between the two artists which was the main core of the series.

I was amazed that Lin looked somewhat like Roy Scheider, The make up was excellent and Lin had some of the mannerisms down without total imitating him.. He also cleverly was doing a slight squint and was exhibiting Scheider's rogue energy. It is one of the best things I have ever seen him do and I have seen him do a lot of stage work over the years.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 4:57am

Not sure about the factual inacuracies- but this miniseries was on of the most enjoyable and riveting television experiences I have had-  I clapped at the end of this episode last night- I thoroughly enjoyed this miniseries- Bravo to the cast and crew. I thought that although Fosse was portrayed as self absorbed and obsessed with women and his art- the relationship with Gwen seemed real and complex- as I expect Picasso and many great artists were. I would imagine -though there are lots of dramatic liberties taken, the essence of both Gwen and Fosse are portrayed somewhat accurately- since Nicole was involved with the production.. As drama, it totally worked- I think we all understand that these miniseries and life stories take many liberties. If the essence is accurate, then it is a successful portrait. 

Updated On: 5/29/19 at 04:57 AM

[The Other One]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 5:20am

Miles2Go2 said: "So I guess that you hated “What’s Love Got to Do With It”, “Ray”, “Walk the Line”, “Sweet Dreams”, and “Coal Miner’s Daughter” to name a few. All plus many more most certainly took artistic liberties and used dramatic license to make certain points in a dramatic way including combining and condensing characters into one character and attribution of actions by one or more characters to another. At least there’s only tonight’s episode and then the armchair quarterbacking afterwards which will die out over next few weeks."

None of them took eight weeks to do it.  

This mini-series had its good points and not-so-good points, but it ended beautifully.  Williams was remarkable throughout and Butz hit new highs as Chayefsky as well.  I don't know if anyone could have completely sold Fosse as he is depicted here, but Rockwell boldly presented a flawed and haunted character and found a sense of tough love that, for me, made him understandable if not always likable.

I will probably appreciate it more when thinking about it than I did while watching it.

[Stage Door Sally]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 8:19am

I'm done reading Children! Children!. If anyone wants my copy for $5 and postage, please let me know in a PM.

[Kad]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 10:17am

Interpreting that interview with Reinking as her confirming the show is a "full of lies" is a bit of a stretch. Why are people acting so new and so incensed to the concept of the process of adapting history to a dramatic form? Is it because the subject is dear to them? 

That said, I was disappointed the series ended with such a cliche biopic trope of written epilogue. And the focus on Nicole here was distracting, and really the only time I felt her influence strongly. 

But that "If My Friends Could See Me Now" scene was stunning. 

[EdEval]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 11:13am

Gwen,  I'm so sorry you had to go through such pain, but while you were here on earth you made many people happy with your wonderful talents.  Bob, you were a genius and you won't be forgotten.  Nichole, it must have been painful at times doing this series, but I am glad you were there in control.  I enjoyed this very emotional series,  and bravo to all who participated.  Perhaps more bios on Broadway legends are soon due;  Ethel Merman ,  Jerry Orbach,  or Joel Grey  for example.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 12:30pm

Kad said: "Interpreting that interview with Reinking as her confirming the show is a "full of lies" is a bit of a stretch. Why are people acting so new and so incensed to the concept of the process of adapting history to a dramatic form?Is it because the subject is dear to them?

Kad, I think that may be it. 

 

[binau]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 2:48pm

Sooo emotional during the death. Never had much interest in Williams before this show but will follow her through everything now. It has ignited an interest in Gwen Verdon I never had, and it's also helped me revisit Chicago - which up until now I had been over for about 10 years. 

[ARTc3]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 6:54pm

Just finished watching Fosse / Verdon. I am so disappointed. I really wanted this to be good. It wasn't. It did have a few inspired moments and the leads were all good, but the writing was poor, the dancing worse and the new choreography mostly uninspired and not at all 'Fosse'.

It saddens me that for many people this will be how they know the work and lives of these brilliant talented stage and film icons. 

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 7:07pm

I really want to watch the show, but I don't want to watch the sex scene.  Could somebody provide time stamps for where I should skip?

[kofler22]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 7:15pm

On the live covering Lin did yesterday with Nicole Fosse during the breaks, he said that the Bluray edition will include delated scenes and she said that maybe the complete musical numbers! Let’s cross our fingers!

[uncageg]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 9:00pm

Just read the Reinking piece. For me, if what she says about the hospital bed sex is true then, I have kind of Lost respect for the creators of this series. (Actually want crazy about some involved from the start) I wasn't crazy about that scene as is and was trying to remember if it was I the book. But i was just watching and thinking that they took his sexual appetite too far. We already knew he was bedding a lot of girls and i just wasn't believing she would do that. Also she was supposedly injured at the time. JMO

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 9:23pm

MollyJeanneMusic said: "I really want to watch the show, but I don't want to watch the sex scene. Could somebody provide time stamps for where I should skip?"

