Reasons People Don't Like Musicals

[baritonewithtenortendencies]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 2:07pm

So I love musicals an absurd amount, as do many people here I'm sure

I mean, to me, it doesn't seem like an absurd amount at all but rather the exact amount that makes sense for a human being

So I've asked some of my fellow human beings of the regular variety why exactly they don't like musicals or just don't like them as much as I do

Here is the main thing I've heard: 

"The lyrics don't make sense."

To me, this is very odd, because I find a lot of more popular music to be much more abstract and often confusing compared to lyrics that are about a scenario 

I mean, some musicals lyrics don't make sense 

Like imagine you heard Last Midnight from Into the Woods and didn't have the context of the show

But I feel like 

A musical cannot be analyzed by the part that makes the least sense out of context 

It's like saying movies are bad because if you show me a random scene I'll have no idea what the characters' motivations are 

The other thing I've heard is 

"Musicals are all about fake things, real music is about real stuff."

Well, theatre is inherently artificial, which I know is what these people actually mean 

But for the sake of debate

I would wager that music in most of the best musicals is about just as many real feelings and experiences as any great music in any other genre 

And I really wonder if these people think that country, pop, and Christian music (what most people in my circles listen to) are actually mostly genuine and real stories 

Well anyways 

What have you all discovered as reasons why this art form seems so niche and strangly is ignored by most of the "regular people"?

[LuckyDipster]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 2:27pm

I grew up loving musicals and just presumed that everyone else did too.  It's only recently that I have come to realise just how niche they actually are with the wider public.

The first thing that comes to mind as a reason people give for not 'getting' musicals is people don't burst into song in real life.  Aside from the fact that some of us do, I could counter this argument by saying "well, people tend not to have car chases in real life or get picked off in a single location by a serial killer" and yet most people will enjoy seeing those scenarios in a movie.

[EDSOSLO858]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 2:36pm

There’s also always been some kind of negative stigma regarding those who like musicals, and most people don’t want to fall into that “trap.”

Updated On: 12/24/23 at 02:36 PM

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 3:21pm

Because a lot of musicals these days, and especially musicals based on Hollywood hits are dreadful.

Also, a lot of people’s first exposure to musical theatre is school and community theatre productions. And while I fully support such productions, amateur musical theatre can be pretty painful.

If my first and only experiences with musicals was the Mamma Mia! movie, a high school production of South Pacific, and a touring production of Pretty Women my mother dragged me to, I’d probably think I hate musicals too.

 

[simplecactus]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 3:50pm

I like musicals but I like plays more. 
I do see musicals but I stay away from the large ensemble, big dance number shows like Some Like It Hot, Spamalot, The Lion King, New York New York, etc. I’ve been enjoying Gutenberg, Hadestown, and Little Shop recently. 

[Penna2]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 4:40pm

I have loved musicals since I was a child. My first was Carousel, then Guys and Dolls, then Oklahoma. All films, not live theatre, but the stories and the music itself charmed me. My dream was to be a musical star. Unfortunately, while having a good voice, it wasn't a great voice, so I did plays. Even so, musical theater will always be my first love...I tend to find plays boring because of the lack of music! Music in and of itself draws people together in a way just words cannot. JMO.

[Seb28]

Posted: 12/24/23 at 8:21pm

I feel that when the writing is organic, it will be loved and embraced by most people, when given the chance. 

Nearly every imaginable music style can be found in musicals, so it is just a matter of how it works.

Personally I find Miss Saigon to be one of the most organic written shows out there, form the first sound of the gong and the helicopter till the final notes. The style of writing is mature and takes the audience seriously. It is a realistic, stimulating ride and I have never heard anyone complaining that there was singing involved. The audience never has to switch between languages. Most people are used to the idea of "sung thoughts" (songs on the radio, etc). I think also a big part of that is that every lyric makes sense in that show. It flows organically and never feels "musical" (in the sense of what people say when they hate musicals). The lyrics in the opening numbers are raw and serve a purpose. They tell the thoughts of the ensemble. Sung thoughts. Then Kim introduces herself with her thoughts, but those thoughts are not literal, they serve a purpose.

I wish more shows were written like this. I have spoken to many people in my life who say they "hate" musicals. I dislike many musicals too. I notice that when I dislike a musical, it is because it is not organic. I have never heard anyone complaining about the singing of  "A whole new world" in the animated Disney movie musical Aladdin, because it feels organic. Then there is also the organic way of songs being actual performances within the performance/movie such as in Phantom of the Opera or The Sound of music. Which is generally loved too. A show like Sunset Boulevard feels organic to me too. But even when there are musical cliche's such as in Grease the movie or in The prince of Egypt the stage musical, when the music and lyrics are organic it will still work.

