KINKY BOOTS to win the Tony over MATILDA? — Page 4
#77
Posted: 5/7/13 at 12:28pm
"They are both huge, big splashy new musicals. They are essentially the same kind of show. No underdog at all."
For quite a while, Matilda was widely predicted to be a mega-hit and a shoe-in for the Tony, based in large part on its tremendous London success. Kinky Boots' buzz followed its Broadway opening.
For quite a while, Matilda was widely predicted to be a mega-hit and a shoe-in for the Tony, based in large part on its tremendous London success. Kinky Boots' buzz followed its Broadway opening.
#78
Posted: 5/7/13 at 12:28pm
I think it is silly to take two recently-opened shows that both got critical praise and are doing comparable box office figures and somehow discern one is doing better than the other and will do better in the long run.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#79
Posted: 5/7/13 at 12:28pm
I think Cyndi Lauper's score for Kinky Boots is the best pop/rock score for a musical since Hedwig.
#80
Posted: 5/7/13 at 12:50pm
As someone who has seen both shows and saw KB in chicago and NYC several times. I can say that while some changes to the book were mmade to clarify some of the gaps, and a song was changed - these did not fix what needed to be fixed. Don't get me wrong, I really like this show and some of my friends are paying their rent from this. Ultimately, I think KB used the Chicago to Bway transition to double down on FUN - to an earlier point, they stopped trying to be preachy and added more glitz. The second act change of character by charlie is still under developed, the Boxing Match/What-A-Man are still pointless songs, the fiance is still a waste of a delicious actress, etc., etc., etc. BUT Jerry knows how to construct a show -the catchy tunes come at just the right time - and by the time the entire cast walks down in boots (even the fiance!) you say, "ah f--k it" and get on your feet and dance.
All that said, I preferred Matilda. To me, it was just a better package.
All that said, I preferred Matilda. To me, it was just a better package.
"Observe how bravely I conceal this dreadful dreadful shame I feel."
#81
Posted: 5/7/13 at 12:57pm
Sorry to jump in, but someone mentioned a few pages back that Pippin will win best set over Matilda? I don't understand this thinking, besides the fact that Pippins set really ties together the whole "circus" theme. Matilda has the best set I have ever seen on broadway, IMO.
Otherwise, I loved both shows equally. I think each had their highs and lows. Would love either to win in the end. Honestly, I truly want Bring It On to win!
Otherwise, I loved both shows equally. I think each had their highs and lows. Would love either to win in the end. Honestly, I truly want Bring It On to win!
#82
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:03pm
While Matilda is the better show in my opinion, it doesn't need to win the Tony for best musical. It will still be a long running sucessful hit. I just dont see how Kinky Boots is deserving of best musical though.
#83
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:03pm
To Michael Bennett...
I work on Broadway which is why I don't aspire to being a producer so that I can suffer losses which average 75%-80% of all musicals produced. With all due respect (loved your work on A CHORUS LINE) I happen to know a thing or two about the business.
1.) MATILDA, as a physical production is way more costly than KINKY BOOTS
2.) MATILDA, in terms of running crew costs, is more costly than KINKY BOOTS
3.) MATILDA, in terms of weekly rentals for equipment, is way more costly than KINKY BOOTS
4.) MATILDA, with multiple children and all of the additional expenses that this entails (multiple child wranglers, schooling, additional rehearsal costs etc.) is way more costly than KINKY BOOTS
5.) Some if these very same expenses eventually became the downfall of BILLY ELLIOTT
And MATILDA'S average ticket price has been lower than KINKY since opening...
Don't underestimate the vested interests of voters who make money by touring and presenting shows and don't underestimate the possibility of a backlash due to BILLY ELLIOTT... a show which burned many people who assumed that it was a sure thing.
I work on Broadway which is why I don't aspire to being a producer so that I can suffer losses which average 75%-80% of all musicals produced. With all due respect (loved your work on A CHORUS LINE) I happen to know a thing or two about the business.
1.) MATILDA, as a physical production is way more costly than KINKY BOOTS
2.) MATILDA, in terms of running crew costs, is more costly than KINKY BOOTS
3.) MATILDA, in terms of weekly rentals for equipment, is way more costly than KINKY BOOTS
4.) MATILDA, with multiple children and all of the additional expenses that this entails (multiple child wranglers, schooling, additional rehearsal costs etc.) is way more costly than KINKY BOOTS
5.) Some if these very same expenses eventually became the downfall of BILLY ELLIOTT
And MATILDA'S average ticket price has been lower than KINKY since opening...
Don't underestimate the vested interests of voters who make money by touring and presenting shows and don't underestimate the possibility of a backlash due to BILLY ELLIOTT... a show which burned many people who assumed that it was a sure thing.
#84
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:06pm
Corky -- I'm not arguing any of that -- only the appeal of KINKY BOOTS in an international market.
#85
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:15pm
Can you provide any back up for those financial claims corky?
It sounds like a lot of supposition to me.
It sounds like a lot of supposition to me.
....but the world goes 'round
#86
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:22pm
"I'm not arguing any of that -- only the appeal of KINKY BOOTS in an international market."