Just close your eyes.  There’s no nudity and the scene runs possibly less than 10 seconds.  It doesn’t happen graphically as it is more implied. 

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 9:38pm

Ann clearly states that sex moment DID happen, just not after his surgery. The creative team has addressed the discrepancies in the series if you Google interviews they’ve done. There are several. They firmly state the series is NOT a documentary and due to the time constraints per episode, numerous things had to be consolidated to accomplish the tact of covering moments but not in an honest chronology. Each episode was treated independently so they needed to fit the time given to that episode as they couldn’t just include a moment later in another episode.

Yes, in true life while Bob Fosse was recuperating from his open heart surgery, Ann was in another hospital recuperating from back surgery from an injury she suffered doing her legendary jitterbug (with John Mineo) in the 1974 Broadway musical OVER HERE! She didn’t visit Bob at the hospital. She did say that sex moment did happen afterwards when Bob was better. The series wanted to include that pivotal moment so the timeline was shuffled so it could be included in the episode dealing with his heart surgery. Plain and simple. She’s admitted that moment DID happen just not during the timeline in the series. It wasn’t a sex scene fabricated by the writers.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 9:40pm

Just finished and overall found the thing a dirge from a start to finish. The last moments with the montage were more effective than the whole series. I found that to be a problem. The montage showed an emotional arc that was never established during the series. It fabricated that the episodes took us on that journey. It didn't. Not for me anyway. 

The last montage is a testament to the work of Williams. Just give her all the awards. Without her, this endeavor would be a lost cause. I'm glad I watched to witness her performance, but I could never sit through that again, with or without bluray extras. 

I'm still irked and I won't stop being irked that Bob was completely void of any charm when those around him were very vocal about his. I didn't give a crap when he died because he was unsympathetic. The writers truly failed. They NEVER showed why all those women were under his spell. He clearly had the ability to captivate people and the series never showed why. 

Nicole had a very heavy hand in this. It's clear. The last episode focusing on her shifted the tone and felt odd. Tying her life up with a pretty bow during the prologue seemed off (she lived happily ever after and took care of her mother until her death), disingenuous and awfully convenient after exposing her parents to be terribly unhappy. 

I found this series tonally uneven and not well done for all the resources thrown at it. I hope Williams gets the accolades she so richly deserves, but I hope the writers are not acknowledged for this messy sad affair. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 9:50pm

ljay889 said: "At the end of the day, I can look past so many of the inaccuracies because as Brody has mentioned, the series is introducing a new generation to Gwen Verdon and renewing interest in her career. Being that she didn't live and work as longas the likes of Chita, Stritch, Channing, Lansbury, etc, I've worried that she would be quite forgotten over time. Thankfully, this will never be the case, and her legacy will surely live onthrough this series. Hopefully"Perfectly Marvelous,"Ken Bloom's documentary on Verdon will find the proper funding now."

Gwen Verdon was an above-the-title Broadway star for a good 24 years! And that doesn't count her later work as a production supervisor. She won more Tony Awards than any of the women you mention except Angela. Yet you make Verdon sound like a one-hit wonder!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 10:04pm

MollyJeanneMusic said: "I really want to watch the show, but I don't want to watch the sex scene. Could somebody provide time stamps for where I should skip?"

The "sex scene" isn't that graphic. IIRC, you see her sit on him, both fully dressed, and then it's mostly shoulders and up.

It's just uncomfortable because it's presented as taking place 5 days after surgery. Apparently in real life it took place in the hospital, but some time later.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 10:15pm

Kad said: "Interpreting that interview with Reinking as her confirming the show is a "full of lies" is a bit of a stretch. Why are people acting so new and so incensed to the concept of the process of adapting history to a dramatic form?Is it because the subject is dear to them?

That said, I was disappointed the series ended with such a cliche biopic trope of written epilogue. And the focus on Nicole here was distracting, and really the only time I felt her influence strongly.

But that "If My Friends Could See Me Now" scene was stunning."

In fairness, Kad, this was the first time Nichole was presented as an adult. (Yes, the same actress appeared earlier, but she was playing a teenager.)

The bio quotes Fosse as saying he really didn't know what to do with Nichole when she was a kid, that they only became close when she started studying ballet and the two of them had the worlds of dance in common.

***

I thought the scene of Fosse's death was a little, "Well, we've come this far, let's go ahead and win Michele that Emmy!" But the actual details of his death conformed to the account in the book, which I had read only a couple of hours earlier. The book retreats, however, to a stranger's p.o.v. rather than zooming in.

But I further think they wanted to end with the point that whatever the state of their romance, Verdon and Fosse's partnership very much continued through his lifetime. They were soulmates, no matter how many women he screwed.