I know many people hating "Into the woods", with all the unnecessary repetitions. But also for example "Hamilton". I am appalled when a show starts and the ensemble says the name of the leading character 40 times, Alexander Hamilton. His name is Alexander Hamilton. (for the sake of nothing) and then on the last chord, they say it one more time, folllowed by a joint head flip while all looking cool into the audience. That is the opposite of organic. That is why I think people hate musicals. That style is belittling and is in fact a parody on musicals.

Or in Wicked, just repeating the title 6 times for nothing. The ensemble is meant for far more organic things. Imagine in Phantom the ensemble saying "Her name is Christine, yes her name is Christine. And then she comes on and says "my name is Christine, yes, that's what my name is". And then all together "her/my name is" Christineeeee and then strike a joint pose on the last note. I mean, no. That is kindergarten writing. I can imagine why people feel belittled by that. Writing like that is way too literal and obvious. The power of musical is avoiding that but instead understanding the given of sung thoughts in an intelligent way.

Because of this big differences, I think it is impossible to say "I hate musicals". The difference in music styles, quality, writing and language of storytelling is just too big to lump everything together.

 

 

 

 

Updated On: 12/26/23 at 08:21 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 1:08am

The elephant in the room (and it is precisely what you hear repeatedly when the people about whom you are asking are surveyed) is that the music in very few if any musicals resonate for most people. It's also true that, as someone said above, the high number of garbage musicals - jukebox musicals, musicals exploiting popular movies and the like, etc. - doesn't help because it reinforces the notion that "there is nothing here for me." Unless and until we can work our way out of the deep hole we dug for ourselves in the latter part of the last century, most people are not gonna like musicals. 

[Penna2]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 3:30am

HogansHero said: "The elephant in the room (and it is precisely what you hear repeatedly when the people about whom you are asking are surveyed) is that the music in very few if any musicals resonate for most people. It's also true that, as someone said above, the high number of garbage musicals - jukebox musicals, musicals exploiting popular movies and the like, etc. - doesn't help because it reinforces the notion that "there is nothing here for me." Unless and until we can work our way out of the deep hole we dug for ourselves in the latter part of the last century, most people are not gonna like musicals."

Not sure by what you mean by the hold dug in the latter part of the last century. Seems to me most of the greatest musicals and songs came from that time period, if slightly early than the 50s. Certainly, there was a lot of light weight stuff, but singable and relatable songs. Lerner and Lowe, Frank Loesser, Jule Styne, Rodgers and Hart, then Rodgers and Hammerstein kind of bordered on that time period, as did Cole Porter and Jerome Kern with Hammerstein. I came to Phantom late - only in 2017 - long story about why not before - and the whole package of the show is hard to compete with. That was the 80s and ALW began leading the charge in musicals in the 70s. Sondheim was making himself known somewhat earlier - so again in the last half of the 20th Century. Then there is Les Mis. All timeless stuff. Was just listening to Lily's Eyes from A Secret Garden (late 80s-early 90s). The music from the show is just lovely, but it never made it back to Broadway - the redo in Los Angeles never really took off there - here we have issues with direction and staging, etc. possibly being the main issues there, I think. Not sure what the problem was.

In any event, maybe that's the hole - the music was too good and the composers today can't match up. 

I watch a lot of YouTube videos and they have their best 20 songs from musicals of different types - most dramatic, most romantic, hardest to sing, etc.  and I have to be honest, not many draw me in. I thought I was just getting old, and that may be the case, still good music tends to overcome barriers. 

Sad, because Broadway musicals always led the way. As noted earlier, I cut my teeth on movie versions of Broadway musicals, but the music was still from the stage shows.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 2:11pm

When I referred to the latter part of the last century, I meant the period basically after the so-called golden age that you are thinking of as a part of it. So 1970+/-. 

When I say "dug a hole," I am referring to 2-3 things. First and foremost, the music was falling out of sync with what  most people were listening to (and yes I recognize that a lot of musical theatre lovers still love the earlier types of music, but that is by definition a niche market that defines the "hole"). Second the stories were out of sync with contemporary interests. And finally, we began to see spectacle substituting for substance and, later, branding pathetically determining what would be produced (what I called the garbage musicals above). 

The result of the "hole" was (and significantly remains) that the most talented composers, lyricists, and writers of subsequent periods (the next generations of Porters, Kerns, Rodgers, Hammerstein, etc.) were not made to feel welcome by the gatekeepers who were (and remain to some extent) enthralled by what you are. (Nothing wrong with that, but it does not translate into more people being interested in the art form.) Parallel to all of this we have Sondheim, unmentioned by you, who is pretty much sui generis. And yet as beloved as he is, he had very fleeting success scaring up an audience. 