I could easily see European, Asian & South American audiences going for it.
I could easily see European, Asian & South American audiences going for it.
#87
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:24pm
As someone who has seen both shows and saw KB in chicago and NYC several times. I can say that while some changes to the book were mmade to clarify some of the gaps, and a song was changed - these did not fix what needed to be fixed.
Right, this is the only thing I have heard of the changes. That there are few and the things they did change were not what needed changing.
Right, this is the only thing I have heard of the changes. That there are few and the things they did change were not what needed changing.
#88
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:32pm
Correction -- I should say the appeal of KINKY BOOTS in relation to the appeal of MATILDA in an international market.
MATILDA will have a global shelf life equal to something like ANNIE, in my opinion. The fact that this particular production costs what it costs won't effect it being done in countless international smaller productions for the next gazillion years.
KINKY BOOTS will do fine around the world. It will do fine.
MATILDA will have a global shelf life equal to something like ANNIE, in my opinion. The fact that this particular production costs what it costs won't effect it being done in countless international smaller productions for the next gazillion years.
KINKY BOOTS will do fine around the world. It will do fine.
#89
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:33pm
The "downfall" of Billy Elliot? While not a perpetually running success, it still managed to recoup its investment and run two years subsequently, making profit all the while.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#90
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:40pm
"The things they did change were not what needed changing."
Just curious: How would you account for its success on Broadway, then?
Just curious: How would you account for its success on Broadway, then?
#91
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:47pm
Just curious: How would you account for its success on Broadway, then?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, great sales (and even good audience reaction) do not automatically mean a show fixed its flaws or is artistically worthy. Take “Mamma Mia!” for example. Extremely successful in terms of its box office and loved all over the world, but it is rare to find someone who truly finds this show not full of flaws.
(For the record, I am not comparing “Kinky” to “Mamma Mia!” in terms of a quality of show - “Kinky” would win that competition in a heartbeat.)
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, great sales (and even good audience reaction) do not automatically mean a show fixed its flaws or is artistically worthy. Take “Mamma Mia!” for example. Extremely successful in terms of its box office and loved all over the world, but it is rare to find someone who truly finds this show not full of flaws.
(For the record, I am not comparing “Kinky” to “Mamma Mia!” in terms of a quality of show - “Kinky” would win that competition in a heartbeat.)
#92
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:51pm
The "downfall" of BILLY ELLIOT is the downfall of live theatre: it can't run forever. Not even PHANTOM is going to run forever. Some shows run for 10+ years, some for a couple weeks, and some have a very healthy and respectable couple years or so.
Neither MATILDA nor KINKY BOOTS are bad shows. They clearly both have strong ticket sales, strong word of mouth, and leave audiences feeling a wide range of emotions. On those merits alone, they're both a success. The Tonys - and, really, all award shows - are ridiculous and have no real bearing on what's good and what's not good. Crappy shows have won awards over amazing shows just as often as the "deserving" winner has won over the "undeserving" (which is all subjective anyway).
In my opinion, MATILDA is an extraordinarily well-crafted piece of musical theatre across the board in every single aspect (except sound design). It's not a children's musical. It's a musical about children starring, primarily, children. Just as the book is not a children's book, but a novel written for children that anyone who reads it can take something from. In fact, I just finished reading it for the first time since I was about 6 last week and it is still just as wonderfully written to me now in my 20's as it was listening to my mom reading it to me as a child. It's universal. KINKY BOOTS may be about acceptance and forgiveness, but it is a "gay musical" about "gay things" at the end of the day. The design (what I've seen of it) is uninventive and the score, while fun and catchy, is mindless. It is not the whole package that MATILDA is.
Neither MATILDA nor KINKY BOOTS are bad shows. They clearly both have strong ticket sales, strong word of mouth, and leave audiences feeling a wide range of emotions. On those merits alone, they're both a success. The Tonys - and, really, all award shows - are ridiculous and have no real bearing on what's good and what's not good. Crappy shows have won awards over amazing shows just as often as the "deserving" winner has won over the "undeserving" (which is all subjective anyway).
In my opinion, MATILDA is an extraordinarily well-crafted piece of musical theatre across the board in every single aspect (except sound design). It's not a children's musical. It's a musical about children starring, primarily, children. Just as the book is not a children's book, but a novel written for children that anyone who reads it can take something from. In fact, I just finished reading it for the first time since I was about 6 last week and it is still just as wonderfully written to me now in my 20's as it was listening to my mom reading it to me as a child. It's universal. KINKY BOOTS may be about acceptance and forgiveness, but it is a "gay musical" about "gay things" at the end of the day. The design (what I've seen of it) is uninventive and the score, while fun and catchy, is mindless. It is not the whole package that MATILDA is.
#93
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:55pm
I would account for it's success on Broadway in that it is a fun show. As I said, "BUT Jerry knows how to construct a show -the catchy tunes come at just the right time - and by the time the entire cast walks down in boots (even the fiance!) you say, "ah f--k it" and get on your feet and dance."
I don't think KB is a bad show, it could have been great. I was on my feet clapping/dancing each time I saw it. That said, there are many successful shows on Broadway that have many things that needed to be fixed that were not fixed. Chiquita tell me what's wrong!
