"No More 10 out of 12"- Page 2
"No More 10 out of 12"
#25
Posted: 10/13/21 at 6:39pmThe crew involved in 10 out of 12s are the show crew plus designers and their associates, creative team and their associates, cast, musicians, wranglers and tutors, stage managers… it’s everyone who works in the run of the show plus the people putting together the show.
#26
Posted: 10/13/21 at 6:56pm
This clearly spinning out of IATSE's strike authorization in its negotiations with AMPTP regarding their excessive and unreasonable scheduling on shoots.
It's forced crunch time in an attempt to save money. The tech could be done in shorter increments of time over more days, but we're operating in an industry that is exceedingly slow to change and is very beholden to tradition, and these sort of practices are perpetuated because it's believed to be the only viable way things can happen.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#27
Posted: 10/13/21 at 7:02pm
QueenAlice said: "Is the argument that there should be less performances per week or that the 8 performance week schedule should be consolidated to 6 days with 2 days off? Reducing the number of shows a week doesn't seem realistic."
I always understood that the Broadway schedule does actually allow for, more or less, a full 48 hour “weekend”.
Example 1: A show has a Sunday 3pm show, ends around 5-6pm, and then the next call time/show is Tuesday evening.
Example 2: A show has a two show Sunday, with Monday/Tuesday being off, and then resumes with a two show Wednesday.
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kingjames2
Chorus Member Joined: 11/26/13
#28
Posted: 10/13/21 at 7:31pm
Kad said: "This clearly spinning out of IATSE's strike authorization in its negotiations with AMPTP regarding their excessive and unreasonable scheduling on shoots.
It's forced crunch time in an attempt to save money. The tech could be done in shorter increments of time over more days, but we're operating in an industry that is exceedingly slow to change and is very beholden to tradition, and these sort of practices are perpetuated because it's believed to be the only viable way things can happen."
Totally agree on all points. Tho believe it or not, while the central issues are unbelievably complimentary, NM10/12s has been working on addressing 10/12s specifically for over a year now. I think the "forced pause" allowed a lot of us in both the theater and film industry to realize just how out of whack the schedules, priorities, and working conditions had gotten. I also think a lot of the issues that are finally entering the conversation wouldn't have been raised had we all not been finally forced to stop, come up for air (metaphorically) and look around at the state of the industry. (Not to speak for anyone else, but that's certainly what happened to me).
#29
Posted: 10/13/21 at 7:52pm
Yes, having time to stop and reflect has certainly driven a lot of this.
And of course, producers, and people arguing on their side, will say that losing so many 10 out of 12 days and having an extended, but more sustainable, tech period will cost more. Maybe. But do we want a theatre that's built on exchanging livable working hours for lower cost? If you can't afford livable hours and wages, then what are you doing producing?
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
Dropscrim
Swing Joined: 10/14/21
#30
Posted: 10/14/21 at 8:43am
I think a few things need to be addressed because there are a lot of people just making things up:
JSquared: "Assistant designers are covered by United Scenic Artists, and after "X" number of hours, they go into overtime." You have no idea what you're talking about. The USA contracts for assistants and associates are weekly (and sometimes daily). Assistants and associates are usually at the theater at the top of call and leave at the end of the day after the production meeting. There is never overtime on an 829 contract (although 7th day is a thing).
"Production meetings are always "off the clock". And that's fair? Literally working for free?
Everything King James said is correct - you're the one who is entirely wrong. And how different, really, are those precious 7 x 10/12 when every other day is a 8/10? The crew and designer staff are still coming in five hours before the cast and then sometimes staying after for production meetings. If we're splitting hairs is a 14 hour day that different from a 16 hr day?
Impeach: Literally no one isn't thinking about Broadway being in "survival mode" - but if the industry can't treat the people who make the work better and offer them better working conditions then what's the point?
Kad: This has been a thing well before the current film strike, it's just gotten more prominence and support post Covid.
Globally, for everyone saying "it's just a few days!" often times the designers staff and people who are only involved until opening night are pretty much in tech all the time. It's unsustainable and it's unhealthy for both the cast (who are often in costume, wigs, makeup, and show shoes standing around for 10 hours) or the crew and designers who are sleep deprived and already working hard to keep up with the demands of a modern technically complex production often without the corresponding increase in schedule or personnel.
To everyone else implying that Broadway is in a perilous position and that this is a bad time, I'd like to remind you that the people who create the entertainment that you're all such big fans and supporters of aren't dancing monkeys who work for you. Like Asgard, Broadway is a people - without the people who make the work there are no shows.