One final comment about all of this. Musical theatre is also sui generis in relation to other forms of performing arts in that it is a commercial enterprise, which begs for "popularity." In the so-called golden age, musical theatre traveled in the same lanes as popular music. When that relationship failed to continue (in the time frame I discussed above), musical theatre became an anomaly. Can you imagine if opera or dance tried to be commercial?

 

[Penna2]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 4:27pm

Actually, I did mention Sondheim, who seemed to border the old school with the new school - Gypsy and West Side Story in collaboration, then on to Follies, etc. 

I do understand what you mean about the gatekeepers. Are there any new composers out there? I wonder. I admit I'm old and old school, but music used to bridge the age gap. I give you Mozart and Beethoven as examples! That's kind of a joke, but true. 

Why is Chicago still a success and Cababet - both dark and seeming in tune with a lot of the energy in today's world. Phantom is still alive and well around the world. I have my own ideas about why it failed on Broadway, but that's another story. Music Man drew an audience - was that just the stars power? Not my favorite musical - storywise or musically, but it was still a success.

From where I sit, it appears that originality and creativity are lacking in all levels of the entertainment industry. Starting with Disney and down. There don't seem to be any universal themes people can latch onto anymore, so people like me yearn for the old days and younger folks want to see their world, but the money isn't there or that bright spark of a new Sondheim hasn't shown up to put it out there.  

 

[bear88]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 6:53pm

HogansHero is correct. Songs from musicals used to be mainstream popular songs. That stopped around the mid-1950s. And with a few exceptions, it never returned. Even Hamilton, borrowing from 1990s rap and a massive success, never yielded an actual hit song. American Idiot, with new hit songs by Green Day, perhaps came the closest. As much as I enjoy Sondheim musicals, most of his shows were not commercially successful and he had one hit song. (It is obviously ironic that two of his biggest box office successes are running now.) Even Andrew Lloyd Webber peaked early, with Jesus Christ Superstar, as a writer of commercially successful pop songs.

Regular people have to be tricked into seeing musicals with trailers that hide the songs. There is always the occasional exception, but the divorce of musical theater from popular entertainment has meant that musical theater is always swimming against the tide.

Updated On: 12/26/23 at 06:53 PM

[Seb28]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 7:05pm

HogansHero said: " is that the music in very few if any musicals resonate for most people.."

Which music? For example, "Bohemian Rhapsody" is considered a number 1 hit in the history of the music world, which resonates for many people, and it is in fact in a musical too. So is nearly every other style of music.

I think it is more about the current style of musical writing that borders on parody and milks out musical cliche's.

 

 

[baritonewithtenortendencies]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 8:37pm

I just had a thought based on what everbody is saying

A lot of you have really really great things you're adding

Seb28, I agree that it does have a lot to do with honesty and characters pouring their emotions out through song rather than the music being used to basically poke fun at "how silly is it we're doing a musical you guys"

I love Harvey Fierstein, Cyndi Lauper, and a lot about Kinky Boots, but man is Land of Lola ever one misguided mess of a character introduction 

And I don't know how this happened because Harvey's song Svelte in the Torch Song Trilogy movie works perfectly to show "I'm a drag queen, this is my drag persona" without ever once saying the name "Virginia Hamm" 

That whole repeating the character's name a bunch of times thign is dumb

Like, I often find it cheesy when songs overuse the characters' names in lyrics at all

Like Suddenly Seymour is a rare exception to that because of how smartly written and emotionally raw it is, but it's also still a certain B Movie Cheesiness 

I adore Miss Saigon, and I agree that it's a well written work of art that is incredibly well put together and the music builds the narrative very well

I mean, Why God Why, for example, you get the entire scenario from the song, but you also get a much less personal and more universal feeling from it 

It's something a lot of Claude-Michel Schonberg's shows do really well

But I will say

Phanton never felt all that nautral to me 

I mean I think that "The Phantom of the opera is here" being repeated over and over is basically the same as "Alexander Hamilton, my name is Alexander Hamilton" 

Oh but then there's Jesus Christ Superstar where the characters are both themselves and a sort of metaphorical parallel of themselves

In that show, I think that almost every time a character's name is used, it's a double meaning

"You liar, you Judas", Jesus says to Judas

"Maybe I should just stay here and ruin your ambition... Christ! You deserve it!" Judas says to Christ. 

