Mandates need to end- Page 2

[whatever2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 11:38am

mikey2573: Since many who have refused vaccinations are doing so for religious or health purposes, I'm surprised there have been no lawsuits challenging these vaccine policies.

i don't think i've ever seen so many bits of misinformation packed into one sentence -- congratulations.

(1) only a very small percentage of anti-vaxxers cite religion as their basis (employees occasionally tried to hide behind this in response to employer mandates, admittedly with some success -- but that doesn't make the claims legitimate). moreover, no mainstream faith organization has claimed a religious basis for refusing to get jabbed (except for a few Catholic dioceses, who only ruled out certain vaccines for unrelated reasons), and several bodies have publicly stated there is no religious basis for refusing. so, religion is both a minor and unacceptable basis for refusing.

(2) similarly, legitimate health reasons for not getting vaxxed are a sliver of the population. "many" just don't fly ...

(3) there have been literally DOZENS of lawsuits challenging vaccine policies; with a couple of notable exceptions, they failed. wonder why???
 

Updated On: 3/12/22 at 11:38 AM

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 12:13pm

It should also be noted that, regardless of any mandate lifted by the mayor, if a store, for example, still wishes to check for vaccine status more power to them. The same can be said for theatres/ entertainment venues. I recently went to see Prayer for the French Republic at City Center, as well as an opera at The Met. This was after the mayor lifted the mandate that places (including entertainment venues) need to check for proof of vaccination.  Both venues, prior to mandates being lifted required not only vaccination proofs, but they both decided on their own to require boosters as well. And, they still do. 

Now, granted of course, both places have no connection to one another. Yet, they can still decide to keep up with their rules for patrons for as long as their little hearts want. I fear some people who attend the theatre may not understand this at first. Perhaps complaining, mentioning that either the ban is lifted and questioning why they are still being checked. Or, just overall not understanding the choice of what the establishment in question has the right to do what they feel comfortable doing. Just because the ban is lifted, doesn’t mean a magic wand has been waved and all goes back to how it was right away. 

And, the vaccines do work. I got covid over a couple of months since I got my second shot. And, thanks to the vaccine it felt like I had a SH*Tty case of the flu rather than a major covid illness for ten days. And, I know others who have had similar experiences despite being fully vacated as well. Unless you decide to walk around the city in a HAZMAT suite, there is always that chance. But, if you’re vaccinated the reaction you get is considerably far less than if you were’t vaccinated 

[stoptheworld38]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 1:05pm

I mostly disagree with the people who say they need to end now (although I do think/hope there's a good chance they won't be extended past the end of April) but I also disagree with the people who say they're going to last for ages more. It's simply not realistic to expect people to show vaccine proof and where masks in theatres for the rest of their lives. Mask mandates have dropped in many settings where risk is much higher than a theatre. (E.g grocery stores, for example, where people aren't required to show vax proof). The vast majority of data states that if you're fully vaccinated and boosted and don't have underlying health conditions, getting Covid (if you have symptoms at all) is about comparable to a cold, maybe the flu. Did Broadway mandate masks for colds and the flu? No. Did they require people to have a flu shot? No. I think at this point people have basically accepted that Covid is here to stay in some form maybe forever. It's not going away completely. But we also can't let it turn our lives upside down forever. As long as masks are required in theatres, I'll wear one. If I lived in the vicinity of NYC and had the financial capability to do so I'd be at a Broadway show every week - with a mask on. I don't enjoy wearing them (and I do have a documented condition which makes wearing one both physically and mentally harder for me than it does for the average person) but I respect and follow the rules, and my desire to see/support live theatre outweighs my adversities to having a mask on for a couple hours.  When the mandate is lifted (whenever that may be) I don't intend to keep wearing one, but I completely respect people who choose to. My guess though (and please don't come at me cause it's just a guess/hope) is that masks (and possibly vaccines) will be optional by summer.

[SFCowboy]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 1:36pm

mikey2573 said: "The only purpose for requiring proof of vaccination is to punish those who have not been vaccinated.

Unless you are wearing an N95 or something similar, to quote CNN's medical consultant Dr. Leana Wen, "cloth masks are little more than facial decorations". And most people who still wear masks are wearing cloth masks."

