The Heckler: Why I'm allergic to Stephen Sondheim- Page 8

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:43pm

thats good PianoMann, I'm glad! Im going to be a big Broadway Star one day, and you guys are going to be flocking to the theatre to see me!!!

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:44pm

It seems to me you're not giving an opinion ("I don't care for 'Send in the Clowns,'" for example) so much as trying to assert something as fact (only old people know "Send in the Clowns") without backing it up.

Everyone is entitled to have--and express--differing opinions. That's what makes the board interesting. But when people try to turn their opinions into fact, it invites disputation.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:46pm

F*ck you, Phillypinto.

That comes from the bottom of my heart. With your attitude, you won't be in a Broadway show if you blew Cameron Mackintosh.

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 08:46 PM

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:46pm

"that assertion is based on the fact that even kids i did theatre with in high school didn't know a lot of Sondheim stuff."

Okay.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:47pm

"Im going to be a big Broadway Star one day, and you guys are going to be flocking to the theatre to see me!!!"

Your delusions are unbelievable.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:52pm

Really Pinto? I knew what "Send In The Clowns" was when I was 12 and please be respectful and professional to others who have a different viewpoint and opinion next time.

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 08:52 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:54pm

...does phillypinto not know what "at an impasse" means?

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 8:56pm

I don't really understand this whole "how famous is "send in the clowns" discussion.
Yes, I know the song, but I always skipped it in the "Hey mr. Producer concert dvd" and other CD's, because I just could not bear it and thought it was not interesting and the melody was too simple. Just like I skip tv channels today when I see Nicki Minaj' "Anaconda". Knowing it doesn't mean it is of any interest.

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 08:56 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:15pm

I don't think I've seen Sondheim compared to Nicki Minaj before.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:17pm

You have got to be f*cking kidding me.

Nobody defending Sondheim is conflating mainstream recognition with quality by default. That's kind of point?

People are just responding to a ridiculous claim about one song. Like. Are we really arguing on a board DEVOTED to theatre whether "Send in the Clowns" is a well-known song? Please. I've never liked the song. That doesn't change the fact that it's one of the most famous songs ever written.

By the way, Phillypinto, I'm not very much older than you are.

Also. The notion that everyone is entitled to their opinion doesn't mean that all opinions are equal. Opinions that are based on knowledge, expertise, research, or reason are not the same as pulling stuff out of your ass.




Updated On: 3/22/15 at 09:17 PM

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:41pm

Somewhere in the middle of a King and I post I asserted that up to half of the regulars here would probably rank Sondheim over Rodgers. I took some flak for that, from After Eight for one:

"Probably a third to a half of the posters here would put Sondheim over Rodgers."

You have GOT to be kidding. Truly, you have GOT to be kidding. Yes, I know that there are some brainwashed and/or brainwashing and/or hopeless and/or corrosive and/or corroded individuals here--- but surely nowhere near THAT many!

I pointed out that to an outsider the number of topics devoted to Sondheim or to one of his shows on this board made up a substantial fraction of all topics.

I referred to a topic where each was asked to name the ten best scores written for a musical. Of the fifty or so who complied, full near half of them included two or three or four scores by Sondheim.

Nevertheless, I kind of took my statement back, but now I'm not entirely sure.

My first exposure was when my father brought home from work the Company album, assuming that might mother would like it since she liked Broadway songs and this had won the Tony.

But my mother was used to a show opening like: There's a bright golden haze on the meadow, There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. What she got with Company was the jarring Bobby baby Bobby bubbi...

I've become more open to Sondheim over the years, although I don't ever think I could understand the merit of Sunday in the Park with George

But I've learned that there is a lot of life after "Clowns." I don't know that Rodgers ever wrote as fine a song about the aftermath of a shattered relationship with the punch of "Not a Day Goes By."

And as a lyricist there is no dispute as to his genius. If all else were to fail, West Side Story would be his monument. After all, his mentor was Oscar Hammerstein.


Updated On: 3/22/15 at 09:41 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:54pm

This thread has been eminently gratifying.

First, of course, to his everlasting credit, the great article by Lloyd Evans that told everything just as it is.

Perhaps even more heartening is seeing that despite decades of indoctrination and intimidation, despite the bullying, the invective, the disparagement to try to stifle dissent, despite the awards, the accolades, the non-stop hype, despite the endless tributes, the birthday commemorations, the naming of a theatre, the seeking out of fifty performers to exclaim "genius," the crossword puzzles, and heaven knows what else, there are nonetheless individuals who actually let their own eyes and ears inform them of reality. Equally admirable is their courage in coming on this board to stare down the jackals and vipers with the plain and unvarnished truth. Bravo to them. This is a very encouraging sign for the future.

