People Are Dressing Like Slobs: Elizabeth Vincentelli- Page 3

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 2:44pm

Thanks for clearing that up/ 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 2:52pm

Petralicious said: "I just think it is nice for people to get dressed up. . .  To me it is nice, and special. "

Isn't that nice! So happy for you. But I assume you can appreciate that when you post something about how people dress, others are going to assume you have a point more compelling than just your own personal tastes. What's pernicious, petralicious, is making people feel they have to dress a way that's alien to them because ya know what? when they do, they stay away. 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 2:55pm

That's my Hogan

[Petralicious]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 3:02pm

HogansHero said: "Petralicious said: "I just think it is nice for people to get dressed up. . .  To me it is nice, and special. "

Isn't that nice! So happy for you. But I assume you can appreciate that when you post something about how people dress, others are going to assume you have a point more compelling than just your own personal tastes. What's pernicious, petralicious, is making people feel they have to dress a way that's alien to them because ya know what? when they do, they stay away. 

 

"If people are going to stay away because a place requires you have to wear shoes, or a shirt that doesnt have a giant advertisement for their favourite beer on it, then that is A O K with me.   

 

[trpguyy]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 3:44pm

There's a reason that the Opera fan base is dwindling, and I suspect this is a big part of it. 

[After Eight]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 4:40pm

"There's a reason that the Opera fan base is dwindling, and I suspect this is a big part of it."

 

Have you been to the opera recently? You might be surprised at the way some people dress there.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 4:57pm

Petralicious said: "If people are going to stay away because a place requires you have to wear shoes, or a shirt that doesnt have a giant advertisement for their favourite beer on it, then that is A O K with me.   "

again, how  nice. all you care about is you. lovely.

[FANtomFollies]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:15pm

trpguyy said: "There's a reason that the Opera fan base is dwindling, and I suspect this is a big part of it. "

This is going to be slightly off-topic, but I don't think clothes have anything to do with why younger generations aren't very interested in opera. I think part of it is that it's not a part of (most) educational systems, and the other reason is that people in 2016 enjoy much faster-paced entertainment. Opera can be very slow compared to the hit movies and tv of today. I think it's going to take a 'Lin Manuel' type to totally rethink opera.

 

[trpguyy]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:22pm

The aura of snobbishness that is often attached to Opera is off-putting to a lot of young people. Attire is part of that, though the other things mentioned here are, of course, factors as well.

And yes I have been to the opera recently, and while some were wearing things that my grandparents would have scoffed at, it wasn't nearly as casual as a Broadway audience. Not that it should matter to anyone at all. 

But I do believe that a feeling of accessibility (easy-to-find discounted tickets, casual dress, etc.) is helping the business of commercial Broadway theatre.

[trpguyy]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:27pm

I should add that my opinion on the stigma surrounding Opera is formed from past experience working for a major symphony orchestra. I was part of a team who reached out to local high schools and universities to study why people did or did not attend symphony concerts (and to try to increase attendance, of course). The "unwritten rules" (how to dress, when to clap, etc.) were always mentioned as deterrents. 

[FANtomFollies]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:38pm

this discussion about opera could (and should) be it's own thread. I honestly find it fascinating.

[After Eight]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:42pm

"I think it's going to take a 'Lin Manuel' type to totally rethink opera"

Please, NOOOOOOO! It doesn't need any more "rethinking."  For decades now, godawful directors  have "rethought" it to the point of ruination. 

Can't anything good ever be left alone? The prevailing philosophy of this  miserable age seems to be "if it ain't broken, then smash it to smithereens."

And we poor saps are left holding the pieces.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:56pm

Wow Petralicious, it really is "all about you" isn't it?

Tell me, how does it feel to be as fabulous as you are.

it must be so awesome to be you and wake up in the morning and know that the world totally revolves around you.

So cool. 

 

[trpguyy]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 5:59pm

FANtomFollies said: "this discussion about opera could (and should) be it's own thread. I honestly find it fascinating."

Agreed. I'll stop hijacking this thread, but would gladly continue the conversation elsewhere. 

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 7:40pm

FANtomFollies said: "trpguyy said: "There's a reason that the Opera fan base is dwindling, and I suspect this is a big part of it. "

This is going to be slightly off-topic, but I don't think clothes have anything to do with why younger generations aren't very interested in opera. I think part of it is that it's not a part of (most) educational systems, and the other reason is that people in 2016 enjoy much faster-paced entertainment. Opera can be very slow compared to the hit movies and tv of today. I think it's going to take a 'Lin Manuel' type to totally rethink opera.

 

 

"

And while there are ways to find cheap tickets, it's also a very expensive art form to get into--even more so than commercial theatre in my experience.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/1/16 at 9:28pm

There is a danger in drawing too much of an analogy between Broadway and opera. Broadway is, for the most part, a commercial enterprise, whereas opera never is. The Met is subsidized around 40% by donations, in addition to functioning tax free. Moreover the Met's 227 performances this past season are under 2% of Broadway's (spread over half as many unique productions) and its attendance is around 6% of Broadway's. So it is structurally a much more rarefied art form, and unlike Broadway it does not need to be popular to be successful. So when we talk of capturing the younger market we are not really talking the same language. 

While I basically don't think we need to rethink opera very much in the way we do with the theatre, I do think we need to stop making opera or classical music into the equivalent of detention for students and young people. When dressing as if we were living in the 50s is a condition precedent to consuming culture, most folks know very well how to throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

One of our most impressive classical music organizations, Orpheus, makes a point of eschewing rules like these, and enjoys great success: dress as you wish, clap as you wish; all they care about is that you enjoy what you hear. 