It's all about reducing risk. If I am at the theater, I want there to be a relatively low chance that someone sitting next to me has Covid. In the US currently the case rates for the unvaccinated are over 3 times higher than for vaccinated folks. That's significant to me. (It used to be 6X during Delta, but fell to 3X during Omicron.) (And interestingly, the difference between boosted and non-boosted has shrunk as to be minimal now.)
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

Masks also reduce the risk of transmission. Agreed that cloth masks aren't so effective, but they still offer partial effectiveness, like maybe 30%. And when we're *both* wearing one, there's a multiplier effect. (Sorry, I don't have references handy, but I can get some if anyone wants.) Surgical masks aren't so great either because of their poor fit. N95s, KN95s, and KF94s are pretty good at 90%+ effectiveness.  Fortunately in San Francisco, folks have gotten the message, and most (but not all) are wearing high-grade masks. And still, I'd rather have a 30% effective cloth mask next to me than no mask at all.

In the theater we're sitting next to the same people for 3 hours. There's an inherent risk. I just want to keep my risk as low possible, and so I appreciate an all-vaxed and all-masked audience. Eventually the Covid case numbers will be low enough that it won't matter to me so much, but I'm just not there yet. If the numbers continue to drop, then maybe in a couple of months (fingers crossed -- but I still have visions of last June, when we all thought it was over).

Interestingly, the SF Ballet is requiring vax+booster, and they also require an N95 or KN95. (They will give one to you if you don't have one.) So be careful what you wish for. Because another way to work with the "cloth masks are not effective" argument is to require the more uncomfortable N95s. (By the way, if you're looking for a more comfortable genuine US-made N95, the 3M Aura is not bad, at least for me. I'm using this more for my own protection when I need to go into crowded unmasked environments.)

bear88 - I went to Harry Potter at the Curran last night. They were still checking vaccination cards and requiring (and enforcing) masks. My guess is (but I don't know for sure) that most Bay Area theaters will continue their current protocols for a while yet. [Complete aside -- I had seen the two-show version twice, and I really liked this streamlined version, and I thought this production was excellent. I splurged on the front row of the mezzanine, and it was totally worth it.] 

Updated On: 3/12/22 at 01:36 PM

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 1:56pm

stoptheworld38 said: "Mask mandates have dropped in many settings where risk is much higher than a theatre. (E.g grocery stores, for example, where people aren't required to show vax proof)."

I think the big difference to keep in mind is the effect it can have if it spreads in a business.  I mean absolutely no disrespect to any grocery store workers, food service workers, etc., but the reality is, if four employees of a grocery store get sick, the entire store probably doesn't have to shut down for two weeks.  If four actors in a Broadway show get sick, there may not be enough coverage (or ability to train someone up quickly) to keep the show running and then they have to shut down (as someone else mentioned, just this week Hadestown had to cancel one performance and had to rely on Macbeth allowing Amber Gray out of rehearsals to be able to run this weekend).  So that's a main reason why I think theatres will be the last to drop any mandates.  Yes, it's less likely that an actor gets covid from someone having it in the audience than it is for a grocery store worker getting it from a customer, but the ramifications for the organization as a whole if it does happen are far greater.

EDIT: And literally as I write this, we see Hadestown has cancelled today's matinee because of it.  So once again, someone gets sick and the entire operation has to shut down.  That's the big difference when it comes to Broadway.

Updated On: 3/12/22 at 01:56 PM

[wick3d2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 2:00pm

Broadway61004 said: "stoptheworld38 said: "Mask mandates have dropped in many settings where risk is much higher than a theatre. (E.g grocery stores, for example, where people aren't required to show vax proof)."

I think the big difference to keep in mind is the effect it can have if it spreads in a business. I mean absolutely no disrespect to any grocery store workers, food service workers, etc., but the reality is, if four employees of a grocery store get sick, the entire store probably doesn't have to shut down for two weeks. If four actors in a Broadway show get sick, there may not be enough coverage (or ability to train someone up quickly) to keep the show running and then they have to shut down (as someone else mentioned, just this week Hadestown had to cancel one performance and had to rely on Macbeth allowing Amber Gray out of rehearsals to be able to run this weekend). So that's a main reason why I think theatres will be the last to drop any mandates. Yes, it's less likely that an actor gets covid from someone having it in the audience than it is for a grocery store worker getting it from a customer, but the ramifications for the organization as a whole if it does happen are far greater.

EDIT: And literally as I write this, we see Hadestown has cancelled today's matinee because of it. So once again, someone gets sick and the entire operation has to shut down. That's the big difference when it comes to Broadway."

Actually, four shows had to allow former Hadestown cast members* to get the shows going this week and it still wasn't enough with having to cancel 2 matinees this week. 

