Sally or Phyllis?- Page 2

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 12/10/11 at 5:43pm

This thread should be regularly bumped for paljoey's great account alone.

As for me, when I was 17 there was no question: I preferred Phyllis and thought Sally was something of a drip.

I don't agree that "In Buddy's Eyes" is totally a lie, however. Yes, it's another feeble attempt to make Ben jealous (Sally rode to the reunion on the short bus) and it's hardly the whole truth. But I think it's also true that Buddy treats Sally as if she's a princess and THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM! Buddy isn't the only one who wants the one he can't get. His devotion to Sally may make her feel safe and warm, but it doesn't make her feel thrilled and alive as she imagines she will feel with Ben!

But now that I am 40 years older and painfully aware that almost all of us cling to a folly or two, I appreciate Sally more than I did as a kid.

And I especially appreciate Dorothy Collins' performance now that I've heard two of the greatest singers alive, Barbara Cook and Vikki Carr, sing the part and sing it well.

If I were choosing today, I might prefer Sally if only because she has the greater emotional range to play. But I won't see the show again until it comes to L.A. in May; I respectfully reserve the right to change my mind.


Updated On: 12/10/11 at 05:43 PM

[FrauleinKost]

Posted: 12/10/11 at 11:43pm

I completely agree, Gaveston, though it hasn't been 40 years for me. At 16 when I first saw Follies, I barely paid any attention to Sally, really--it was all about Phyllis (and Carlotta). I guess I thought Sally was boring, who knows.

But, 10 years later--after being in relationships, getting married, having my heart broken, and making some bad decisions...it's Sally all the way for me. I can TOTALLY relate and empathize with this character.

[Emmaloucbway]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 2:59pm

I'd choose Team Phyllis.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 4:10pm

Well put, FrauleinKost. Every relationship has its myths (i.e., "follies") and the key to a healthy relationship is recognizing your own, not being magically free of them. (The Myth of Total Honesty is perhaps the biggest folly of all!)

Ultimately, I think that's the point of the show.

(BTW, I feel I owe it to my husband of 35 years to say I have not spent my life pining for a former lover. That's not why I appreciate Sally. I appreciate her because I accept that I am human, so I'm more willing to forgive her for being human as well.)

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 4:37pm

Phyllis. She's a survivor.

My only sympathy for Sally comes out of what she's become, not what she did to get there. I guess you could call it pity, not sympathy, actually. She's been a manipulative, ungrateful bitch her whole life and now she doesn't know any other way to get by.

[AMH]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 9:46pm

Sally! She's such a devastating character.

[SingOutLouise2]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 10:04pm

Sally.

[BroadwayFan12]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 11:17pm

I see Sally as delusional rather than manipulative. She was incapable of facing reality.

[chewy5000]

Posted: 12/11/11 at 11:45pm

Why not both? Syphilis!

[jayinchelsea]

Posted: 12/12/11 at 7:56am

Phyllis, of course.

[wiggum2]

Posted: 1/7/12 at 8:55pm

Bump for awesomeness and a question: I've never understood the song Too Many Mornings. If most of the Sally/Ben relationship was in Sally's head, Why does Ben sing that song with her? Is Sally imagining the song as well? Thanks for any help!

[PianoMann]

Posted: 1/7/12 at 9:08pm

@wiggum2:

My interpretation, especially influenced by the staging of this current revival, is that Ben is swept away by memories, memories of the Sally he loved back in 1941, and sings "Too Many Mornings" not to the Sally of 1971, at least in the beginning of the song, but to the Sally in his mind, the Sally he once loved.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 1/7/12 at 10:12pm

In the original staging, there was no question that Ben was thinking of Young Sally, since she spent the entire number in his arms. It is she he thinks he has missed for 40 years, not the real, middle-aged grandmother Sally who is actually in the room. It's only confusing on a recording, where one only hears the two older characters.

In my post above praising Barbara Cook's and Vikki Carr's singing of Sally, I didn't mean to slight Dorothy Collins. After all is said and done (and I like Peters very much on the new recording), I think Collins had the perfect voice for the character. Less showy, perhaps, but no less lovely and perfect for plain-Jane Sally. The ease with which she sings both the book score and "Losing My Mind" is astounding.

