RENT is not a "Watershed" musical...- Page 2
RENT is not a "Watershed" musical...
#25WINSTON.
Posted: 8/17/08 at 7:49pm
Well, people who say poorly-informed things like that are the reason for the bad reputation. But I have said over and over again that it's unfair to lump everybody in just because they like Rent. Blatant stupidity or unwillingness to be informed isn't a requirement for enjoying the show.
our dear friend, Winston, is the exact reason why I question its significance. It's hard not to when I have RENT Heads calling it "groundbreaking" and "revolutionary"
You shouldn't question the significance of the show in the trajectory of the art form's history because of its fans.
And I still believe it can have broken ground without having been a "watershed" in the sense of Hair or Oklahoma! etc. in being first. Claiming that a show had to have been the first to do one thing or another in order to have been ground breaking is a little closed-minded, honestly. It still changed the face of the American musical at the time. And further, we're still looking at direct results of that change now.
winston89
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/18/06
#26RENT is not a 'Watershed' musical...
Posted: 8/17/08 at 7:57pmEmcee I agree with you. The show doesn't have to be watershed to have been ground breaking. I agree that it did change the face of the American musical. I also agree that a show doesn't have to be the first to do something to be ground breaking.
"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear"
Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll
#27WINSTON.
Posted: 8/17/08 at 8:00pm
"Winston - your examples are exactly why I believe it's NOT a watershed musical. it was NOT the first musical to deal with aids or homosexuality, and it was NOT the first musical with a drag queen. it was also NOT the first musical to bring teens to the theatre.
Jesus Christ Superstar and Hair did a great job at doing it, first. The whole controversial "rock show" found that young edgy audience. RENT was not the first to do anything you have claimed, Winston. "
JCS and Hair are from a completely different era. There was no where near the competition for a young person's attention. The fact that Rent was able to capture a teenager with a 90's mindset was a miracle. Broadway at that time was a wasteland of theme-park musicals and stale revivals. Did Rent "reinvent" musical theater? With the exception of Showboat, which really was the first, no show ever really has. However, I do believe it gave theater, and Broadway itself in particular, a much needed shot in the arm. Like it or not, Broadway had not seen anything like Rent in decades, and really hasn't since.
Updated On: 8/17/08 at 08:00 PM
winston89
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/18/06
#28WINSTON.
Posted: 8/17/08 at 8:31pm
I agree. I don't think we would be seeing things like teenagers flocking to things like Wicked or Legally Blonde or Spring Awakening if it wasn't for Rent.
I agree as well that Superstar and Hair were two totally different eras. And, that it was a big thing to get a typical 90's teen to the theatre was a big thing.
"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear"
Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll
TooDarnHot
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/08
#29WINSTON.
Posted: 8/17/08 at 9:19pm
Winston... you just repeat what everyone else says!!!
and when you finally do come up with something on your own, it's absolutely ridiculous.
how old are you?
Emcee - I appreciate YOUR added perspective to the argument. I do agree that RENT did have some type of impact on Broadway... just not sure it's so "revolutionary" as some like to cry out (Winston).
#30WINSTON.
Posted: 8/17/08 at 10:07pmTooDarnHot, stop acting like you rule everything. Rent has changed Broadway for many years to come. Sure it wasn't the first but it sure contributed a lot to Broadway. It introduced so many people to other shows and musical theater. If it wasn't for Rent I wouldn't be the theater geek I am today. It inspired people to make musicals and go out there and perform and make great shows. Rent was ground breaking, wether you like it or not, it was ground breaking.
winston89
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/18/06
#31WINSTON.
Posted: 8/17/08 at 11:03pmTDH I was saying I agreed with Emcee and saying what it was I agreed with him on. How, is that just copying what he is saying?
"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear"
Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll
Kate-Monster
Swing Joined: 7/17/08
#34WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 12:08am
Let my preface by saying that I'm not a Renthead or a hater. I think it's sort of OK.
I would agree that RENT is a "watershed" musical, which is evidenced by its cultural significance. I don't understand why. I don't personally find much about it to be new or groundbreaking. It's full of stock characters, over-used themes, and mediocre music. Yeah, the songs are catchy and it has a cool "stick it to the man" message, but so what?
The thing about RENT, or Rocky Horror, or Star Trek for that matter, is that a large number of people identify with it and love it FOREVER. There's something about it that speaks to people and makes them feel good. That's really it.
"Hello. How are we today? I'm feeling a little blue myself. You know, a little anxious for no particular reason, a little sad that I should feel anxious at this age, you know, a little self-concious anxiety resulting in non-specific sadness: a state that I call 'blue'."
--The Drowsy Chaperone
TooDarnHot
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/08
#35WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 12:33am
Drunk - no need to get nasty towards me. I'm not bashing on RENT at all (compared to how I usually am)... I see the signifigance. I am not ****ing deaf, dumb, and blind. my dear.
But it's not a revolutionary "watershed" musical.
There are a lot of shows that brought the younger generation to Broadway. RENT, in my opinion, has no direct correlation to WICKED or SPRING AWAKENING. those teeny bopper massacres would have happened regardless of Larson's lament to homosexuality and aids.