*jordan  - the wandered , mariand - wicked , afra - funny girl, & amber - macbeth 

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 2:25pm

I get my posts deleted for joking about Streisand's butt or mentioning G***h D*******y and this jackhole gets a whole thread?

BWW, you are failing as the purity and correctness gestapo.  

[wick3d2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 2:39pm

It doesn't matter if the vax/mask mandate is in place or not because either way, not everyone is going to be happy. You have party one who will only go to theatre with the mandate in place, party two who will go when everything is lifted, then party three that falls in between. If the League lifts the mandate, then party one will be irked, but if the League doesn't lift the mandate, then party two will be irked. We need to move away from the collective to focusing on the individual. If you want to wear a mask after the mandate is lifted, go for it. If you're comfortable not wearing a mask, then that's fine too. Don't worry who is or isn't vaccinated, or who is or isn't wearing a mask. Focus on yourself and do what needs to be done to keep you safe while at the theatre. 

[Mariavontrapp2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 2:49pm

I presume Broadway cast and crew members who have gotten Covid over the past few months have been vaxxed and boosted. Playing to houses of vaxxed and boosted patrons, right? 

So tell me again the point of a vaccine passport? To protect the vaccinated cast and crew? 

???

(Also - severity isn't really an argument. The argument has been transmission. If vaccinated people can get and transmit covid..again..what's the point?)

Updated On: 3/12/22 at 02:49 PM

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 3:02pm

Broadway61004 said: "stoptheworld38 said: "Mask mandates have dropped in many settings where risk is much higher than a theatre. (E.g grocery stores, for example, where people aren't required to show vax proof)."

I think the big difference to keep in mind is the effect it can have if it spreads in a business. I mean absolutely no disrespect to any grocery store workers, food service workers, etc., but the reality is, if four employees of a grocery store get sick, the entire store probably doesn't have to shut down for two weeks. If four actors in a Broadway show get sick, there may not be enough coverage (or ability to train someone up quickly) to keep the show running and then they have to shut down (as someone else mentioned, just this week Hadestown had to cancel one performance and had to rely on Macbeth allowing Amber Gray out of rehearsals to be able to run this weekend). So that's a main reason why I think theatres will be the last to drop any mandates. Yes, it's less likely that an actor gets covid from someone having it in the audience than it is for a grocery store worker getting it from a customer, but the ramifications for the organization as a whole if it does happen are far greater.

EDIT: And literally as I write this, we see Hadestown has cancelled today's matinee because of it. So once again, someone gets sick and the entire operation has to shut down. That's the big difference when it comes to Broadway."

This. EXACTLY THIS. So, while I agree with the person who posted this 100% I asked to the OP-are you more important than the performers? Are you more important than the people who would lose their pay, the ability to care for their families because their show closes? Think about Mrs. Doubtfire. They closed, most likely due to an abundance of caution....and now shows are being cancelled again. 

 

Broadway isn't gonna miss you if you don't go to the theater because you care more about yourself than them. But I do think some theaters in different states have lifted the proof of vaccination mandate. They do still require masks. This isn't a personal attack on anyone. This is making sure people stay safe, healthy and that the shows are able to keep going. They can't afford to close down again. So if you are SO concerned, stay home until they lift the mandates. Don't be so incredibly selfish. 

 

@Mariavontrapp2, if you're so pressed about having to show the vaccine passport, I'm guessing you're not vaccinated? So go to places where you don't have to be vaccinated. Also as I previously said, some venues are lifting the vaccine mandate, but they're still requiring masks. Hush. 

 

@wick3d2, AH okay so should it be a game of everyone for themselves? Is that basically what you're saying? That others should have the right to play with other peoples health? YES I know if you're going to the theater there's a risk anyway. But still. Wearing a mask, having the vaccine check-it's a way of ensuring people are more likely to stay safe instead of someone coming in who just recovered from COVID, say, and spreading it to someone who thought they'd be safe but what if they have an underlying health condition? COVID doesn't affect everyone the same way. It's not "just the flu" to everyone. 

 

Also--recently I have barely seen any cloth masks. I don't think I have in a while. People are wearing the KN95s. 

 

But I do also agree that no one will be happy whichever way this goes. But if we can protect everyone and keep shows up and running by having health measures in place, isn't that the priority? Or would those against the mandates prefer to see shows shut down again? Or actors out because of exposures? 

[wick3d2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 3:18pm

hearthemsing22 said: "But if we can protect everyone and keep shows up and running by having health measures in place, isn't that the priority? Or would those against the mandates prefer to see shows shut down again? Or actors out because of exposures?"