I knew it would be a success, and happy it is a success, not when then Times review came out, but when I read reviews on TV news websites and other local newspapers and saw the "comments" at the bottom with many average theatre goers, praising how much fun they had.
Ultimately, tourists do not care about the sloppy book, the mis-used characters, or anything else. They are just humming the Sex in the Heel! And that is great.
But given the choice between KB and Matilda I would choose Matilda.
I don't think KB is a bad show, it could have been great. I was on my feet clapping/dancing each time I saw it. That said, there are many successful shows on Broadway that have many things that needed to be fixed that were not fixed. Chiquita tell me what's wrong!
I knew it would be a success, and happy it is a success, not when then Times review came out, but when I read reviews on TV news websites and other local newspapers and saw the "comments" at the bottom with many average theatre goers, praising how much fun they had.
Ultimately, tourists do not care about the sloppy book, the mis-used characters, or anything else. They are just humming the Sex in the Heel! And that is great.
But given the choice between KB and Matilda I would choose Matilda.
"Observe how bravely I conceal this dreadful dreadful shame I feel."
#94
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:56pm
Also, regarding the telekinesis, the movie made Matilda out to be some kind of Carrie-gone-good. In the book, while it is not as last minute as it is in the musical, her "powers" are only employed sparingly. As they are in the musical. There is simply no way to musicalize an entire scene of Matilda sitting on a bed for hours, staring at an inanimate object, trying to get it to move. The reason it seems more prevalent in the book is because of the introspective description of what it does, physically, to Matilda (the hotness behind the eyes, the tiny hands shooting out of them, etc.), which is shortened into one song: "Quiet".
#95
Posted: 5/7/13 at 1:57pm
Sorry, I'm confused - you say you're not comparing Kinky Boots to Mama Mia, but wasn't it you who made the comparison? I was just trying to understand how you explain KB's success if, as you say, "the things they did change were not what needed changing." Forgive me - perhaps I missed the explanation.
#96
Posted: 5/7/13 at 2:06pm
I said I was not comparing "Kinky" to "Mamma Mia!" in terms of show quality (while I think both have their flaws and issues, "Kinky"'s are not as abundant). I was using “Mamma Mia!” to showcase how box office success does not necessarily equal a well-crafted show. Just because “Kinky” is doing very well in NYC does not automatically mean that it fixed issues that it had in Chicago. There are many other factors that can play into this (NYC audience reaction different from Chicago audience reaction, nicer reviews on Broadway, the “low expectation” factor everyone has been mentioning on here, etc.). Hope this helps to clarify what I meant.
And, if you’re talking success in terms of critics, you’ve got me. Chris Jones’ flip from fairly positive Chicago review to practically raving Broadway review had me confused, as I didn’t feel he was not able to fully explain what changes they actually made to make the show better for him (which is why I was hoping to find out some more details about the changes and only got a response that not many were made). I found it interesting because his Chicago review was quite detailed in what he felt should be changed, but he seemed to skim over whether or not these changes had been implemented when it opened on Broadway.
Once again, I do not wish any ill will to the show and I was pleasantly surprised to see the show receive such good reviews (always a happy thing), but seeing as the issues I felt the show had in Chicago seem to have not been changed, I just do not feel the show is worthy of the Best Musical award.
And, if you’re talking success in terms of critics, you’ve got me. Chris Jones’ flip from fairly positive Chicago review to practically raving Broadway review had me confused, as I didn’t feel he was not able to fully explain what changes they actually made to make the show better for him (which is why I was hoping to find out some more details about the changes and only got a response that not many were made). I found it interesting because his Chicago review was quite detailed in what he felt should be changed, but he seemed to skim over whether or not these changes had been implemented when it opened on Broadway.
Once again, I do not wish any ill will to the show and I was pleasantly surprised to see the show receive such good reviews (always a happy thing), but seeing as the issues I felt the show had in Chicago seem to have not been changed, I just do not feel the show is worthy of the Best Musical award.
#97
Posted: 5/7/13 at 2:16pm
I didn't compare KB to Mama Mia. KB is a much better show. I did, however, say that there were some things that needed to be fixed to make it a great show (in my opinion). These fixes however, were not things the average theatre goer cared about.
A show does not need to be great, or even good to be commercially successful - here is where I mentioned Mama Mia. And I guess Motown.
A show does not need to be great, or even good to be commercially successful - here is where I mentioned Mama Mia. And I guess Motown.
"Observe how bravely I conceal this dreadful dreadful shame I feel."
#98
Posted: 5/7/13 at 2:32pm
OOps I guess you didn't mean me. Oh well. I'm in Tech so . . .
"Observe how bravely I conceal this dreadful dreadful shame I feel."
#99
Posted: 5/7/13 at 2:51pm
I hate to have to say "trust me" regarding my comments concerning the MATILDA costs but these are facts not suppositions.
#100
Posted: 5/7/13 at 2:51pm
I hate to have to say "trust me" regarding my comments concerning the MATILDA costs but these are facts not suppositions.
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