Reasons People Don't Like Musicals

So I love musicals an absurd amount, as do many people here I'm sure

I mean, to me, it doesn't seem like an absurd amount at all but rather the exact amount that makes sense for a human being

So I've asked some of my fellow human beings of the regular variety why exactly they don't like musicals or just don't like them as much as I do

Here is the main thing I've heard: 

"The lyrics don't make sense."

To me, this is very odd, because I find a lot of more popular music to be much more abstract and often confusing compared to lyrics that are about a scenario 

I mean, some musicals lyrics don't make sense 

Like imagine you heard Last Midnight from Into the Woods and didn't have the context of the show

But I feel like 

A musical cannot be analyzed by the part that makes the least sense out of context 

It's like saying movies are bad because if you show me a random scene I'll have no idea what the characters' motivations are 

The other thing I've heard is 

"Musicals are all about fake things, real music is about real stuff."

Well, theatre is inherently artificial, which I know is what these people actually mean 

But for the sake of debate

I would wager that music in most of the best musicals is about just as many real feelings and experiences as any great music in any other genre 

And I really wonder if these people think that country, pop, and Christian music (what most people in my circles listen to) are actually mostly genuine and real stories 

Well anyways 

What have you all discovered as reasons why this art form seems so niche and strangly is ignored by most of the "regular people"?

There’s also always been some kind of negative stigma regarding those who like musicals, and most people don’t want to fall into that “trap.”

Updated On: 12/24/23 at 02:36 PM

I like musicals but I like plays more. 
I do see musicals but I stay away from the large ensemble, big dance number shows like Some Like It Hot, Spamalot, The Lion King, New York New York, etc. I’ve been enjoying Gutenberg, Hadestown, and Little Shop recently. 

I feel that when the writing is organic, it will be loved and embraced by most people, when given the chance. 

Nearly every imaginable music style can be found in musicals, so it is just a matter of how it works.

Personally I find Miss Saigon to be one of the most organic written shows out there, form the first sound of the gong and the helicopter till the final notes. The style of writing is mature and takes the audience seriously. It is a realistic, stimulating ride and I have never heard anyone complaining that there was singing involved. The audience never has to switch between languages. Most people are used to the idea of "sung thoughts" (songs on the radio, etc). I think also a big part of that is that every lyric makes sense in that show. It flows organically and never feels "musical" (in the sense of what people say when they hate musicals). The lyrics in the opening numbers are raw and serve a purpose. They tell the thoughts of the ensemble. Sung thoughts. Then Kim introduces herself with her thoughts, but those thoughts are not literal, they serve a purpose.

I wish more shows were written like this. I have spoken to many people in my life who say they "hate" musicals. I dislike many musicals too. I notice that when I dislike a musical, it is because it is not organic. I have never heard anyone complaining about the singing of  "A whole new world" in the animated Disney movie musical Aladdin, because it feels organic. Then there is also the organic way of songs being actual performances within the performance/movie such as in Phantom of the Opera or The Sound of music. Which is generally loved too. A show like Sunset Boulevard feels organic to me too. But even when there are musical cliche's such as in Grease the movie or in The prince of Egypt the stage musical, when the music and lyrics are organic it will still work.

I know many people hating "Into the woods", with all the unnecessary repetitions. But also for example "Hamilton". I am appalled when a show starts and the ensemble says the name of the leading character 40 times, Alexander Hamilton. His name is Alexander Hamilton. (for the sake of nothing) and then on the last chord, they say it one more time, folllowed by a joint head flip while all looking cool into the audience. That is the opposite of organic. That is why I think people hate musicals. That style is belittling and is in fact a parody on musicals.

Or in Wicked, just repeating the title 6 times for nothing. The ensemble is meant for far more organic things. Imagine in Phantom the ensemble saying "Her name is Christine, yes her name is Christine. And then she comes on and says "my name is Christine, yes, that's what my name is". And then all together "her/my name is" Christineeeee and then strike a joint pose on the last note. I mean, no. That is kindergarten writing. I can imagine why people feel belittled by that. Writing like that is way too literal and obvious. The power of musical is avoiding that but instead understanding the given of sung thoughts in an intelligent way.

Because of this big differences, I think it is impossible to say "I hate musicals". The difference in music styles, quality, writing and language of storytelling is just too big to lump everything together.