Kate-Monster puts it best for sure.
It's stubborn RENT freaks, like Winston, who fail to understand that it's absolutely ridiculous to trample over the boards with this whole 'RENT is revolutionary ' mentality.
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
TooDarnHot
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/08
AdamIsGodImJesus
Stand-by Joined: 8/7/04
#39WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 1:20am
I think the answer to this is: there is no answer. Having art be groundbreaking depends on the person viewing the art. Isn't that the beauty behind it all anyway? A show that one person may loathe may be the same show that inspires thousands.
I think the words "groundbreaking" and "revolutionary" are a bit pretentious, and I think when people call any show that it's a red flag for everybody to disagree.
That being said, you can't ignore the impact that RENT has had on not only Broadway but the Broadway community and audience. No it is not the first musical to present many of it's issues. It wasn't the first of it's kind in regards to genre or storytelling either.
Really, everything we see now is just a version of something else anyway. I don't think anything hasn't been done before.
But I would consider it to be watershed because it had the power behind it to change and alter the landscape. Sure there have been rock musicals. Or RENT could be considered the HAIR of the 90s. But RENT became a cultural phenomenon. There's no denying that. It reached a wide array of people and audience members and remained on Broadway for twelve years. It became incredibly mainstream and because of that alone, I consider it to be watershed.
I suppose I look at things from a producer's standpoint, but smaller rock musicals or even small commercial "successes" like She Loves Me or Smokey Joe's Cafe were not nearly as wide heard or mainstream as RENT. Sure it's message may not be for everyone, and it was/is flawed, but the fact that it was what it was (controversial, youth friendly, rock musical, etc.) is only illuminated by the fact that it was an incredible success. Most people hadn't heard of the aforementioned, by they knew what RENT was.
It's not necessarily who did it first, but who did it better. And though you may not recognize RENT as the best musical of its kind, it was indeed the most successful. And that's where it's watershed.
AdamIsGodImJesus
Stand-by Joined: 8/7/04
winston89
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/18/06
#41WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 3:12am
TDH. I am NOT a "Rent freak" by any means. Yes, I do love the show and it is on my long list of favorite shows I have seen. That doesn't make me a "Rent freak" it just makes me a causal fan.
I just realized that the whole point of you creating this thread was as follows. You have a particular viewpoint about Rent. Which is perfectly okay to have. However instead of expressing your view in a " this is how I feel about Rent, are there any other people out there who feel the same way I do?" You set it up in a way to say this is what you feel, and everyone else who disagrees is wrong. You love it when there are people who say something that you agree with. But, you lash out and attack people just because they have a different view point as you.
"If you try to shag my husband while I am still alive, I will shove the art of motorcycle maintenance up your rancid little Cu**. That's a good dear"
Tom Stoppard's Rock N Roll
Updated On: 8/18/08 at 03:12 AM
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#42WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 3:36am
"It introduced so many people to other shows and musical theater. If it wasn't for Rent I wouldn't be the theater geek I am today."
If you go by that logic, Wicked is a groundbreaking musical! The shows that got me into theater were Beauty and the Beast and Thoroughly Modern Millie...I wouldn't call either of those revolutionary. A lot of different shows introduced people to other shows and inspire people to create theater. I don't think that in itself determines if a musical is groundbreaking.
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
LePetiteFromage
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/19/08
#44WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 6:40am
Im glad you started this thread TDH
I know you think im a Rent Head, but im not i just like the show and it had an important message for me personally.
Rent was not a show which came along and made everyone pay attention because it had never been done before, it was because it was a show which was allowing a new younger audience come to the theatre to watch a show that was not going to preach at them but was going to allow them to relate.
It didn't matter what background you were from, there was something in there which affected everyone (im from a very well off background and have gone on to do very well myself but i could relate to the living with the disease side).
Hair (a great musical) had not tapped in to this audience as its message was to left wing for some people, to hippy and for a lot of people to preposterous, and whilst i think Hair introduced the Rock Opera to the mainstream and did it brilliantly i think Rent cast its net further afield.
Does Rent have its flaws? of course it does but that's what adds to it charm, it didn't get to have a try out where its author could change what needed to be changed.
Rent will be remembered for kicking theatre up the backside when it opened and made the world take note, and it spoke to a generation which continues today unlike any other musical.
Its not about 'was it the first rock opera', was it the best rock opera' etc, it's about the fact that rent made a big impact and brought a whole new generation to the theatre.
And im not ashamed to say it that i think its a great musical (with flaws), its never going to be a Company or West Side Story, but it's still a great musical.
PS the bigger question here is why has it become the 'cool' thing to do to bash a show like Rent?
Namo i love u but we get it already....you don't like Madonna
Urban
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/27/05
#47WINSTON.
Posted: 8/18/08 at 11:15amI agree that it takes some time and distance to determine whether anything's a watershed moment. Shows can be controversial and engender debate without leaving a lasting mark on the theater. I might not wait ten more years, but I think declaring Rent a watershed moment before it's closed is premature. I'd like to see what its progeny, if any, look like a few years down the road.
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
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