When the costs shake out adding the few extra days in the theater for not having abusive schedules isn't that substantial and is the cost of doing business in a modern America.
#31
Posted: 10/14/21 at 9:52am
Production meetings being “off the clock” is one of the wildest things I have ever heard. I can’t believe people put up with that.
Also, maybe this is over-simplifying things, but…why have meetings/notes/etc. following a long and exhausting tech or rehearsal day? Why not just start the next day with that.
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dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#32
Posted: 10/14/21 at 10:03am
1. MANY of the people in production meetings are salaried. (But for those that are not, it's ridiculous)
2. Notes are often written very quickly and incompletely - if you have to wait until the next day to discuss....you often are clueless to what you were referring to.
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#33
Posted: 10/14/21 at 10:42am
This happens here all the time but there are an embarrassing number of people posting supposed facts in this thread who have no idea what they are talking about. That said, let's take a step back and see what it is that this subject is actually all about.
1. Making theatre is magic.
2. There is no such thing as magic.
3. What's called magic in the theatre (and that occurs during tech) is a long list of very unmagical things that come about because some people end up working an insane amount in an inadequately short amount of time.
4. What we are being asked to consider is whether the system is structurally flawed, and what can be done to correct it. That translates into the present discussion about, in essence, constructing theatre more like constructing a building. Construction crews, engineers, architects, etc. do not work through the night. And as we all know from all-nighters in college, we don't do our best when we are exhausted. Will it cost more to change the system? Yes, superficially at least. Is it the right thing to do? Yes, for more reasons than I can count.
#34
Posted: 10/14/21 at 12:13pm
HogansHero said: "This happens here all the time but there are an embarrassing number of people posting supposed facts in this thread who have no idea what they are talking about. That said, let's take a step back and see what it is that this subject is actually all about.
1. Making theatre is magic.
2. There is no such thing as magic.
3. What's called magic in the theatre (and that occurs during tech) is a long list of very unmagical things that come about because some people end up working an insane amount in an inadequately short amount of time.
4. What we are being asked to consider is whether the system is structurally flawed, and what can be done to correct it. That translates into the present discussion about, in essence, constructing theatre more like constructing a building. Construction crews, engineers, architects, etc. do not work through the night. And as we all know from all-nighters in college, we don't do our best when we are exhausted. Will it cost more to change the system? Yes, superficially at least. Is it the right thing to do? Yes, for more reasons than I can count."
eye roll. Most of the posts in this thread are correct. Every tech is different.
hogan, please stop with your misinformation.
pmensky
Broadway Star Joined: 7/18/11
#36
Posted: 10/14/21 at 12:54pm
GiantsInTheSky2 said: "Production meetings being “off the clock” is one of the wildest things I have ever heard. I can’t believe people put up with that.
Also, maybe this is over-simplifying things, but…why have meetings/notes/etc. following a long and exhausting tech or rehearsal day? Why not just start the next day with that."
Production meetings are not “off the clock.” Any union contract’s rider states that attending production meetings is a responsibility just like getting designs in by a certain date and being in residence during certain dates. It’s considered part of your fee. Just like directors and choreographers are expected to attend auditions, it’s in the contract as part of their fee.
In my experience, notes after a 10 out of 12 tech rehearsal are often emailed so people can go home and rest, or they are given at the beginning of the next day’s work if it, too, is a 10 out of 12 and those notes can be incorporated throughout the day’s work.
Tag
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/19/05
#37
Posted: 10/14/21 at 1:17pm
Production meetings happen at the end of tech days because they can inform the next day's schedule. Like what tech notes need to get done the next morning before onstage rehearsals begin in the afternoon.
#38
Posted: 10/14/21 at 1:28pm
What Tag said is something that anyone who as actually been on the production side of tech knows without thinking about it. It really serves no purpose for people who don't know what they are talking about to post incorrect info. Likewise, this thread is confounding work rules and procedures in different environments. What may happen under some contract other than the production contract (or under no contract at all) is logically irrelevant to this discussion.
RippedMan
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/14/05
#39
Posted: 10/14/21 at 2:11pm
I've had plenty of tech experience where they let the actors go and we did notes the following day. It makes sense since you're fresh and can then apply those notes instead of being exhausted and barely listening.
And having a tech meeting after the rehearsal makes a lot of sense because it outlines the next day.