And I've been thinking how generous Collins was in the original: traipsing around in that drab pink dress, carrying what little plot there is, looking like a dwarf next to statuesque, glamorous Alexis Smith all in red, and facing PalJoey's considerable ire! Collins should have been awarded a special Tony for theatrical courage!

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/9/12 at 11:22am

Not since Our American Cousin has a bad play inspired such a crisis.

[ck12]

Posted: 1/9/12 at 12:35pm

Sally.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 1:29pm

Gaveston, I couldn't agree more that "In Buddy's Eyes" is not a lie.

First of all, Buddy does love Sally and in his eyes she is young and beautiful. Their marital problems don't imply otherwise.

Secondly, I don't believe for a minute that Sally isn't aware the Buddy loves her and sees her as young and beautiful. Her knowledge of this is, in one respect, the best thing about her life and no doubt, as in most relationships where someone like Sally is unhappy, a great source of guilt and self-loathing. He isn't enough for her but she feels like he should be and that there is something deeply wrong with her that he is not. She is deeply wounded that she couldn't have Ben whom she sees as the one who could have given her all that she wanted and feels deprived of. But as Phyllis knows all too well vis a vis Ben, "Careful the things you wish..."

"The best [Sally] ever thought [she'd] be" is there in Buddy's eyes. Not the "best" in terms of and "all things bright an beautiful" dreamlife with Ben, but the best in terms of her goodness and strength, of something that was once - no longer - "soulstirring and free of strife," of the wonderful young woman she once was. There is a painful understanding of loss of innocense in that line.

To the question at hand, I love both of these characters, especially when they are singing and are not constrained by that mess of a book.







Updated On: 1/11/12 at 01:29 PM

[ljay889]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 1:36pm

Sondheim has said "In Buddy's Eyes" is a lie, so it's clearly meant to be one.

When Sally (especially Bernadette's) sings "And all I ever dreamed I'd be. The best I ever thought of me. Is every minute there to see..... in Buddy's eyes" directly to Ben. I don't see how that can't be a lie.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 1:47pm

Sometimes characters take on a life of their own, departing from an author's intention. In this case, I have no qualms in saying that Sondheim is wrong, and that his lyrics have more depth than even he is giving himself credit for. As to how it's not a lie, I've explained my interpretation. It may be different than the author's, but I'm not one of the intentionalist school when it comes to explicating texts. Texts are meant to be interpreted.

Bottom line, I believe that a richer interpretation of who this woman is, and the story being told, is that she is telling the truth. And that, rather than what Sondheim claims to have intended (not that I doubt his sincerity, but sometimes author's intentions - like anyone else's - may be subconscious; whether there's a split between subconscious and conscious intent here I have no way of knowing), is what informs my belief. Others, including the author of course, can certainly disagree on what makes for a better interpretation of the song. Ultimately it's up to the actor and director entrusted with it.

Updated On: 1/11/12 at 01:47 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 3:45pm

Sondheim has said "In Buddy's Eyes" is a lie, so it's clearly meant to be one.

In addition to what henrik posted, I want to add that technically "In Buddy's Eyes" both is and is not a lie.

It IS a lie to the extent that Sally presents Buddy's love as the thing that makes her happy and gives her life meaning.

It IS NOT a lie to the extent that Buddy idolizes her as she describes it in the song.

Alas and like so many of us, Sally isn't grateful for Buddy's love; in fact she looks down on him for being such a chump (in her view). Buddy in turn has the same problem with Margie.

And while Sondheim is more aware than most writers, henrik is correct that the ultimate test is the work itself, not the author's intention. I think it's fine to look for clues in the latter, but one should avoid assuming the author's view is gospel.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 4:27pm

"It IS a lie to the extent that Sally presents Buddy's love as the thing that makes her happy and gives her life meaning."

Well, said. Gaveston, and there are isolated parts of the song that I recognize as undeniably untruthful. Life "does not seem exciting" to this woman. Whether she is holding fast to a momentary illusion with that thought or simply manipulating the truth to paint her life as brighter than it is to appeal to Ben, I would say it's the latter; but again, it can be played in different ways.