 

 

 

 

Updated On: 12/26/23 at 08:21 PM

HogansHero said: "The elephant in the room (and it is precisely what you hear repeatedly when the people about whom you are asking are surveyed) is that the music in very few if any musicals resonate for most people. It's also true that, as someone said above, the high number of garbage musicals - jukebox musicals, musicals exploiting popular movies and the like, etc. - doesn't help because it reinforces the notion that "there is nothing here for me." Unless and until we can work our way out of the deep hole we dug for ourselves in the latter part of the last century, most people are not gonna like musicals."

Not sure by what you mean by the hold dug in the latter part of the last century. Seems to me most of the greatest musicals and songs came from that time period, if slightly early than the 50s. Certainly, there was a lot of light weight stuff, but singable and relatable songs. Lerner and Lowe, Frank Loesser, Jule Styne, Rodgers and Hart, then Rodgers and Hammerstein kind of bordered on that time period, as did Cole Porter and Jerome Kern with Hammerstein. I came to Phantom late - only in 2017 - long story about why not before - and the whole package of the show is hard to compete with. That was the 80s and ALW began leading the charge in musicals in the 70s. Sondheim was making himself known somewhat earlier - so again in the last half of the 20th Century. Then there is Les Mis. All timeless stuff. Was just listening to Lily's Eyes from A Secret Garden (late 80s-early 90s). The music from the show is just lovely, but it never made it back to Broadway - the redo in Los Angeles never really took off there - here we have issues with direction and staging, etc. possibly being the main issues there, I think. Not sure what the problem was.

In any event, maybe that's the hole - the music was too good and the composers today can't match up. 

I watch a lot of YouTube videos and they have their best 20 songs from musicals of different types - most dramatic, most romantic, hardest to sing, etc.  and I have to be honest, not many draw me in. I thought I was just getting old, and that may be the case, still good music tends to overcome barriers. 

Sad, because Broadway musicals always led the way. As noted earlier, I cut my teeth on movie versions of Broadway musicals, but the music was still from the stage shows.

Actually, I did mention Sondheim, who seemed to border the old school with the new school - Gypsy and West Side Story in collaboration, then on to Follies, etc. 

I do understand what you mean about the gatekeepers. Are there any new composers out there? I wonder. I admit I'm old and old school, but music used to bridge the age gap. I give you Mozart and Beethoven as examples! That's kind of a joke, but true. 

Why is Chicago still a success and Cababet - both dark and seeming in tune with a lot of the energy in today's world. Phantom is still alive and well around the world. I have my own ideas about why it failed on Broadway, but that's another story. Music Man drew an audience - was that just the stars power? Not my favorite musical - storywise or musically, but it was still a success.

From where I sit, it appears that originality and creativity are lacking in all levels of the entertainment industry. Starting with Disney and down. There don't seem to be any universal themes people can latch onto anymore, so people like me yearn for the old days and younger folks want to see their world, but the money isn't there or that bright spark of a new Sondheim hasn't shown up to put it out there.  

 

HogansHero said: " is that the music in very few if any musicals resonate for most people.."

Which music? For example, "Bohemian Rhapsody" is considered a number 1 hit in the history of the music world, which resonates for many people, and it is in fact in a musical too. So is nearly every other style of music.

I think it is more about the current style of musical writing that borders on parody and milks out musical cliche's.

 

 

Penna2 said: "Actually, I did mention Sondheim, who seemed to border the old school with the new school - Gypsy and West Side Story in collaboration, then on to Follies, etc.

I do understand what you mean about the gatekeepers. Are there any new composers out there? I wonder. I admit I'm old and old school, but music used to bridge the age gap. I give you Mozart and Beethoven as examples! That's kind of a joke, but true.

Why is Chicago still a success and Cababet - both dark and seeming in tune with a lot of the energy in today's world. Phantom is still alive and well around the world. I have my own ideas about why it failed on Broadway, but that's another story. Music Man drew an audience - was that just the stars power? Not my favorite musical - storywise or musically, but it was still a success.

From where I sit, it appears that originality and creativity are lacking in all levels of the entertainment industry. Starting with Disney and down. There don't seem to be any universal themes people can latch onto anymore, so people like me yearn for the old days and younger folks want to see their world, but the money isn't there or that bright spark of a new Sondheim hasn't shown up to put it out there.

