#226
Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:18pm
I didn't realize that ignorance meant that somebody deserved to be belittled and attacked.
The Heckler: Why I'm allergic to Stephen Sondheim — Page 10
#227
Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:27pm
Are you talking about the way AE belittles and attacks people?
Because I agree no one should be spoken to the way he speaks to people.
Because I agree no one should be spoken to the way he speaks to people.
....but the world goes 'round
#228
You're asking the right questions, tazber.
Unfortunately, you will likely not get the right answers.
Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:37pm
You're asking the right questions, tazber.
Unfortunately, you will likely not get the right answers.
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
#229
Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:56pm
All AE ever does is invade any thread discussing anything he finds distasteful, insulting everyone in it for discussing it, and then having a panicked Nixon-esque paranoid freakout about the shadow mafia that's ruining theater.
#230
Posted: 3/23/15 at 2:09pm
I never said that After Eight wasn't belittling and attacking people in this thread. He is. However, about a trillion other people have already told him that, while everyone else seems to just let icecrembenjamin say equally nasty things to other posters. If I voiced my discontentment with After Eight's behavior I would be one in a thousand, but unfortunately he is not the only one who seems to have forgotten his manners.
#231
Posted: 3/23/15 at 2:21pm
Don't we all know that After Eight hates Sondheim? It's not a surprise, people. He's rude and doesn't like good things, we get it.
"Contentment, it seems, simply happens. It appears accompanied by no bravos and no tears."
#232
Posted: 3/23/15 at 2:37pm
what ignorant things have i said? Oh icecreambenjamin blocked me ! Oh well!
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#233
Posted: 3/23/15 at 2:49pm
"I never said that After Eight wasn't belittling and attacking people in this thread. He is."
Excuse me. I attacked no one in this thread.
On the contrary, I came here to PRAISE, and to express admiration and gratitude. To Lloyd Evans, for his wonderful article. To the posters who stood up to the bullies and spoke their minds.
Again, to them I give praise.
Excuse me. I attacked no one in this thread.
On the contrary, I came here to PRAISE, and to express admiration and gratitude. To Lloyd Evans, for his wonderful article. To the posters who stood up to the bullies and spoke their minds.
Again, to them I give praise.
#234
Posted: 3/23/15 at 3:02pm
And that, everyone, is called "passive-aggressive"!
C'mon, AE...admit it! You are Sondheim!
C'mon, AE...admit it! You are Sondheim!
"Carson has combined his passion for helping children with his love for one of Cincinnati's favorite past times - cornhole - to create a unique and exciting event perfect for a corporate outing, entertaining clients or family fun."
"In Oz, the verb is douchifizzation." PRS
"In Oz, the verb is douchifizzation." PRS
#235
Posted: 3/23/15 at 3:45pm
I actually enjoy a lot of Sondheim, particularly in the words (not always the music). The only thing in the article I do agree with is what I'm assuming he's trying to say Sondheim musicals are "pretentious"... Back in the "golden era" of Broadway, Cole Porter and Irving Berlin were the "pop" writers of their day.
That's essentially the reason I'm such a big Frank Wildhorn fan. Who says theatre has to be some particular style? Its a shame artists like Ariana Grande who got her start in musical theatre don't do more to promote it when they hit big time.
That's essentially the reason I'm such a big Frank Wildhorn fan. Who says theatre has to be some particular style? Its a shame artists like Ariana Grande who got her start in musical theatre don't do more to promote it when they hit big time.
#236
Posted: 3/23/15 at 4:57pm
Phillypinto is that you in drag?
Seeing you asked-mine is from the Jean Paul Gaultier exhibition.
Still waiting to hear your Sondheim audition songs so we know what to expect before we fork out big money for your Broadway debut.
PS. Perhaps if Mr Sondheim went shopping and bought some new clothes[Gaultier?] he might be more relevant to a younger audience[said in jest].
Seeing you asked-mine is from the Jean Paul Gaultier exhibition.
Still waiting to hear your Sondheim audition songs so we know what to expect before we fork out big money for your Broadway debut.
