Is Kinky's Score Really Better Than Matilda's?- Page 2

[disneybroadwayfan22]

Posted: 7/11/13 at 11:55pm

I have to say: No, Matilda is MUCH better. I do like Kinky Boots' score. It is fun and entergetic. I have Just Be in my head right now. However, I loved Matilda's score immediately when I heard it! Matilda's lyrics should have been the Tony-winner. The Matilda soundtrack is defientely the best soundtrack in years.

Listen to When i Grow Up, School Song, Revolting Children, and Naughty. How did the poppish Kinky Boots beat the WITTY, beautiful lyrics? At the Tonys, Everyone Say Yeah (or the performance) did nothing for me. When I Grow Up moved me to tears when I saw the show live. There's a reason why Cyndi wasn't nominated for Best Lyrics at the Drams Desk, which Tim won (for a GREAT reason)

Like I said, no offense to Ms. Lauper, but I think Cyndi only won because of her name and the fact that she would be the first single woman to win Best Score. If it was a random person who wrote the same, exact score, I guarantee that Tim would have won.

[gchris11]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:19am

I saw Matilda in London before it opened here and I heard early music from Kinky Boots online. I was not taken with either. But hearing and seeing them both in NYC, I like Kinky so much more. Matilda has one good song IMHO. I like almost the whole Kinky Score. I have not heard the cast recording of either show. So this opinion is based solely in seeing both shows in the theaters.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:46am

I understand Matilda's lyrics are sublime. Unfortunately I couldn't make out 90% of them on stage, at the Tony's, or in the recording.

[hanabana]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:55am

I have both recordings and listened through both of them. And I have to say that Kinky Boots' score really is the better one in my opinion. Matilda has great and creative lyrics as many have mentioned, but the score is not memorable to me. After listening to the Matilda recording, I do not really feel the desire to listen through it all again. Kinky Boots, on the other hand, has many great songs in its cast recording. I have listened to the Kinky Boots cast recording multiple times, and still enjoy it. So I think that Kinky Boots' score is better than Matilda's.

[BrerBear]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 2:22am

I understand Matilda's lyrics are sublime. Unfortunately I couldn't make out 90% of them on stage, at the Tony's, or in the recording.

Kinky Boots' Best Friend, if you can't even make 90% of the Matilda lyrics out on the recording, perhaps a hearing aid is in order.

Anyways, although I loved Cyndi growing up, I agree with others that the score was just generic pop. She won on her name and the easiness of the music. There's an audience for that simplicity, for sure, or Mamma Mia wouldn't be packing them in, either.

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 11:25am

Although this has been discussed before, this is a subject I feel quite passionately about and must add in my two cents…

For me, this question is a no-brainer: The “Matilda” score if far superior to the “Kinky” score in every way.

It seems (at least in this thread) that nearly everyone agrees that the “Matilda” lyrics are smarter, wittier, and more clever than “Kinky.” This, yes, is a big reason I feel it reigns over “Kinky,” however to determine which is a better musical score, you have to look at which serves the musical itself better (moving the storyline along, giving us insight into the characters, etc.) and, once again, “Matilda” takes the cake.

As others have said, the “Kinky” lyrics are so generic that we barely get to know the characters through them. With just a few minor tweaks, you could place this score into a new musical with a new plot and it could serve the story/characters just as well. I have said it in other threads, but the “Kinky” score plays like a jukebox musical: the songs work well enough, but don’t feel specific to the character(s) or situation.

Musically, yes “Kinky” is pleasing to the ear, but, as someone who LOVES pop music and is quite easily affected by it (and adores many pop musicals), the music does little for me and never moves me in any way. “Matilda,” on the other hand (even without the lyrics), plays with my emotions and immediately puts me in the emotions of the characters. “Matilda” has songs that are so heartbreaking to listen to (in the best way – the same feeling I get from many Sondheim songs) because they grab me immediately and make me feel so completely emotionally invested. The score, however, is not chock full of only deep-cutting musicality: there are also a few lighter or energizing songs that keep a perfect balance. The songs, however, always serve the scene and character above all else, though (which, in turn, serves the musical and the audience’s experience as a whole).