Also I realized:

A lot of people think that musicals means Disney 

Like they think all musicals are like Disney musicals

In some cases, that means they like musicals but don't really know any

In other cases, that means they don't like musicals and also don't really know any 

I mean I know of people who said they thought they liked musicals until they heard You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown

Like, say what you will, but that's a more or less objectively good score 

But it sure ain't Disney 

I've known just as many people who think musicals are all fairy tales and often trivial childrens' stories 

If only they knew about Hedwig and the Angry Inch, which genuinely keeps me up at night because of how disturbing and visceral a lot of it is

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/25/23 at 10:22pm

Penna2 said: "Actually, I did mention Sondheim, who seemed to border the old school with the new school - Gypsy and West Side Story in collaboration, then on to Follies, etc.

I do understand what you mean about the gatekeepers. Are there any new composers out there? I wonder. I admit I'm old and old school, but music used to bridge the age gap. I give you Mozart and Beethoven as examples! That's kind of a joke, but true.

Why is Chicago still a success and Cababet - both dark and seeming in tune with a lot of the energy in today's world. Phantom is still alive and well around the world. I have my own ideas about why it failed on Broadway, but that's another story. Music Man drew an audience - was that just the stars power? Not my favorite musical - storywise or musically, but it was still a success.

From where I sit, it appears that originality and creativity are lacking in all levels of the entertainment industry. Starting with Disney and down. There don't seem to be any universal themes people can latch onto anymore, so people like me yearn for the old days and younger folks want to see their world, but the money isn't there or that bright spark of a new Sondheim hasn't shown up to put it out there.

"

@Penna, sorry I overlooked your Sondheim reference but here again, his work is great but has rarely been successful commercially. Are there new (good) composers out there? Of course. Can they get in the door? Rarely. Are they the same people who are writing music that resonates now? Rarely. Even if you look at Miranda, he took a long time and had to do backflips. But all of these cherry picked examples do not add up to a healthy genre. The bottom line is that most people don't like what we are producing as musicals, and apropos of what is in #4 above, how many were dragged to Almost Famous or SLIH who will never return? (BTW, some of K&E has indeed risen above, although if you correct for star driven and demographics, I am not sure how comfortable Cabaret and Chicago make me. Similarly, I don't think anyone could seriously argue that the Music Man would have attracted a crowd without Jackman. And here again this is a show that reinforces the negative stereotype for the young and impressionable. Finally, yes there is too much garbage out there, but what is the chicken and what is the egg? 

@seb First of all what musical is BR in? It's a song that was famously written as a mock opera. When I talk about composing music, I mean music composed FOR a musical, and integrated into it as such. This is at the root of the problem. Moreover, BR is unique and does not define or explain contemporary resonance any more than Beethoven V does. I just don't sense that we are even talking about the same subject. 

[Seb28]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 6:30am

baritonewithtenortendencies said: "I just had a thought based on what everbody is saying"

Thanks for your reply, great points and thoughts!

I agree, I feel that the title song in Phantom does not fit with the rest of the show. It is too literal and it feels more like a concept recording idea. I accept it because the rest of the show is written well, but it always feels more like a very well staged moment that is just there to repeat the title of the show. 

What you say about the other musicals and people's opinions, very true too.

 

 

[Seb28]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 6:33am

HogansHero said: "@seb First of all what musical is BR in?."

It's in the musical "We will rock you". My point was that I knew people coming out of that show saying, "I thought I hated musicals but this was cool and sounded good". So like baritone says, the ideas people think they have about music, styles or musicals are not always based on reasonable facts.

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 12:52pm

Seb28 said: "HogansHero said: "@seb First of all what musical is BR in?."

It's in the musical "We will rock you". My point was that I knew people coming out of that show saying, "I thought I hated musicals but this was cool and sounded good". So like baritone says, the ideas people think they have about music, styles or musicals are not always based on reasonable facts."

WWRY is a jukebox show. As such, it has nothing to do with what I am discussing. It's a non sequitur. 

 

[dan94]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 3:27pm

People will put forward a million reasons as to why they think they don't like musicals, but at the end of the day I truly believe people don't like musicals because they cannot mentally keep up.

A typical musical uses at minimum 5 methods of communication, or, if you will, 5 "languages". Dialogue, lyrics and sung vocal lines, music (deciphering lyrics and understanding character/plot development that happens through music theory and compositional structures are different skills), dance, and visual (design choices, basic staging of a number, etc). 

We flip back and forth between 5 languages, almost always having multiple languages exist at the same time. And if you are not bilingual you get left in the dark.

The average person isn't able to articulate "the book scene was cut to the bare essentials to keep the running time down and the actor underplayed what little was left of the book scene meaning there was not a proper lead up to the song." They will know something is off, but unable to delve into what happened in any meaningful way, will simply throw a "people don't break into song in real life" around and be done with it.