The one disappointment in this thread is the apologetic tone some posters have used for not mouthing the party line. They have nothing to apologize for. Apologies should be coming from those who showered praise on a miserable, ugly, tuneless body of work, thereby sending our musical theatre down the drain.


Updated On: 3/23/15 at 09:54 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:54pm

Rodgers did music while Sondheim did lyrics as well. This alone shows why he is in a different category.

[Fantod]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:55pm

Rodgers wrote lyrics for Androcles and the Lion as well as No Strings.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 9:57pm

"And as a lyricist there is no dispute as to his genius."

Uh, did you even bother reading the article that prompted this thread? Or the posts in it?

[Musical Master]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:04pm

After Eight. You just hit a new low, at this point I think insulting people who like Sondheim for his talents are idiots has gone too far.

Now, go sit in a corner somewhere and shut up.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:10pm

Musical Master,

Uh, it seems to me that the insults --- and worse --- are coming from those who are his most ardent devotees. They're the ones calling others idiots ---- and worse.

And of course, like you, they try to shut up all dissenters.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:11pm

Some people don't like Sondheim. That's fine.

Some people don't like musical theatre. That's okay, too.

What's not okay is expressing your dislike as an absolute with such orgasmic relish one would think you were fingerbanging yourself as you type. That's just tacky.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:14pm

Sondheim came of age during the 1940s when jazz dominated musical taste. To our lot, from the 1960s, jazz seems like a journey without a map to a town that doesn’t exist.

Another stupid statement from the article. He writes off a whole genre, so this man's opinion on one particular composer shouldn't be taken to heart.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:19pm

Seriously. In order to excel at Jazz and really be able to improvise the way the best musicians are capable of doing, a jazz musician must really know his music and the theory behind it. Saying it's a "journey without a map" shows some real ignorance.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:20pm

@philly et al-The only easily accessible metric (Spotify) suggests that you are technically correct about Memory vis-a-vis Send in the Clowns. However, the truth is that neither song is popular in any meaningful sense, so this is literally much ado about nothing. Neither song registers at a discernible level.

@after eight-The reason people have no problem coming forward with negatives about Sondheim is that people have different taste. The etiology of your attributing Sondheim's popularity to "indoctrination" is manifest and sad, and it is unfortunate: people like what they like because they like it, not because they have been programmed in a manner that does not align with your (apparently pathological) contrarian preferences. It is also pretty obvious (confirmed by all the nasty things people say about you here) that you enjoy the posture you have adopted here, and playing the role you have assigned yourself like the clown that you are. There are happy clowns (e.g., Pinto) and there are sad clowns. You might ruminate on what it is that prompts you to be the latter. It's not pretty.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 10:24pm

The article is entitled "The Heckler."

A heckler is a troll, desperate for attention but not confident enough in their own facilities to create something of their own to share with the world, so they resort to sitting in the shadows shouting down what other, braver souls have put forth. A heckler is a troll. A heckler is a rude, dishonorable, distasteful whore. A heckler is hardly a thing to aspire to, or respond to, or take even the slightest bit seriously.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 11:08pm

AfterEight makes it sound like voicing distaste for Sondheim's music and/or lyrics is the equivalent of rising up against a dictator's brutal regime. AfterEight also literally thinks there's a cabal of "bad guys" engineering the demise of Broadway through musicals about things he finds depressing and mean. AfterEight is either a massive, incredibly dedicated troll or needs to get back on their medications because boy howdy is that some paranoid-schizophrenic stuff going on there.

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 11:52pm

lol wow a lot happens on these boards when i leave!
HogansHero, what exactly do you mean by "happy clown?"

"F*ck you, Phillypinto. That comes from the bottom of my heart."
woah wtf? what did I do icecreambenjamin for you to feel that way???

"Everyone is entitled to have--and express--differing opinions. That's what makes the board interesting. But when people try to turn their opinions into fact, it invites disputation."

i wasn't turning any opinion into fact. I love Send in the Clowns. It actually happens to be my 5th fav Sondheim song after Being Alive, Im still here, losing my mind, and ladies who lunch. I just don't really think its THAT popular.

And yeah, if you look at music downloads and such, songs like "All that Jazz," "Memory" "and Im telling you" are popular theatre songs that have held up better in terms of popularity. That is the truth

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 11:52 PM

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:00am

btw, in the last revival recording on Little Night Music, why is there so much speaking for the first 2 minutes of Send in the Clowns?? How annoying!! Im listening to it now...so pretty

Updated On: 3/23/15 at 12:00 AM