You do realize that these actors are still getting covid with these protocols in place, right? Why does the theatre care if I'm vaccinated or not when the actors on stage are still testing positive for covid? Your argument sounds like covid only exists at the threatre when these actors are going to many places outside of work (dr offices, grocery stores, public transportation, etc where covid exists there too btw) 

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 3:33pm

I can’t afford to keep buying NK95s, so when I can’t acquire any, I wear a disposable mask under a filtered fabric mask. Not 100%, but it is sometimes the best I can do. And I still enjoy the show, even more so knowing I am likely safe, and helping keep the cast and crew safe too.

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 3:37pm

wick3d2 said: "hearthemsing22 said: "But if we can protect everyone and keep shows up and running by having health measures in place, isn't that the priority? Or would those against the mandates prefer to see shows shut down again? Or actors out because of exposures?"

You do realize that these actors are still getting covid with these protocols in place, right? Why does the theatre care if I'm vaccinated or not when the actors on stage are still testing positive for covid? Your argument sounds like covid only exists at the threatre when these actors are going to many places outside of work (dr offices, grocery stores, public transportation, etc where covid exists there too btw)"

Obviously. But if you could do ONE THING, that isn't asking a lot of you, that doesn't hurt you to make sure there's less of a chance that performers would be out of a show, wouldn't you want to do that? Or are you so important that you feel you shouldn't have to? 

[Mariavontrapp2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 4:28pm

How does a healthy unvaccinated person in an audience threaten the health of a vaccinated and boosted cast member? 

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 4:29pm

Is the vaccine mandate for shows (at this point) performative? Yes absolutely. Same as the mask mandate to be honest. Like talked about above, most people are just wearing your standard surgical mask which isn't going to be doing much to prevent spread in the theatre. The casts aren't getting sick from the audience, it's coming from each other and their own private lives.

All that being said do I care whether they both stay in place or not? No, but I also don't think they're doing anything to prevent spready in the theatre.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 4:30pm

No Maria, No. 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 4:34pm

Mariavontrapp2 said: "How does a healthy unvaccinated person in an audience threaten the health of a vaccinated and boosted cast member?

Just because we're talking about theater doesn't mean we're just talking about the cast. Keep in mind the front of house staff, the box office staff...it was a case among the front of house staff that put a pause on Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?. Don't you think if there was an unvaccinated person, they could have been exposed elsewhere, they go to the theater, then spread it to that person? Doesn't matter how healthy someone is-COVID can affect anyone. 

And no, the vaccine mandate isn't performative. But also, as I've previously said, some venues are dropping the vaccine mandate. I foresee it happening more and more in the next few weeks/months, to be honest. When I've been to the theater recently I haven't seen surgical masks. I've seen KN95s or better fitting masks. Not those. Maybe once or twice. But I haven't seen those in the majority of audiences I've been in. 

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 4:54pm

hearthemsing22 said: "Just because we're talking about theater doesn't mean we're just talking about the cast. Keep in mind the front of house staff, the box office staff...it was a case among the front of house staff that put a pause on Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?. Don't you think if there was an unvaccinated person, they could have been exposed elsewhere, they go to the theater, then spread it to that person? Doesn't matter how healthy someone is-COVID can affect anyone."

The only thing that is going to protect a person from getting COVID is an N95 Mask. Flat out. That's it. Whether a person is vaccinated or not isn't going to change the likelihood of spread. Vaccine Mandates were a good vehicle to motivate people who were on the fence about the vaccine to get it, but those people have now fallen on one side or the other. So yes, it's performative.

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 5:04pm

TheatreFan4 said: "hearthemsing22 said: "Just because we're talking about theater doesn't mean we're just talking about the cast. Keep in mind the front of house staff, the box office staff...it was a case among the front of house staff that put a pause on Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?. Don't you think if there was an unvaccinated person, they could have been exposed elsewhere, they go to the theater, then spread it to that person? Doesn't matter how healthy someone is-COVID can affect anyone."

The only thing that is going to protect a person from getting COVID is an N95 Mask. Flat out. That's it. Whether a person is vaccinated or not isn't going to change the likelihood of spread. Vaccine Mandates were a good vehicle to motivate people who were on the fence about the vaccine to get it, but those people have now fallen on one side or the other. So yes, it's performative."