PS. Perhaps if Mr Sondheim went shopping and bought some new clothes[Gaultier?] he might be more relevant to a younger audience[said in jest].
Updated On: 3/23/15 at 04:57 PM
#237
Posted: 3/23/15 at 5:12pm
I'm in the shadow mafia that's ruining theater
#238
Posted: 3/23/15 at 5:35pm
Dave- While I enjoy Sondheim shows, I really understand your analogy with his shows and the IKEA painting. I have a friend who worships Sondheim but isn't familiar with any of his shows, even Into the Woods, Gypsy, or Sweeney Todd. That particular friend figured out that Sondheim was a big deal in the theatre realm and just kinda went with it, saying things like "Oh yeah, Company is like, a really important Sondheim show." (But they would never catch a Ladies Who Lunch reference) Now, this is only one account but it's not just with musical theatre. Lots of people will say things like "Beyonce is the queen!!" and can't name more than 5 of her songs. It's all name recognition and status.
Personally, I find Stephen Sondheim's shows just as convoluted as they are interesting and innovative (in my opinion) and completely understand why some people are just not into it.
Also, I've enjoyed your comments dave, very insightful!
Personally, I find Stephen Sondheim's shows just as convoluted as they are interesting and innovative (in my opinion) and completely understand why some people are just not into it.
Also, I've enjoyed your comments dave, very insightful!
Updated On: 3/23/15 at 05:35 PM
#239
Posted: 3/23/15 at 7:19pm
Who are the bullies? Who are the bad guys?
Honestly, yes, opinions could have been presented nicer...
but, it seems that the majority of those who argued against Sondheim haters have and still do present legitimate arguments.
Is writing nice, long, structured paragraphs called bullying? I guess that's a new definition.
Also...I'm still trying to figure out "the truth" A8 speaks of. Is "the truth" supposed to be a his pet name for his opinion? Probably. Opinion should just be called "opinion" though. It makes more sense...
Also...I'm still waiting for those data charts/graphs/tables proving that everyone in every Sondheim audience hated his shows...when I get this data, I will let this argument to rest....
Honestly, yes, opinions could have been presented nicer...
but, it seems that the majority of those who argued against Sondheim haters have and still do present legitimate arguments.
Is writing nice, long, structured paragraphs called bullying? I guess that's a new definition.
Also...I'm still trying to figure out "the truth" A8 speaks of. Is "the truth" supposed to be a his pet name for his opinion? Probably. Opinion should just be called "opinion" though. It makes more sense...
Also...I'm still waiting for those data charts/graphs/tables proving that everyone in every Sondheim audience hated his shows...when I get this data, I will let this argument to rest....
#240
Posted: 3/23/15 at 7:29pm
"Excellent melodies that go somewhere, excellent lyrics that go somewhere, and the rare ability of combining them, so that you never feel like a note or a word comes out of the blue."
Okay. Here is my response. It seems previous posts, and this post (before being updated, seems to say that a good melody is an easily hummable one.
This is where I disagree wholeheartedly. Saying that a hummable melody is a good one, is like saying a good singer is based on the amount of high noted he/she can hit.
(And I personally can sing along to, hum, quite a few Sondheim songs, upon first viewing too...)
I think Sondheim is a master at this. They way to melody moves at ease, changes with the character, explores the inner complexities and emotions of the characters, serves the story, and has a clear purpose rather than being **insert random song here*....I find that to be masterful. There's a reason he's been praised so much...he's a master, though, obviously, a select group of people disagree with him being a "master"
Also...anybody who is taking this Heckler article seriously, and thinks it deserves praise should be ashamed, since it was done humorously, sarcastically, and on a website called "The Heckler"="The Troll"
...I guess some people like to look over that don't they? Anything to beat the Broadway bad guys, right? Yeah...that makes since.
Okay. Here is my response. It seems previous posts, and this post (before being updated, seems to say that a good melody is an easily hummable one.
This is where I disagree wholeheartedly. Saying that a hummable melody is a good one, is like saying a good singer is based on the amount of high noted he/she can hit.
