First musical not to have an overture- Page 2

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Posted: 7/4/07 at 11:36pm

While it's not an "overture" isn't the Carousel Waltz pretty close?

[kyleorlando]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 12:49am

Pippin and Hair didn't have overtures. They came along before A Chorus Line.

Updated On: 7/5/07 at 12:49 AM

[mikem]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 1:05am

I'm curious -- can anyone think of some musicals that have long stretches at the beginning before any music is heard at all? I'm hard pressed to think of one.

Updated On: 7/5/07 at 01:05 AM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 2:08am

Marvin Hamlisch wrote the CHORUS LINE overture himself. He gladly admits that it was horrible. You can see a clip of him playing it on you tube. He says something like "You'll see why it was cut."

[B3TA07]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 2:17am

^Well, I know nothing about A Chorus Line, and I'm sure all the hub-hub about it not needing an overture etc. are true, but couldn't he just write a better one?

[bk]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 2:50am

Well, since no one has mentioned one of the most famous overtureless shows, Hello, Dolly! The original production had no overture - just the famous four-bar intro to Call On Dolly. An overture was added for the first revival, but there wasn't one during the entire original run of the show at the St. James.

[mikeyb16]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 8:38am

I don't think WICKED has an overture, unless I'm mistaken and they've used it for the show's first number.

I know Lion King doesn't have one, it didn't when I saw the show in London last year.

I love overtures, can't quite explain it but the Music used in them are fantastic.

My favourte is the Beauty & The Beast and I also love it's Entr'acte.

I also love the overutre that was used in the National UK Tour's Cameron Mackintosh & Trevor Nunn Production of 'My Fair Lady'.

[Princeton78]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 8:49am

Company has a very very brief overture, it's accompanied by the creepy "Bobby" chant. You can hear it clearly on the OBC and 1995 Roundabout cast recordings.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 8:51am

I thought the "Bobby" chant was part of the song Company.

[Tom148502]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 8:54am

Mikem asked

"I'm curious -- can anyone think of some musicals that have long stretches at the beginning before any music is heard at all? I'm hard pressed to think of one. "

Lady in the Dark

[Princeton78]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 8:59am

When you are looking at the full score, it's listed as the overture.

[sondhead]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 9:14am

"Usually, the Overture is the work of the orchestrator, not the composer. The composer might have a hand in the routine or layout, but very few composers actually did the actual work. "

The Overture can really be the work of almost anyone. Yes, the orchestrator often does it but composers have been known to do them as well. Sondheim comes to mind and also Hamlisch. I don't know about They're Playing Our Song, but I'm pretty sure he wrote Chorus Line's based on the article written about the matter and the fact that he conducts it at concerts.

And yes, I love the entr'acte to "They're Playing Our Song" as well and thus anticipated the Overture on the London Cast Recording... I was disappointed.

[Princeton78]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 9:15am

I read the article and it lists Cats and Miss Saigon as having overtures that didn't' work, I think in Cats especially, the Overture is one of the best pieces in the show.

[sondhead]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 9:18am

Well Husk, let's compare.

Your message:
"A Chorus Line" has an overture, Bennet decided to not use it, and therefore it's not in the show, in any format. Back when the revival's recording came out there was an article in the NY Times about the loss of the overture, and while "A Chorus Line" is usually credited as the first, I want to say there were 3 or 4 shows prior that did not have one. Does "Company" have one??"

My message:
"I read that article. It was ridiculous. It obviously gave no mind to the purpose of an overture as anything other than 3 minutes of music at the beginning of a show. Anyone who has seen A Chorus Line would know that an overture would feel completely out of place there.

Anyone who's heard the Chorus Line overture also know how poor it is. Hamlisch has never been a good overture writer. The "They're Playing Our Song" Overture is terrible as is "Smile"s."