The “Matilda” score engages the audience more: makes the audience think and, therefore, brings the audience into the piece. You can be completely detached from the storyline of “Kinky” while listening to the score. Some may enjoy that detachment, but when we are talking about which is a better musical score, that detachment is a hindrance.

While I definitely understand that songs being catchy and being able to leave the theatre humming a tune raises the likability of music, I have always found it odd reasoning when discussing what is an excellent theatrical musical score. Catchy may mean the audience can take it in easier, but it doesn’t tell me if the score works well for a musical. However, if we ARE discussing the catchiness of the scores, “Matilda” would win this category for me as well. Multiple songs from “Matilda” are constantly stuck in my head. “Kinky” is certainly catchy, but all of the songs sound so similar that I couldn’t leave the theatre humming any tune, because they all ran together in my head.

does anyone know why the reason as to why they give the award to the score as a whole instead separate for lyrics and music?

Because Best Score should be for the score as a whole and how it fits and serves the musical as a whole. For me, as I stated above, Best Score doesn’t just mean the “best” songs. The score serves many very important purposes within a musical and Best Score should honor the scores that excels in all of these areas. It should not just be how intricate or difficult or accessible or likable the music is. If the “Matilda” score was as clever and intricate as it is, but didn’t serve the musical as whole, I would absolutely think it should not have won. But, musical scores must be written as a part of whole to truly succeed within the musical.

Like I said, no offense to Ms. Lauper, but I think Cyndi only won because of her name and the fact that she would be the first single woman to win Best Score. If it was a random person who wrote the same, exact score, I guarantee that Tim would have won.

I agree whole-heartedly and honestly don’t even think the “Kinky” score would have been a contender without Cyndi’s name attached.

All this being said, I think the “Kinky” score is fine for what it is. I enjoyed it when I saw it. But, when it comes to discussing truly great musical scores, “Kinky” would never come to mind for me.

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:02pm

I would have to respectfully disagree. Personally I don't think Matilda will hold up among really great scores either. Yes it has some lovely themes and some very clever lyrics but overall, a lot of its music is just unmemorable. I am not at all convinced of it's greatness. I am happy it captured you - it didn't capture me the same way..at all. But that's fine, we are all moved by different things.

Yes there are some wonderful songs in Matilda. I don't think you can get a better song than Naughty. Quiet is lovely. I also love When I grow up and the lyrics are charming but hey, it has the same four lines of music over and over again. And frankly, if I never hear "Revolting Children" again it will be too soon.

If I am looking from my emotional core, I was definitely captured more by the score from KB. Would I feel the same way if I just listened to the Kinky Boots score and compared it to the Matilda score without having seen either show and judged them on their own merits? I have no idea - I didn't have that experience. So can I be totally objective? Probably not.

I saw both shows before I heard their music and then have listened to the scores again. I still vote for KB. I don't agree with the idea that it would not have been recognized if it was not Cyndi Lauper's music. I strongly doubt that every single member of the audience that gets moved by whatever KB song they are hearing (which they do nightly) is thinking that "Wow, CL wrote this which is why I like it"..they are moved by the music (and performances of course) itself.

Again, I am not trying to convince anyone to my opinion. But the statement, it's a "no brainer" that Matilda is better seems to indicate that others who don't agree have no brains. They are certainly different types and styles of music...and we each have our preferences.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:18pm

I've admittedly listened to Matilda more than Kinky Boots, but I've listened to Kinky Boots at least five times and none of it sticks to me. It hits me as being really generic, while Matilda is one of the most strikingly original scores I think I've ever heard. It's scary, threatening, and darkly funny, which is great because when you get down to it Matilda is a blistering black comedy.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:51pm

Honestly, the lyrics of Kinky Boots were just as muddled and indiscernable for me (and my boyfriend) in the theatre. But who cares when there's Billy Porter in a stunning gown singing a completely unearned 11 o'clock number about something?

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:54pm

But the statement, it's a "no brainer" that Matilda is better seems to indicate that others who don't agree have no brains. They are certainly different types and styles of music...and we each have our preferences.