I get there's a lot that could change, but at this point, it's so ingrained it's hard to see how they would change it. Unless they just make the process longer, which is possible.
kingjames2
Chorus Member Joined: 11/26/13
#40
Posted: 10/14/21 at 2:41pm
RippedMan said: "I get there's a lot that could change, but at this point, it's so ingrained it's hard to see how they would change it. Unless they just make the process longer, which is possible."
This is pretty much exactly why IATSE is about to strike over the Hollywood Basic and ASA contracts. Being ingrained isn’t a good reason to keep doing something, and “that’s the way it’s always been” is an even worse one.
Tag
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/19/05
#41
Posted: 10/14/21 at 5:06pm
While there are parallels with what IA is fighting for in the film/tv industry, it's not really comparable. In film/tv they are basically in perpetual tech week or 10 out of 12s (more like 14 or 16s!) for months and months.
Updated On: 10/14/21 at 05:06 PM
RippedMan
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/14/05
#42
Posted: 10/14/21 at 5:15pm
Great point, Tag. Film is even more of a beast. Crazy hours, overnight shoots, etc.
#43
Posted: 10/14/21 at 5:58pm
RippedMan said: "I've had plenty of tech experience ..."
No offense and I don't know where your experience is/was, but Broadway is sui generis when it comes to tech (among a myriad of other things) and you are not describing a process that is logistically possible (at least not on a big show). Could the system be changed? Yes, because many things that seemed carved in stone have changed, but make no mistake, this will be very expensive to change. Would it be more possible in lesser contracts? You tell me.
Dropscrim
Swing Joined: 10/14/21
#44
Posted: 10/14/21 at 6:16pm
HogansHero said: "RippedMan said: "I've had plenty of tech experience ..."
No offense and I don't know where your experience is/was, but Broadway is sui generis when it comes to tech (among a myriad of other things) and you are not describing a process that is logistically possible (at least not on a big show)..."
Ripped literally described the tech notes process for every Broadway show I've ever worked on as a designer or as an associate (with the exception that the best production managers force that meeting to be during the last break so we can all leave as soon as we're done for the night - but that's still a meeting at 10:45pm that takes up the entirety of a break).
#45
Posted: 10/14/21 at 6:34pm
@Dropscrim can you reread Ripped's post? I think you may have missed something since you and he seem to be saying the opposite thing.
Dropscrim
Swing Joined: 10/14/21
#46
Posted: 10/15/21 at 4:55am
@Hogans
Ripped said this:
"I've had plenty of tech experience where they let the actors go and we did notes the following day. It makes sense since you're fresh and can then apply those notes instead of being exhausted and barely listening.
And having a tech meeting after the rehearsal makes a lot of sense because it outlines the next day. "
That's exactly how it works right now on Broadway.
#47
Posted: 10/15/21 at 9:50am
@dropscrim Now that I re-read, it seems the 2 paragraphs you quote are inconsistent and I was focused on the first which says "we did notes the following day." Admittedly the next paragraph says "after the rehearsal" so I am not sure what you are saying is correct. I am pretty sure you and I are not disagreeing about crews convening before going home and maybe ripped is not either.
kingjames2
Chorus Member Joined: 11/26/13
#48
Posted: 10/15/21 at 10:52am
HogansHero said: "@dropscrim Now that I re-read, it seems the 2 paragraphs you quote are inconsistent and I was focused on the first which says "we did notes the following day." Admittedly the next paragraph says "after the rehearsal"so I am not sure what you are saying is correct. I am pretty sure you and I are not disagreeing about crews convening before going home and maybe ripped is not either."
I think Ripped might also be conflating two different types of notes. The "notes" given at the end-of-day production meeting (or, as Dropscrim says, at the last break before EOD) are intra-creative team, including setting next day's schedule and priorities. The actual *execution* of those notes is done with (or without) actors the following day (aka..."doing notes" in rehearsal).
Dropscrim is correct that the best directors (and tech supervisors) will keep that nightly meeting as brief as humanly possible. But inexperienced managers and directors often let it dissolve into an ad hoc design meeting where solutions to various problems (how do we speed up this transition, why isn't this magical moment working) are batted about until 2 am. Again tho, as Hogan mentioned, it varies hugely what contract and theater we're discussing. A Broadway tech supervisor is not going to stand for a 2am meeting when house heads are on the clock. But I've been in a million regional shows where no one at the meeting is paid by the hour, and that's when the late night abuse is really rampant.
#49
Posted: 10/15/21 at 12:38pm
If "doing notes" = executing notes from the night before, then that partly clarifies Ripped's post. I use "doing notes" to mean giving notes. If nothing else, we are all agreed that bad managers let meetings careen out of control, to everyone's detriment.
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