"

@Penna, sorry I overlooked your Sondheim reference but here again, his work is great but has rarely been successful commercially. Are there new (good) composers out there? Of course. Can they get in the door? Rarely. Are they the same people who are writing music that resonates now? Rarely. Even if you look at Miranda, he took a long time and had to do backflips. But all of these cherry picked examples do not add up to a healthy genre. The bottom line is that most people don't like what we are producing as musicals, and apropos of what is in #4 above, how many were dragged to Almost Famous or SLIH who will never return? (BTW, some of K&E has indeed risen above, although if you correct for star driven and demographics, I am not sure how comfortable Cabaret and Chicago make me. Similarly, I don't think anyone could seriously argue that the Music Man would have attracted a crowd without Jackman. And here again this is a show that reinforces the negative stereotype for the young and impressionable. Finally, yes there is too much garbage out there, but what is the chicken and what is the egg? 

@seb First of all what musical is BR in? It's a song that was famously written as a mock opera. When I talk about composing music, I mean music composed FOR a musical, and integrated into it as such. This is at the root of the problem. Moreover, BR is unique and does not define or explain contemporary resonance any more than Beethoven V does. I just don't sense that we are even talking about the same subject. 

HogansHero said: "@seb First of all what musical is BR in?."

It's in the musical "We will rock you". My point was that I knew people coming out of that show saying, "I thought I hated musicals but this was cool and sounded good". So like baritone says, the ideas people think they have about music, styles or musicals are not always based on reasonable facts.

 

People will put forward a million reasons as to why they think they don't like musicals, but at the end of the day I truly believe people don't like musicals because they cannot mentally keep up.

A typical musical uses at minimum 5 methods of communication, or, if you will, 5 "languages". Dialogue, lyrics and sung vocal lines, music (deciphering lyrics and understanding character/plot development that happens through music theory and compositional structures are different skills), dance, and visual (design choices, basic staging of a number, etc). 

We flip back and forth between 5 languages, almost always having multiple languages exist at the same time. And if you are not bilingual you get left in the dark.

The average person isn't able to articulate "the book scene was cut to the bare essentials to keep the running time down and the actor underplayed what little was left of the book scene meaning there was not a proper lead up to the song." They will know something is off, but unable to delve into what happened in any meaningful way, will simply throw a "people don't break into song in real life" around and be done with it.

When you look at what has been popular in the last 40 years, the shows that are popular have often cut down on languages for ease of viewing. (How closely do you have to follow lyrics in Phantom to still understand the show? Does Cats have a plot? What dialogue in Les Miz? Is the design in Hamilton minimalism or a reprieve from the bevy of words coming at you?)

It's true that we are not writing shows that resonate with the general public. But as an art form progresses, innovation will naturally only get harder for people to understand. If you've never listened to improvisational jazz or modern opera you'd probably have a hard time thinking the score of DOWAR is anything but noise. That is a commercial liability, but it's not something Guettel can worry about when writing the piece. We have become an art form for aficionados, but I don't think you can change that at this point without first demanding better rigorous arts education in the schools.

This might be one of the most convuluted threads this board has ever seen. 

 

There are very few things in this world that EVERYONE likes.  We don't all watch sports....or all sports.  We don't all like horror films, or sushi or WHATEVER.   SO WHAT?!   It's not my job to change that.  It's not  the NFL's job to change that nor the sushi chef.   And you know what?  ITS FINE.

Over 220 thousand people saw a broadway show last week.  What's the problem?  

 

That's my tag or signature or whatever it's called here.  It shows up on every post I make, it has nothing to do with this specific conversation. (Yes, the most recent "upate" to the website made it less clear to see that's not part of my actual post.)

I think Hogan has given the best answer. In the mid-60s popular music and Broadway music diverged. Most people have very narrow taste in music. 

Another reason: around that same time you saw the rise of the singer/songwriter. To this day the expectation that a singer should be singing their own songs has only gotten stronger in the popular culture. How many times have you heard someone criticized ("she doesn't even write her own songs etc."). Our culture developed ideas about "authenticity" and a disdain for what is seen as "fake." 

Seen through this prism, is it any wonder that our culture grew to dislike actors pretending to be someone else, singing music written by someone else? Obviously those of us on this board don't have a problem with it. Meryl Streep doesn't write her dialogue, so why should Sutton Foster write her own songs? 

But to modern audiences, this perceived lack of "authenticity" reads as "cringe" and is a big turn off.