Which is why I started that sentence “For me.” For me, it is a no brainer: I, personally, wouldn’t even have to think about the comparison. Not ever trying to damn another’s opinion or assert that my opinion has more credibility than another’s.

I appreciate all opinions and I appreciate that we each get to express ours and explain why we feel that way.

I strongly doubt that every single member of the audience that gets moved by whatever KB song they are hearing (which they do nightly) is thinking that "Wow, CL wrote this which is why I like it"…they are moved by the music (and performances of course) itself.

I definitely don’t think every person moved by the music is only moved because they know it’s a Cyndi Lauper song. When I said that I thought that the fact that Cyndi wrote this score had a lot to do with it winning, I meant it in terms of knowing that she had a lot of fans within the Tony voters. Also, I think there was all lot of hype surround her and this score because it was a beloved pop singer who wrote a score that was decent. I think the excitement of Lauper overcoming this hurdle of pop/rock singer transition to musical composer (something not many can do with such ease) may have influenced some voters (AKA, some may say the score is brilliant for a first time composer, but would say that it is only okay if it came from a veteran composer…and, even if this is true, that is not necessarily how the Best Score should be awarded, in my opinion…I don’t think who wrote it or the circumstances surrounding it should really play a part in voting.) I also remember reading somewhere (I can’t remember if it was in a review or someone mentioned it on here) the idea that because the “Kinky” songs do sound distinctively like Lauper, that can automatically make audiences members relate it to Lauper songs they love and, therefore, immediately enjoy the songs more because of a nostalgic feeling. We could argue that this is part of the whole experience and therefore should be taken into account when a voter is making his/her decision, but, for me, it feels more like a something that could cloud an audience member from taking in the score on its own.

Of course, this is all speculation and all just opinion. Awards and what is “better” is all subjective. We can try to make it as objective as possible (taking a look at structure and such), but, even that is subjective in the end. I can appreciate that I got something out of “Matilda” that another person got out of “Kinky Boots” and I love being able to discuss this. Never meant to offend anyone.

But who cares when there's Billy Porter in a stunning gown singing a completely unearned 11 o'clock number about something?

Kad, this really perfectly sums up how I feel about the entire show of "Kinky" in general.

[goldenboy]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 3:04pm

I don't like either score. Kinky Boots is reminiscent of everything before it and Matilda's score is annoying.

[newintown]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 3:19pm

For me, Matilda is an easy win. I play several songs frequently. Fun, quirky, specific lyrics that catch the ear, and music that goes to interesting places harmonically.

I've listened to Kinky twice (three times if you count being at the show), and probably never will again. I find the music to be almost unbearably monotonous and the lyrics generic and, at worst, vague and sentimental.

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 4:01pm

Music and lyrics were separate categories through 1971 when Sondheim won for Best Lyrics and Best Score for Company. The following year the categories were bundled into Best Score (that was the ear of Follies). The reason for the change was people grumbling about the impossibility of divorcing the music from the lyrics, that a score should be taken as whole. Now it seems people are grumbling in the opposite direction. Everything's cyclical.

[forgetmenotnyc]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 5:30pm

No. Matilda is BETTER in all regards. Some kind of Pro Cyndi anti-British 'down with Matilda' backlash took place.

[AvenueQResident]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 6:50pm

"Some kind of Pro Cyndi anti-British 'down with Matilda' backlash took place."

Don't want to dispute every Tony voter's choice, but I'm not at all surprised if this was the general consensus.

I think Matilda is a much better crafted score, and it seems to me that it lost out due to a love and fawning for the local homegrown talent.

Updated On: 7/12/13 at 06:50 PM

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 7:49pm

Listening to Miracle and I think this is my favorite score since Next to Normal.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 7:59pm

I hate when people dismiss accessibility as a bad thing. Didn't Sondheim once say that he would've never thought to write "Oh what a beautiful morning, oh what a beautiful day" as a lyric, but upon reflection, that it was brilliance and sometimes there is absolutely a craft and an intelligence to lyrics that aren't entirely about showing off one's ability to be clever with words? To me, that's what a lot of Matilda felt like. It felt like someone was proving to me how smart they were and how great they were at wordplay and using every trick in their arsenal because that's their idea of "good" and I felt like the emotional impact and the "feeling" given by music suffered greatly because of it.