As for the alleged "factual inaccuracies" I didn't see many compared to what was reported in the book. It was more a change in tone, and a condensation of events, than an invention of facts. (Yes, I know, bk, grocery bags didn't have handles and phone calls were a dime.) And even the "dour Bob Fosse" about which we've all complained wasn't so far off the book's portrayal of Fosse once he took on the extra responsibilities--including teaching himself to use a camera--of directing. Per Wasson, it seems Fosse became less and less fun as he spent more time multitasking and fighting with movie studios. Who wouldn't?

Updated On: 5/29/19 at 10:15 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 10:26pm

Brody, I read the intetview. I understand the time constraints of filming and having to possibly condense and change time period, etc. As I said, for me, I just didn't care for it.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/29/19 at 10:39pm

BrodyFosse123 said: "Ann clearly states that sex moment DID happen, just not after his surgery. The creative team has addressed the discrepancies in the series if you Google interviews they’ve done. There are several. They firmly state the series is NOT a documentary and due to the time constraints per episode, numerous things had to be consolidated to accomplish the tact of covering moments but not in an honest chronology. Each episode was treated independently so they needed to fit the time given to that episode as they couldn’t just include a moment later in another episode.

Yes, in true life while Bob Fosse was recuperating from his open heart surgery, Ann was in another hospital recuperating from back surgery from an injury she suffered doing her legendary jitterbug (with John Mineo) in the 1974 Broadway musical OVER HERE! She didn’t visit Bob at the hospital. She did say that sex moment did happen afterwards when Bob was better. The series wanted to include that pivotal moment so the timeline was shuffled so it could be included in the episode dealing with his heart surgery. Plain and simple. She’s admitted that moment DID happen just not during the timeline in the series. It wasn’t a sex scene fabricated by the writers."

Oh just stop justifying the liberties taken with the truth. They could have easily addressed this as it really happened. People who don’t know any better will watch this and walk away thinking it’s the truth. Just STOP!!! It’s irresponsible!

[girlcop]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 12:09am

qolbinau said: "Sooo emotional during the death. Never had much interest in Williams before this show but will follow her through everything now. It has ignited an interest in Gwen Verdon I never had, and it's also helped me revisit Chicago - which up until now I had been over for about 10 years."

If you want to see her most amazing, heartbreaking performance I recommend the film Wendy and Lucy. I was devastated at the end of the film. 

[bear88]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 2:27am

As for creative liberties, I find that I am bothered by some and not by others - and usually that depends on how much I have invested in or know about the person beforehand. I was pretty annoyed by the Queen movie because of its flat, boring and dishonest portrayal of Freddie Mercury. I was more forgiving of Fosse/Verdon, in part because I realized they were in part going with the book's portrayal, in part because I knew little about Gwen Verdon beforehand, and in part because I never thought Bob Fosse was an angel (because he told me a long time ago in All That Jazz.)  

The final episode was a bit all over the place as it tried to cover too much ground. I found myself bored during some sections (Gwen's boyfriend breaks up with her - yawn; every scene involving Nicole) and really liked others.  

Rockwell grew on me as the series progressed. He had a tough role to play, especially to an audience like this one, and the writing often let him down. Williams was marvelous. (Note to self: Track down her past films.) Butz was terrific.

I found the overall portrayal of Fosse and Verdon's unique partnership fascinating, especially in its attempt to capture the creative process when a lot of people are involved. If I had one gripe, it was that the focus on the 1970s naturally discounted the part of their career in which Verdon was the star. It would have been nice to see more of that, but it's understandable that the focus was on the prime of his career. 

[missthemountains]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 2:39am

I think Reinking is blowing serious smoke out of her ass in saying: “I know he has a reputation for being abusive, but he’s not. That’s the thing that bothers me, is that I fear that they might make him abusive.". There are plenty of people who would poke holes in that statement, and I felt it was a tone deaf thing for her to say. 

I understand why most purists wouldn't like the show, and if I felt I had even a remote sense of expertise on Fosse or Verdon's life, I would likely feel similar. It was not a perfect show, but a well performed one. I think that Rockwall had really hard work cut out for him and that he rose to the occassion. There were times where Fosse felt a bit too droll, but I think that's also just who he really was after all the stress and drug use, so in many ways, it felt realistic to me. I still wish we got more PIPPIN, but I understand why we didn't. Tangentially related, I was just reading about the author of the original Chicago play, Maurine Watkins, whose face apparently started deteriorating at the end of her life and she walked around in a veil. I'm sure this is covered in the book, which I still haven't read, but did Verdon see the play on Broadway in the 20's and had been chasing after it for that long? It seems like it didn't even do well originally at the time, and with someone as cooky as Maurine Watkins (who also became a Born Again Christian late in life?) it surprises me that she really stuck with it and didn't try and seek out another vehicle. 

I really loved the inclusion of Nicole in the narrative. It added a sense of humanity to the piece, which I felt was really trying to do good to the many women in Bob's life. I too wish it had explored Gwen post-Fosse, and think that in and of itself would've been a fantastic episode, but I felt the ending was pretty graceful, all in all.