When you look at what has been popular in the last 40 years, the shows that are popular have often cut down on languages for ease of viewing. (How closely do you have to follow lyrics in Phantom to still understand the show? Does Cats have a plot? What dialogue in Les Miz? Is the design in Hamilton minimalism or a reprieve from the bevy of words coming at you?)

It's true that we are not writing shows that resonate with the general public. But as an art form progresses, innovation will naturally only get harder for people to understand. If you've never listened to improvisational jazz or modern opera you'd probably have a hard time thinking the score of DOWAR is anything but noise. That is a commercial liability, but it's not something Guettel can worry about when writing the piece. We have become an art form for aficionados, but I don't think you can change that at this point without first demanding better rigorous arts education in the schools.

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 3:59pm

dan94 said: "People will put forward a million reasons as to why they think they don't like musicals, but at the end of the day I truly believe people don't like musicals because they cannot mentally keep up.”

 

And you somehow managed to come up with the most absurd one of all.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 6:49pm

This might be one of the most convuluted threads this board has ever seen. 

 

There are very few things in this world that EVERYONE likes.  We don't all watch sports....or all sports.  We don't all like horror films, or sushi or WHATEVER.   SO WHAT?!   It's not my job to change that.  It's not  the NFL's job to change that nor the sushi chef.   And you know what?  ITS FINE.

Over 220 thousand people saw a broadway show last week.  What's the problem?  

 

[baritonewithtenortendencies]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 6:54pm

TotallyEffed said: "dan94 said: "People will put forward a million reasons as to why they think they don't like musicals, but at the end of the day I truly believe people don't like musicals because they cannot mentally keep up.”



And you somehow managed to come up with the most absurd one of all."

You're not wrong. I can't really tell if that was some kind of joke. I think that most of the time musicals aren't hard to keep up with, unless they're written by like Sondheim or something. My family often can't keep up with Sondheim, William Finn, Jason Robert Brown, Leonard Bernstein, and all those other gay Jews I love. ... Jason Robert Brown is straight, actually. But y'know most other musical theatre they keep up with very easily. Like they have absolutely no trouble with Hamilton, somehow. And they get shows like Hairspray. But there are lots of people who get it and still don't like it. People who definitely mentally keep up but just don't like it for like a hundred other reasons. I find these reasons fascinating, but I don't mean it to dig at people who don't like musicals. 

 

And... 

dramamama611 said: "If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it? These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts."

I understand where you're coming from. In a way, you're making this a discussion, aren't you? But I think it kind of is a discussion to say "I noticed this thing, why do you people think this thing happens?" and for people to then respond with why they think it happens and people to disagree and explain why they disagree. I've seen some much more convoluted threads and the hyperbole you make is entirely pointless. 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 7:00pm

That's my tag or signature or whatever it's called here.  It shows up on every post I make, it has nothing to do with this specific conversation. (Yes, the most recent "upate" to the website made it less clear to see that's not part of my actual post.)

[Seb28]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 7:20pm

dramamama611 said: "There are very few things in this world that EVERYONE likes. We don't all watch sports....or all sports. We don't all like horror films, or sushi or WHATEVER. SO WHAT?! It's not my job to change that. It's not the NFL's job to change that nor the sushi chef. And you know what? ITS FINE.

Over 220 thousand people saw a broadway show last week. What's the problem? "

The fact that so many people who see a musical are surprised about how much they love it is not a problem. It is just a pity. And it is interesting to discuss and find out why their expectations did not match reality.

Is it about not being exposed to the artform before? Is it about a lack of musical or emotional development? Is it about unfounded prejudice? Is it about image? Is it about truly not understanding the language?

Can this be changed with education and exposure in schools and at home?

[MysteriousLady]

Posted: 12/26/23 at 7:20pm

I think Hogan has given the best answer. In the mid-60s popular music and Broadway music diverged. Most people have very narrow taste in music. 

Another reason: around that same time you saw the rise of the singer/songwriter. To this day the expectation that a singer should be singing their own songs has only gotten stronger in the popular culture. How many times have you heard someone criticized ("she doesn't even write her own songs etc."). Our culture developed ideas about "authenticity" and a disdain for what is seen as "fake." 

Seen through this prism, is it any wonder that our culture grew to dislike actors pretending to be someone else, singing music written by someone else? Obviously those of us on this board don't have a problem with it. Meryl Streep doesn't write her dialogue, so why should Sutton Foster write her own songs? 

But to modern audiences, this perceived lack of "authenticity" reads as "cringe" and is a big turn off.