Outlines--
Yours:
--Chorus Line had an overture Bennett chose not to use
--An article published around the time of the revival talks about it
--ACL is credited as the first overtureless show overlooking several before it
--Does Company have an overture?

Mine:
--That article seemed to miss the artistic purpose of an overture in musical theatre
--An overture in Chorus Line would have been bizarre
--It's also just not a good overture
--Neither are the overtures to other Hamlisch scores


Seem pretty different to me, but thanks for unnecessarily being a jerk!

[philcrosby]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 9:39am

Despite its presence on the cast recordings, HELLO DOLLY! never used an overture on Broadway.

Some other shows (pre-CHORUS LINE) without traditional overtures:
FIDDLER ON THE ROOF
CAROUSEL
HAIR
1776
FOLLIES
COMPANY
PACIFIC OVERTURES
WEST SIDE STORY
THE SOUND OF MUSIC

[JRybka]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 9:43am

Recently in Washington, DC at the They're Playing Our Song Again! concert at the Kennedy Center, Marvin Hamlish spoke of A Chorus Line not having an overture and how it was not right to have one. He also spoke of how he loves loves loves overtures as they set the tone, make one more excited for a show and get everyone ready (I am paraprasing here...). He then said that if he had an overture for A Chorus Line, this is how it would have been...and then proceeded us to do a nice 5 Minute "overture" of A Chorus Line with the symphony.


And I have to totally disagree with the person about They're Playing Our Song... I enjoy the Overture/Entre Act very very much.

[sondhead]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 9:45am

Just to reiterate.. I too love the entr'acte

I hate the *overture*, which is not on the Broadway album. Only the London one.

[vmlinnie]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 10:01am

I too love Overtures.

Wicked does not have an overture.

Carousel didn't originally, although the waltz could count. the Revivals sometimes did.

I have been writing a show, and I write and will write my own overtures and entr'actes. It's a slightly lazy sign if a composer can't be bothered to do at least that. I do the orchestrations too.

[artscallion]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 10:11am

Anyone Can Whistle - 1964

Really, there are so many that predate A Chorus Line. Now it's just a matter of narrowing it down to the first. Does anyone know of an online listing of all broadway musicals, in date order? I know about IBDB but you have to search one season at a time with that, unless there's another element to that site I'm not aware of.

[Tom148502]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 10:16am

There's Richard Norton's 3-Volune Chronology of American Musical Theatre which lists credits, casts and scores, to the extent possible, for Amerucan musicals from 1750 up through 2001, which I own.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 10:21am

"I don't think WICKED has an overture, unless I'm mistaken and they've used it for the show's first number.

I know Lion King doesn't have one, it didn't when I saw the show in London last year."

And both of these shows came out LONG AFTER A Chorus Line, making their presence in this thread irrelevant, since the topic is "First musical not to have an overture."

[Dollypop]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 10:26am

The original production of HELLO, DOLLY! (1964) didn't have an overture. Gower Champion hated them because audiences tended to talk through them. (They still do) It wasn't until the Pearl Bailey recording that Jerry Herman added an overture--for the recording only. When the show was revived in 1976 Herman put an overture in place because he always felt the show should have one.

You'll recall that when Champion took over the staging of IRENE, there already was an overture but he added stage business while the music was being played.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 11:28am

I'm probably wrong on this, but I have a vague memory that the 1927 production of SHOWBOAT has no overture. Can anyone confirm that?

[Broadwaynut81]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 11:32am

I know its not the FIRST musical not to, but if I remember correctly Into the Woods has no overture or entr'acte... it just starts with "Once.."

Just wondering...

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 7/5/07 at 11:45am

Jerry Herman is a big fan of the overture. He feels it makes unknown music "familiar" to the audience, so that when they actually hear the songs, they are more likely to enjoy them. Gower Champion's opinion of overtures is pretty silly, since, getting people to their seats and settled down is exactly the purpose of an overture. People tend to be talking while doing that. Much better they do that during an overture than during the actual opening moments of the show!