But the song is not that different than a great many speeches and songs in which characters at precise moments hide the awful truth from themselves and or others. To the more central question of whether the whole of the song is a lie, I think both Sally and Follies are served far better if it is not.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 4:48pm

I absolutely agree, henrik. Sally is lying when she says she is "lucky". Obviously. If she isn't lying about that there's no play.

But if she's lying about how Buddy treats her, then we end up with a play where it's virtually impossible to support either central couple. And that's not a very interesting play.

(Yes, I know some will say that's exactly what we find in FOLLIES as written, but I don't agree. I do want both couples to face facts and rebuild their marriages. I think Ben and Phyllis start down that road. Buddy and Sally's future is less clear to me at the end of the play, but we've discussed all that before.)

[pinoyidol2006]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 5:38pm

Phyllis.

I understand the sympathy for Sally, because she has been deluding herself. Other than "Losing My Mind", I don't care for anything Sally does.

Thank you, PalJoey for expressing my exact thoughts with more sass than I ever could ever muster with my writing skills.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 6:16pm

Actually, Gaveston, I don't think Sally is lying there. The lines are:

So life is ducky
And time goes flying
And I'm so lucky
I feel like crying,

I think we might be confusing "lying" with paradox. If this were a woman who was merely lying to paint her life as much happier than it is, she would never say such a thing.

Come to think of it, something similar may be happening with "life is slow but it seems exciting." Sally carefully doesn't say "is" exciting; she says "seems," and to the contrary she says it "is" slow; calling attention to appearance, decorum and expectations versus what is really in her heart.

Updated On: 1/11/12 at 06:16 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 6:51pm

Sorry, henrik, but I think you're reaching.

Here's the truth as Sally understands it:

"The sun comes up,
I think about you.
The coffee cup,
I think about you.
I want you so, it's like I'm losing my mind."

She's so poisoned by regret, she can't even feel her real life, much less appreciate it.

That's not a woman who thinks her life "seems" exciting, for whom time goes "flying" or who feels "so lucky." No, that's the woman who slips and admits she lives life "like a shut-in."

Consider "No, I haven't got cooks and cars and diamonds..."

Who says or even thinks that except someone who misses those very things?

I'll grant you that Sally probably knows that she is SUPPOSED to feel excited and lucky. That's the basic Cinderella dream: you meet a guy who treats you like a princess and live happily ever after.

But I don't for a moment believe she actually feels any of that. If she did, she wouldn't have run off to find Ben, leaving wonderful Buddy in the desert.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/11/12 at 7:20pm

Gaveston, those lyrics are from Follies' Loveland sequence, not a realistic episode in the play.

Even if it were a song sung by Sally in "real time," the words don't have to be taken as literally as all that; that she seriously doesn't think about anything other than Ben. It is a torch song.

Yes, she's poisoned by regret, but I disagree, Peters' very interesting interpretation notwithstanding, that she is definitively so far removed from reality as to have no sense cerebrally of the good things in her life, of how she "should" appreciate them, and that she just can't. In fact the condition of neurotic self-contradiction that I contend she self-consciously inhabits seems to me to be so quintessentially Sondheimian, something he famously visits again and again in Follies and many other musicals (a theme he, more than any other lyricist, has perfected), that I don't think it's at all a reach to apply it to Sally.

And I never implied that she didn't feel a sense of deprivation about cars, cooks and diamonds. To the contrary, I talked about her marked sense of deprivation already. I simply think this is a woman who is aware of feeling deprived and feels a sense of guilt about it but is willing to take a now or never midlife risk - fueled by delusion - to go off with Ben.

And the lines don't say that she views her life as exciting (although I've already acknowledged that she may be saying just that, albeit insincerely or in a momentary self-delusion) but that life "seems" exciting. The line doesn't simply say "I feel lucky," it says "And I"m so lucky I feel like crying." Which are very different things, with the actual line clearly conveying irony and defeatism. The line is preceding it by "life is ducky and time goes flying," which are clearly not to be taken at face value. "Ducky" is a word rarely used without sardonic intent.

Subtext, paradox, kidding oneself, manipulation pf Ben are all involved in this brilliant song. I'm not even really sure if we are in disagreement about anything here (as is often the case).







Updated On: 1/11/12 at 07:20 PM