Right. So it's it's the performative nature of the masks, of the vaccine mandates, that has slowed the spread of the virus considerably since the whole thing started, then we saw the spike (several?), then the decline. Because they're performative. Right. What is the problem here? You show it, you move along and get the experience theater again. Why is that such a hassle? If you have a problem stay home until they don't require it. 

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 5:34pm

hearthemsing22 said: "Right. So it's it's the performative nature of the masks, of the vaccine mandates, that has slowed the spread of the virus considerably since the whole thing started, then we saw the spike (several?), then the decline. Because they're performative. Right. What is the problem here? You show it, you move along and get the experience theater again. Why is that such a hassle? If you have a problem stay home until they don't require it."

*God this board's quote system is such trash*

I've said at this point they're performative. Masked & Vaccinated audiences & Vaxxed Cast members did not stop a wide swath of shows of having to cancel weeks worth of performances because of COVID cases among their fully vaccinated cast & crew. I don't have a problem with mandates being there and will gladly comply, but that they're a bit unnecessary and didn't stop shows from having massive stalls once the omicron spike hit. The only protection me, you, or anyone else has against catching COVID is an adequate mask. Vaccine mandates do well to quell nerves for audiences attending the shows but as became very clear didn't actually put you in a better spot than if people around you were vaccinated or unvaccinated. 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 5:47pm

TheatreFan4 said: "hearthemsing22 said: "Right. So it's it's the performative nature of the masks, of the vaccine mandates, that has slowed the spread of the virus considerably since the whole thing started, then we saw the spike (several?), then the decline. Because they're performative. Right. What is the problem here? You show it, you move along and get the experience theater again. Why is that such a hassle? If you have a problem stay home until they don't require it."

*God this board's quote system is such trash*

I've said at this point they're performative. Masked & Vaccinated audiences & Vaxxed Cast members did not stop a wide swath of shows of having to cancel weeks worth of performances because of COVID cases among their fully vaccinated cast & crew. I don't have a problem with mandates being there and will gladly comply, but that they're a bit unnecessary and didn't stop shows from having massive stalls once the omicron spike hit. The only protection me, you, or anyone else has against catching COVID is an adequate mask. Vaccine mandates do well to quell nerves for audiences attending the shows but as became very clear didn't actually put you in a better spot than if people around you were vaccinated or unvaccinated."

I guess that's the best they can do right now...put peoples mind at ease. I guess it's a bit performative for the vaccinations, but that's part of the requirement right now. When they decide it's safe and shows don't have to bring in actors on loan from another performance (hi Amber Gray coming back to Hadestown) because of outbreaks, then they may change it. Until then...either go and show your proof, or just don't go if having to do so makes someone so uncomfortable/annoyed. 

[whatever2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 6:01pm

Mariavontrapp2 said: "How does a healthy unvaccinated person in an audience threaten the health of a vaccinated and boosted cast member?"

How do you solve a problem like Maria?

[whatever2]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 6:08pm

Mariavontrapp2: So tell me again the point of a vaccine passport? To protect the vaccinated cast and crew? So tell me again the point of a vaccine passport? To protect the vaccinated cast and crew? 

Precisely. It isn't all about you. In an intimate setting, you do this to protect others. if that's simply too much to ask, just avoid the intimate setting. Quit being so self-centered.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 7:02pm

dramamama611 said: "And I haven't seen people in cloth/homemade masks in months, so no...MOST people are not still wearing them."

I do see people in cloth masks, especially the "fashionable" sort. Sometimes they're double masking; often they're not. Also plenty of surgical masks worn below the nose (not in the theater though). I decided to go ahead and get more N95's but I'm still waiting to see what the vaccination check policies are like going forward before getting tickets to anything I can't cancel.

Where do you get your 3M Auras, SFCowboy? I think I'd prefer the round shape but right now I'm sticking with Gerson duckbills as I've gotten used to them and they're relatively affordable from reputable places. 

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 7:16pm

When it comes to discussions about covid mandates, be it on here or elsewhere, it typically devolves into a whole lot of "who shot John" monologues on both sides of the table, so I'll be as brief as I can.

I, too, am longing for the day where I can go to a theatre without a mask, and without having to worry about having my vaccination card. To long for that is not a crime. However, I'll go to a theatre with a peg leg and eye patch if I have to, if it means being able to sit in a theatre and watch art again. I remember during the shutdown, people saying "I don't care if I have to wear a mask; I just want to go to the theatre again." Personally, I'm still there. And I will be there, as long as masks are required.

I love the theatre, and long for my time there. Mask or no mask.