(And I personally can sing along to, hum, quite a few Sondheim songs, upon first viewing too...)
I think Sondheim is a master at this. They way to melody moves at ease, changes with the character, explores the inner complexities and emotions of the characters, serves the story, and has a clear purpose rather than being **insert random song here*....I find that to be masterful. There's a reason he's been praised so much...he's a master, though, obviously, a select group of people disagree with him being a "master"
Also...anybody who is taking this Heckler article seriously, and thinks it deserves praise should be ashamed, since it was done humorously, sarcastically, and on a website called "The Heckler"="The Troll"
...I guess some people like to look over that don't they? Anything to beat the Broadway bad guys, right? Yeah...that makes since.
#241
Posted: 3/23/15 at 7:54pm
"While I enjoy Sondheim shows, I really understand your analogy with his shows and the IKEA painting."
Well, there certainly are poseurs - people who claim to love certain perceived-to-be "hip" artists without really knowing much about them. It reminds me of a scene in the movie "The Squid and the Whale" that came out about ten years ago - one of the main characters, in an attempt to look sophisticated and smart, casually namedrops Franz Kafka. When the person he's talking to asks him what he thought of "The Metamorphosis," he stumbles and declares it "Kafkaesque" - and it becomes obvious that he's never actually read any of his work. But that kind of thing isn't really an argument against the artists - there's no doubt that many people do legitimately know and love the work of Kafka (and Sondheim and McCarthy and Reich and Vonnegut and so on and so forth.)
"Also, I've enjoyed your comments dave, very insightful!"
Yeah, I guess I must not be seeing those "insightful" comments. The only insight Dave has provided is that he doesn't know much about Sondheim's work or songwriting in general. Starting from his assertion that "Sondheim is why so many people hate musical theater," he's been pretty much completely wrong through this entire thread.
I mean, you can't really make a valid argument that the music is "random." Someone who actually knows anything about music composition and development can see that there's purpose to the notes that Sondheim writes. Most major composers, Sondheim included, also have a sort of "signature" - something that makes their work recognizable and distinguished from others. Most people who are musically trained and who have some familiarity with Sondheim would be able to tell one of his tunes from, say, something by Rodgers or something by Guettel or Kander, regardless of whether or not they're familiar with the particular work.
That doesn't mean you have to like it, of course. There are lots of acclaimed artists whose work I don't like. But claiming that it's "random" is objectively incorrect. That argument can only be made from a position of ignorance.
Edit: Here's that "Squid and the Whale" clip - I've always found it quite amusing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaWgRw78Y1M
Well, there certainly are poseurs - people who claim to love certain perceived-to-be "hip" artists without really knowing much about them. It reminds me of a scene in the movie "The Squid and the Whale" that came out about ten years ago - one of the main characters, in an attempt to look sophisticated and smart, casually namedrops Franz Kafka. When the person he's talking to asks him what he thought of "The Metamorphosis," he stumbles and declares it "Kafkaesque" - and it becomes obvious that he's never actually read any of his work. But that kind of thing isn't really an argument against the artists - there's no doubt that many people do legitimately know and love the work of Kafka (and Sondheim and McCarthy and Reich and Vonnegut and so on and so forth.)
"Also, I've enjoyed your comments dave, very insightful!"
Yeah, I guess I must not be seeing those "insightful" comments. The only insight Dave has provided is that he doesn't know much about Sondheim's work or songwriting in general. Starting from his assertion that "Sondheim is why so many people hate musical theater," he's been pretty much completely wrong through this entire thread.
I mean, you can't really make a valid argument that the music is "random." Someone who actually knows anything about music composition and development can see that there's purpose to the notes that Sondheim writes. Most major composers, Sondheim included, also have a sort of "signature" - something that makes their work recognizable and distinguished from others. Most people who are musically trained and who have some familiarity with Sondheim would be able to tell one of his tunes from, say, something by Rodgers or something by Guettel or Kander, regardless of whether or not they're familiar with the particular work.
