The Heckler: Why I'm allergic to Stephen Sondheim- Page 2

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 11:23am

Compare Sondheim to dining.

Sondheim is like dining at a fine restaurant.You may not like or understand some things on the menu. On the whole, you are glad you came as you enjoyed your meal. Other composers are like the Olive Garden.Some are somewhere in between.

With Sondheim, you have to carefully study the menu and think about wine. With others, burgers and fries and a coke.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 11:53am

^^^ That's pretty good, I have to say.

Although I am sure this will make Rox reply with my name in all caps.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 11:53am

The problem with the dining analogy is that some people don't like fish, no matter how much I do, so telling them that Le Bernardin is the best restaurant in New York doesn't alter the fact that they are not going to enjoy it.

Or maybe the analogy works after all, and the problem is with your use of it...

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 12:04pm

Seriously speaking, for a minute, as someone who was raised on R&H, L&L, and shows from the so-called "Golden Age", I was never a fan of Sondheim until relatively recently, when I had reason to study "A Little Night Music." This prompted me to study Sondheim in a bit more depth, and it also began to force me to listen to lyrics more than I had previously. As he says in "Finishing the Hat", there are people who listen to music differently. Some just let it wash over them (gloriously at times), and some are more apt to listen to lyric details. I had been one of the former, but I've tried to become more of the latter.

Sondheim is for many people an acquired taste, appreciation of his genius takes time to develop. Hey, when I was much younger, I couldn't stand the taste of scotch, now single malt is my drink of choice.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 12:18pm

Maybe people do not like broccoli either

I was just drawing an analogy. If one wanted psychoanalysis, they would see a shrink. Analogy was what I was aiming for - not the latter.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 12:44pm

I like how he uses examples from the follies section of Follies, and then claims Sondheim's lyrics are pretentious and obscure, as if follies-era musical numbers weren't.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 12:50pm

Roxy,

Since when does it require psychoanalysis to identify shoddy reasoning? Your use of the analogy was flawed.

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:01pm

If you ask Joe Average to imitate what he thinks is "musical" on the spot, it looks like something straight out of a Sondheim show. I wouldn't compare that to fine dining. When I go to a star restaurant, I experience an appreciation for the fine quality, that appreciation can be translated to shows like Miss Saigon, where every lyric and tone and intention goes somewhere. It's true that most people think they don't like musicals, but I feel that they would if there were more sung-through shows like Miss Saigon, which are very straight forward in style and emotion and without the fuss, unnecessary lyrics,too many repetitions and strange rhymes and farfetched melodies.

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 02:01 PM

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:02pm

lol

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:08pm

Dave19 once argued that Glee is too layered and complex for most people to fully appreciate.

Also, considering Joe Average has most likely not seen a Sondheim musical, I doubt something like that is what would spring to mind when asked about musical theatre.

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 02:08 PM

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:18pm

Exactly. Glee has actually saved lives, according to the tons of mail the executive producers received. Because of the subjects and the way they handled them in the show. I wouldn't negate that if I were you. And that is a whole different story that goes far beyond just "appreciation" of a style, which is what we are discussing here.

"Also, considering Joe Average has most likely not seen a Sondheim musical, I doubt something like that is what would spring to mind when asked about musical theatre."

And yet, both things look and sound exactly alike.


Updated On: 3/22/15 at 02:18 PM

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:28pm

Dave19
Are you saying that Miss Saigon has better music than anything Sondheim has ever written?

[Consistency]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:29pm

Yeah, Sondheim isn't even on the radar of most people who hate musicals.

Ask someone who hates musicals, and they're MUCH more likely to bring up a traumatic childhood viewing of "The Sound of Music" or "My Fair Lady" or "West Side Story" than "Pacific Overtures" or "Sweeney Todd." They associate musicals with "corny" stories of singing nuns and dancing gangsters, not murderous barbers. And the fact is, no matter the subject matter, some people simply can't handle characters bursting out into song - it's just not realistic, you know (as opposed, of course, to the utter realism of your average action film or romance that many of those same individuals will be quick to declare "totally awesome.")

Also, while everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm kind of baffled by someone who complains about repetitiveness and declares "most" of Sondheim's lyrics "unnecessary" while holding up "Miss Saigon" (a show I quite like) as an example of purposeful songwriting. Without denigrating Boublil and Maltby, I'll just say that I can think of few other lyricists who are able to pack so much meaning and purpose into each line as Sondheim.







Updated On: 3/22/15 at 02:29 PM

[The Glenbuck Laird]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:34pm

Mr Roxy steals the thread, again.

Not a musicals fan though me, which is Sondheim's best work?

And has he ever written a world class song? Not joining After Eight yet, just don't know his work

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:37pm

If you're new to Sondheim, Sweeney Todd is a good start.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:40pm

"farfetched melodies" is a nonsense phrase.

[artscallion]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:43pm

"And has he ever written a world class song?"

"Send in the Clowns"

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:47pm

Being Alive is probably the closest thing he has to being a "world class song," but honestly, none of his songs are even close to being as famous as songs like "Memory" or "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" or songs from Dreamgirls and Hair.

His lyrics however are in West Side Story which everyone knows. Also, he wrote the lyrics to Gypsy which has the song "Together Wherever We Go" which is pretty popular also

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 02:47 PM

[oncemorewithfeeling2]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:58pm

I think Send in the Clowns is as famous as ...Argentina, Memory, and other songs you named. It's been covered by artists ranging from Cher to Placido Domingo to Peter Criss to Krusty the Klown. It was in the Billboard Hot 100 on 2 separate occasions. It won the Grammy for song of the year.

I'd argue it's more well known to the general public then many ALW songs.
The Wiki history of Send in the Clowns

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 2:58pm

I think "Send in the Clowns" is probably Sondheim's most well-known song. Many people think of it as a stand alone and don't know what show or in what context that song is sung.

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 3:03pm

"farfetched melodies" is a nonsense phrase."

You may be right. Most Sondheim melodies are actually extremely simple, but they very often seem to avoid the heart of what the lyrics are trying to say. That's actually where Sondheim always loses me. Too simple, distracting, uninteresting melodies combined with farfetched lyrics.

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 03:03 PM

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 3:06pm

I think Sondheim generally has simple melodies so that the words really shine. I think he's said something before about having minimal music so that the music and lyrics are equal. I personally enjoy his lyrics more than his music.

And yea, you're right, many people have covered Send in the Clowns, and many many many more people have covered Memory

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 03:06 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 3:07pm

""Also, considering Joe Average has most likely not seen a Sondheim musical, I doubt something like that is what would spring to mind when asked about musical theatre."

And yet, both things look and sound exactly alike."

So you've done a survey?

Did you do in the same place you once claimed BD Wong was more recognizable than Hugh Jackman?

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 3:08pm

This is partially off-topic, but I've never understood the fuss over Don't Cry For Me Argentina. It's not even the best song from Evita (which I otherwise adore). Of course, I'm also not a big fan of Send in the Clowns.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 3:14pm

If you think that Sondheim has simple melodies, you have clearly never attempted to sing one. Any singer can tell you that they are difficult songs to sing. Not necessarily because of range but due to the complicated intervals and rhythm.