I'm not going to claim Kinky Boots is a great masterpiece that will be taught in colleges 50 years from now, but there is more than a little something to be said for a score that invites you in. More than that, it is incredibly difficult to write something "catchy" that sticks in your head. Not every composer could write music as catchy as Cyndi's. And I'm sure Cyndi would admit that Tim Minchin's style of wordplay isn't something she feels as comfortable doing. The point being that those who prefer Matilda and who seem to thing it's obvious that there is more craft or that objectively there is more work in that score are just being elitist, snobby, and silly. It is, ultimately, a taste issue, and anyone who thinks that there are hard and fast rules about what makes one better than the other is giving their opinion quite a bit more weight than they should.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 8:41pm

I love catchy, poppy music.

That is not what I found in Kinky Boots. I couldn't hum you a song from that show if I had a gun to my head.

I went into the show expecting something like Hairspray- effervescent, fun, funny, catchy. What I got was a forgettable score that doesn't move the action OR comment on it, an extremely weak book (and remarkably unfunny), boots that got entrance applause, and an ending that only makes sense if you interpret it as Stark Sands getting a concussion when he falls on the runway and hallucinating everything.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 9:44pm

...Yes. And clearly, other people felt very differently about the show and did find it hummable and catchy. Hence why it is mostly a taste issue and no one should feel superior for having an opinion on it one way or the other.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 9:56pm

It's sort of unfortunate these two musicals wound up going head-to-head like this because they're so wildly different - a venn diagram of people who love Matilda and people who love Kinky Boots isn't going to have a lot of overlap.

[N2N Nate.]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 9:57pm

Nah.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 10:11pm

I think I ask this every single time there is a MATILDA vs. KINKY thread but why does it have to come down between these two shows/scores/etc.? What if we didn't love either score?

[gchris11]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 10:17pm

Because the Matilda Clan is still pissed off that Kinky won more Tony Awards, but that is just my guess.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 10:19pm

Because the arbitrary nature of an annual Awards show system in which a certain calendar period is set and entrants within that period are compared against each other in an arbitrary (not to mention political and far from perfect) competition demands it, Headband.

I'm happy to consider MATILDA without considering KINKY or vice versa. I imagine many are.

It would be kind of fun to watch heads explode to start threads about shows that weren't head-to-head. MEMPHIS won the Tony but NEWSIES didn't; do people really think MEMPHIS was better than NEWSIES or was it a fix because NEWSIES didn't open in the same arbitrarily-defined calendar period?

[Up In One]

Posted: 7/13/13 at 5:50am

By now we know we each have our favorites and I can begin by telling you I found Matilda unengaging but beautifully staged and designed. The score while having two or three very good tunes (When I Grow Up, School Song, Revolting Children, and Naughty) and complex lyrics did nothing to engage me in whatever the goal of the show was.

Kinky Boots was a blue collar musical with a blue collar score - brilliantly apropos. Matilda was a composer being overly clever with song structures that were underdeveloped. Does he get points for degrees of difficulty? Yes; but no tens like Sondheim, or Yeaston, or even Kander & Ebb. A brilliant debut but just not as successful as Lauper's. I look forward to his next theatrical venture and I hope its more political like his cabaret compositions. Those land more solidly than anything he was contracted for in Matilda.

I can play the entire Kinky Boots CD (Minus Stark Sands two solos) over and over again. I am constantly skipping songs on Matilda. (Note to self create a listenable playlist of Matilda songs). I feel the Kinky Boots score serves the play and elevates it better than Matilda's score. Matilda's staging elevates the play.

I do like my theatre on the serious side and Matilda will not be added to my list which includes Follies, Light in the Piazza, Spring Awakening, Falsettos, 1776. Kinky Boots joins the more lighthearted and thoroughly enjoyable and eminently listenable shows like Little Shop, Chicago, Hair, Dreamgirls, A Chorus Line that I can listen to over and over again.

PS: The alphabet school song in Matilda comes nowhere close to other great theatre list songs like Hair's Color Spade and Aint Got No and Rent's La Vie Bohem