That doesn't mean you have to like it, of course. There are lots of acclaimed artists whose work I don't like. But claiming that it's "random" is objectively incorrect. That argument can only be made from a position of ignorance.
Edit: Here's that "Squid and the Whale" clip - I've always found it quite amusing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaWgRw78Y1M
Updated On: 3/23/15 at 07:54 PM
#242
Posted: 3/23/15 at 8:15pm
"Excellent melodies that go somewhere, excellent lyrics that go somewhere, and the rare ability of combining them, so that you never feel like a note or a word comes out of the blue."
Wow, that's a really good description of Sondheim. Few lyricists in any genre are as adept as he is at choosing just the right words that are a joy to hear, that seem natural coming from the person singing them, and that reveal new information and expand on the character and situation. He's easily the most psychologically incisive lyricist out there.
As for melody, there are few tunes in musical theater more beautiful and memorable than "Finishing the Hat," and "Johanna," and "Not a Day Goes By," and "Losing My Mind," and "A Bowler Hat," and "Anyone Can Whistle," and "Being Alive," and "The Night Waltz," and...
I mean, you must be talking about Sondheim, right? Certainly you're not talking about the incredibly repetitive music of Schoenberg and the barely adequate lyric-writing of a Boublil?
Wow, that's a really good description of Sondheim. Few lyricists in any genre are as adept as he is at choosing just the right words that are a joy to hear, that seem natural coming from the person singing them, and that reveal new information and expand on the character and situation. He's easily the most psychologically incisive lyricist out there.
As for melody, there are few tunes in musical theater more beautiful and memorable than "Finishing the Hat," and "Johanna," and "Not a Day Goes By," and "Losing My Mind," and "A Bowler Hat," and "Anyone Can Whistle," and "Being Alive," and "The Night Waltz," and...
I mean, you must be talking about Sondheim, right? Certainly you're not talking about the incredibly repetitive music of Schoenberg and the barely adequate lyric-writing of a Boublil?
#243
Posted: 3/23/15 at 8:42pm
sweetlips, umm no thats only the world famous opera singer RENEE FLEMING!!! Haven't you ever heard of her???
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#244
Posted: 3/23/15 at 8:49pm
I've always appreciated Sondheim's ability to put the words and the music together in a way that makes it feel like each one is coming out of the other. There's an almost conversationality to his music, in that sense, it's so rare that a Sondheim song feels like one part of it was written first. Like, one of my favorite songs of his is The Miller's Son, particularly the final section:
"In the meanwhile there are mouths to be kissed
Before mouths to be fed
And there's many a tryst and there's many a bed
There's a lot I'll have missed
But I'll not have been dead when I die
And a person should celebrate everything passing by
And I shall marry the miller's son"
The galloping, slightly fearful but triumphant music, the way he holds on certain words and rolls over others in a way that feels natural, the placement of the song as basically the eleven o'clock number to underline the useless frivolity of the rest of the characters' activities and point at our own mortality. I find it very exciting songwriting, and that's the appeal of his work, at least for me, if not necessarily for others.
"In the meanwhile there are mouths to be kissed
Before mouths to be fed
And there's many a tryst and there's many a bed
There's a lot I'll have missed
But I'll not have been dead when I die
And a person should celebrate everything passing by
And I shall marry the miller's son"
The galloping, slightly fearful but triumphant music, the way he holds on certain words and rolls over others in a way that feels natural, the placement of the song as basically the eleven o'clock number to underline the useless frivolity of the rest of the characters' activities and point at our own mortality. I find it very exciting songwriting, and that's the appeal of his work, at least for me, if not necessarily for others.
#245
Posted: 3/23/15 at 8:59pm
Phillydilly--not a question of never heard of her[you opera snob], it's not recognising her in your little picture.
Maybe that's you she is cuddling--I need opera glasses.
Maybe that's you she is cuddling--I need opera glasses.
#246
Posted: 3/23/15 at 9:03pm
This thread is horrifying. You all are arguing over someone's meaningless opinion on a composer. I mean, it's not like there are serious problems happening out there in the real world or anything...
