Sutton Foster's Jennifer Holiday Impression- Page 2

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 4:43pm

^That's a slight improvement on your earlier analogy, but I think you're still missing the key point, which is that Pluto's designation as a planet does not effect Pluto in any way (because it's inanimate, and billions of miles away). Whereas something that was once considered acceptable behavior still had the power to harm marginalized people EVEN DURING the time period in which it was considered acceptable. 

A better analogy might be the culture around cigarettes and second hand smoke - except even that analogy is imperfect, in the sense that individual people don't have the ability to conduct their own scientific studies on the effects of cigarette smoke, whereas people in 2010 had the ability to ask Black people how they felt about certain comments/behaviors. 

Again, I'm not advocating for ruining the careers of AKB or Foster, because I agree with you that the context, and the large gap in time, are important factors. But it's important to remember that things can cause harm even when we aren't/weren't aware of it. 

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:01pm

I think the difference is that I'm using the analogy to represent the broader circumstances around whether something is socially acceptable, rather than the more nuanced question of whether specific individuals might be harmed. I don't doubt that in 2010 you could find some people who were offended by it, but that's also true of a lot of things that aren't inherently "wrong". We openly mock Karens to this day for being offended by things that the rest of society considers to be frivolous. People can be offended by things that are nevertheless completely socially acceptable on a broader scale.

(Also, I can't explain it, but I really like rhetorically dissecting analogies. I've taken this thread totally off the rails just because I really wanted to dig in on that analogy.)

[felixleiter]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:01pm

Sorry if this is controversial but the AKB recording is reprehensible behavior for anyone.   He and I are of similar ages (I'm a bit older actually) and I can't imagine ever in my time performing, (even as a student before I was a professional) even thinking of going on to a stage and doing anything remotely resembling that.   It's shameful. 

[morosco]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:18pm

Is Shocantelle Brown okurrr with everyone?.

[Alexander Lamar]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:27pm

morosco said: "Is Shocantelle Brownokurrr with everyone?."

I miss the world two minutes ago where I didn’t know this existed. 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:33pm

 

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:38pm

ctorres23 said: "I think the difference is that I'm using the analogy to represent the broader circumstances around whether something is socially acceptable, rather than the more nuanced question of whether specific individuals might be harmed."

 

Both of these angles are important to consider. I’m not dismissing the former, but you seem to be dismissing the latter. There is no point in discussing “offensiveness” in a way that divorces it from examining harm (direct or indirect, individual or systemic, intentional or unintentional). Because that’s the whole point. 

And yeah, I’m sure there are things that I regularly do today that I will someday learn perpetuate harm in some way. And maybe the reason I don’t realize it is because I see others doing the same, and no one around me is saying it’s wrong. But If/when I gain that knowledge, I will do my best to adjust my behavior. And yes, I’ll hope that people don’t actively seek to punish me for things I did before I had that insight. But I also won’t look back on those actions and think “yeah, I was definitely right at the time.”

 

morsco said: "Is Shocantelle Brown okurrr with everyone?." 

 

No, for all the same reasons. It was mentioned in this board last year, and even in 2010 there were some who thought it might be offensive, even if their objections weren't particularly well-received by the board: 

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1019168&page=1

[uncageg]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 5:54pm

ctorres23 said: "Judging something from the past through the lens of current sensibilities is such B.S.

Good people tend to try and behave in ways that match society's standards of acceptability; if society changes, good people will also change. Retroactively judging them for something that was fine at the time (as evidenced by the fact that it was performed publicly) doesn't accomplish anything."

What those students did in the KB video was not "fine" at the time. It had to be between 2005 and 2007. What they were doing has been offensive long before that time.  But honestly, it will be fine in some places and for some people for a very long time.

So who sets these "fine/acceptable" time frames?

 

Posted: 6/11/21 at 6:38pm

JBroadway said: "And yes, I’ll hope that people don’t actively seek to punish me for things I did before I had that insight. But I also won’t look back on those actions and think “yeah, I was definitely right at the time."

I'm a full-on carnivore but I am reasonably convinced that in 50-100 years the idea that we systematically create and then slaughter billions of animals so that we can eat them is going to become a point of contention. I can't even really morally justify it now, so I just try to ignore the realities of it in order to continue to enjoy that delicious chicken and beef.

JBroadway said: "https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1019168&page=1"

Damn, this is a phenomenal time capsule for how this stuff was perceived at the time.

Updated On: 6/11/21 at 06:38 PM

[bk]

Posted: 6/11/21 at 11:35pm

Does this inanity ever stop? Everyone used to parody her singing style because it was funny to do so. Just like when people parody Julie Andrews' singing style or Anthony Newley's or whoever has a unique voice that can be imitated. Do people really have nothing better to do than stir this **** up?

[Dolly80]

Posted: 6/12/21 at 1:17am

PutonyourWarPaint said: ""she was NOT doing a generalised re-interpretation of a song standard that belongs to a black performer in the show"

Correct. You're thinking of Andrew Keenan-Bolger...



"Ah man, that is bad. Really bad. Shame on them performing it and that cackling audience. 

 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/12/21 at 1:45am

Yeah, I'm missing the part where this is offensive to entire race of people. Her voice is iconic, especially on that song, and she's just doing an impression of Holliday singing that song. 

The AKB thing... that's ... messy ... 

The Shocantelle thing is ... weird, but again, to be real, those people do exist. I've met many of them. So it might seem a bit off-color, but I've met those people many a time. 

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 6/13/21 at 10:32am

Ok, the term "cancel culture" may be over the top.  But there is a mob mentality over things that are in the scheme of things trivial. 

What's more, the energy that goes into criticism of individuals over their trespasses is a huge distraction from energy that should be going in true progress.  We live in a world of optics and virtue signaling.  

If a great many people would relish attacking celebrities over their wrongs a little less and relish contributing to collective change and progress vis a vis the same ills, the world would be a lot better place.

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:00am

henrikegerman said: "Ok, the term"cancel culture" may be over the top. But there is a mob mentality over things that are in the scheme of things trivial.

What's more, the energy that goes into criticism of individuals over their trespasses is a huge distraction from energy that should be going in true progress. We live in a world of optics and virtue signaling.

If a great manypeople would relish attacking celebrities over their wrongs a little less and relish contributing to collective change and progress vis a vis the same ills, the world would be a lot better place."

This! This! This!

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 6/14/21 at 11:03am

I also feel that if Foster were to do a concert today, she probably wouldn't sing that song, or if she did maybe not sing it in a "Jennifer Holliday-ish" way. I still don't know why we are able to judge someone's actions from  10 years ago with modern sensibilities. I sure as hell know I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago, and I don't think anyone can really argue that they haven't as well. 

Also, where is the conversation about "Jagged Little Pill"? I guess that weekend we were all upset and arguing about it has past, and now it doesn't matter? I'm sure it will come up again, at Tony's and when the show reopens, but then another show will open and we will move on. We can't just make a Tweet, and then feel like we have accomplished "sticking it to the man", like every cause that happens these days.