 

[Petralicious]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 9:28am

CarlosAlberto said: "Wow Petralicious, it really is "all about you" isn't it?

Tell me, how does it feel to be as fabulous as you are.

it must be so awesome to be you and wake up in the morning and know that the world totally revolves around you.

So cool. 

 

 

"Oh Carlos, I do think I am fabulous, I think everyone should. But you do have it backwards. I think it is opposite, I go out of my way to present myself in a nice way out of respect for others.  To me, dressing nicely is the same as not talking in theaters,  talking quietly in restaurants or trains or public in general, not texting other people while with other people or while walking on busy streets and always smelling nice. A little courtesy makes everyone around you have a better day.

 

As for Opera, Schools in America dont teach it or even introduce it to their students, so students are not aware of it and think it is old fashion. Of course if they did, like musical theater or band, it would be very popular as it is in Europe. Look at Marching Band, if you think about it, what is more old fashioned than that? But  all the schools that have that, filled with children. 
 

Updated On: 8/2/16 at 09:28 AM

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 11:31am

I think the bottom line is that times have changed. Entitlement has some to do with it. People feel that they should be able to dress the way they want to and shouldn't be told what to do. 

As a kid and young adult I always dressed for the theatre and the opera. That is what you did. In school we were taken to 3 operas. I saw FAUST and CARMEN at the Academy of Music and our Senior Class went to NYC to see "The Magic Flute" at the Met. Every male wore a tie. We always dressed for the theatre. That was also a time when a parent wanted you to look "presentable" in public. It was a reflection on them. It also changed the way we acted when we went into a theater or opera house. (For the most part!). It made it feel like more of an event and I feel it was part of a teaching tool on our way to becoming mature/adults.

I can remember the first time I wore jeans to the theatre. I was in a rush and didn't have time to iron a pair of dress pants. I wore a nice shirt and shoes though. I got to the theater and was a bit of a nervous wreck! I kept looking around to see if I was the only one wearing jeans. Of course I wasn't, but I still did not feel comfortable. Dressing for the theatre was instilled in my being. It still bothers me a bit now but I have worn jeans to shows on several occasions. Always clean and with a nice shirt and shoes. I have actually wore sneaker type shoes a few times when I have gotten a ticket on a whim and could not get home to change.

Being around the theatre community it has been nice to see young people dressing up to see a show and how well behaved those kids are in theaters (for the most part! I have also noticed that for the most part the people we have to ask to turn their cell phones off are not young kids, but adults.) Dressing up makes it feel more special I think. But we are now in a time when seeing a show may be a big deal but for some it is part of a list of things to do in their busy lives. Tourists spend a day seeing the city and then go directly to a show with shopping bags and food in tow wearing what they put on that morning in the hotel. They don't have, or plan, time to go change. And it isn't a big deal to them.  

I don't think wearing shorts, jeans or sneakers lessens a person's enjoyment of a show but I do think that in a lot of cases it affects people's behavior at a show. So hopefully these young kids I see will keep up the tradition and dress for the theatre. That is just my observation and opinion. 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 12:38pm

All schools have marching bands? No, sir, they don't.  

And how does introducing or teaching it = an automatic love of it?   Schools teach Shakespeare, and only an extremely small portion of students will tell you they love it.   Or what about History? or Latin?  or Home Ec?   

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 12:38pm

All schools have marching bands? No, sir, they don't.  

And how does introducing or teaching it = an automatic love of it?   Schools teach Shakespeare, and only an extremely small portion of students will tell you they love it.   Or what about History? or Latin?  or Home Ec?   

 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 12:43pm

Right now, producers would not care if people came in buck naked as long as they filled seats.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 12:49pm

uncageg said: "Entitlement has some to do with it."

Well, yes. Broadway theaters have no rules against wearing jeans or shorts or tee shirts, so I'm entitled to wear them. If they had such rules, I wouldn't be. They do have rules against being loud or using a phone during a performance, so I'm most definitely not entitled to do those things.

 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 12:50pm

After Eight said: "The prevailing philosophy of this  miserable age seems to be..."

Which age would you prefer to go back to? I trust it wouldn't be one where African Americans, women, or LGBT people were legally excluded from full participation in society.

 

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 1:01pm

kdogg36 said: "uncageg said: "Entitlement has some to do with it."

Well, yes. Broadway theaters have no rules against wearing jeans or shorts or tee shirts, so I'm entitled to wear them. If they had such rules, I wouldn't be. They do have rules against being loud or using a phone during a performance, so I'm most definitely not entitled to do those things."

 

:)
 

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/2/16 at 2:11pm

uncageg said: "...I do think that in a lot of cases it affects people's behavior at a show. So hopefully these young kids I see will keep up the tradition and dress for the theatre. That is just my observation and opinion. "

you can think whatever you want but you will be hard pressed to find data to support your prejudice. I went to the theatre over the weekend with 3 friends, all graduates of Juilliard and all wearing shorts and tshirts, with either sneakers or flipflops. They behaved perfectly. A few weeks ago I sat behind a group of high school kids. all the boys were wearing button down shirts and khakis. They punched each other and threw things at each other throughout much of the show, to their obvious enjoyment. Bad behavior is bad, regardless of how someone is dressed but the correlation you are pushing is wack. And besides the worst behavior I experience in the theatre is from old people who I venture to say probably do not own ripped jeans or flip flops. Oh, and ask a random cross section of actors if they would rather play to a house full of young people or seniors, and get back to me when you get the result...