If only we all put this much thought and energy and time into positive social change.
If only we all put this much thought and energy and time into positive social change.
#247
Posted: 3/23/15 at 9:27pm
I actually genuinely thought that the IKEA painting was really good.
#248
Posted: 3/23/15 at 9:31pm
Seahag2, thanks, that's very kind of you.
Consistency, I don't think that is an accurate description for Sondheim at all, as the music and the lyrics are often as disconnected as can be and every time it tends to go somewhere it is interrupted by a disjointed chord, repetition or pause. At many times it's just like "I'm going to the supemarket today, it's fun, fun, nothing but fun, I like to buy...pause...a loaf of bread....pause....cause I love bread. It's fun and bliss. And bliss and fun. And bloss and fin. I have a grin. Oh dearie (pause) what a sin". A random dropping of 4 word sentences where the last word is always sung in a high and short way in a childish melody is what he does all the time. When it comes to ballads it annoys me that in, for example, "Send in the clowns". The first 2 lines have the same melody, a melody which is too simple and basic (uninteresting) for my taste. Then the "send in the clowns" sentence is repeated several times. Which doesn't add anything and is tiresome to listen to. Then there is this "bridge" that also leads to nowhere "sure of my lines, no one is there". And then it starts all over again with "don't you love farce". While the part before didn't go anywhere. It's like stopping a show, and then start over again for no reason. This combined with the repetition and out of the blue melodies makes it very uninteresting to me. By no means it matches that description.
Consistency, I don't think that is an accurate description for Sondheim at all, as the music and the lyrics are often as disconnected as can be and every time it tends to go somewhere it is interrupted by a disjointed chord, repetition or pause. At many times it's just like "I'm going to the supemarket today, it's fun, fun, nothing but fun, I like to buy...pause...a loaf of bread....pause....cause I love bread. It's fun and bliss. And bliss and fun. And bloss and fin. I have a grin. Oh dearie (pause) what a sin". A random dropping of 4 word sentences where the last word is always sung in a high and short way in a childish melody is what he does all the time. When it comes to ballads it annoys me that in, for example, "Send in the clowns". The first 2 lines have the same melody, a melody which is too simple and basic (uninteresting) for my taste. Then the "send in the clowns" sentence is repeated several times. Which doesn't add anything and is tiresome to listen to. Then there is this "bridge" that also leads to nowhere "sure of my lines, no one is there". And then it starts all over again with "don't you love farce". While the part before didn't go anywhere. It's like stopping a show, and then start over again for no reason. This combined with the repetition and out of the blue melodies makes it very uninteresting to me. By no means it matches that description.
#249
Posted: 3/23/15 at 9:32pm
"If only we all put this much thought and energy and time into positive social change"
haha thats the smartest thing I've ever heard you say
SweetLips, I actually like that term opera snob!! Its probably pretty accurate about me too haha
haha thats the smartest thing I've ever heard you say
SweetLips, I actually like that term opera snob!! Its probably pretty accurate about me too haha
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#250
Posted: 3/23/15 at 9:43pm
Well, I've said my piece. A lot of circular discussion going on here.
So, I will just say this. There is no need to argue for Sondheim. His extensive awards biography does all of the work. The fact that he is the most acclaimed living Broadway composer also argues in his favor.
A lot of people like his work. However, a few people don't. Those who don't like him just don't like him and they can't be argued with as it is a personal taste.
However, when one starts to have disillusions about "evil groups", and starts to group a group of people sharing a common opinion as bullies and "evil" is going too far.
But...anyway! Here's to Sondheim and to his deserved success!
So, I will just say this. There is no need to argue for Sondheim. His extensive awards biography does all of the work. The fact that he is the most acclaimed living Broadway composer also argues in his favor.
A lot of people like his work. However, a few people don't. Those who don't like him just don't like him and they can't be argued with as it is a personal taste.
However, when one starts to have disillusions about "evil groups", and starts to group a group of people sharing a common opinion as bullies and "evil" is going too far.
But...anyway! Here's to Sondheim and to his deserved success!
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