Tootsie controversy - Page 4

[artscallion]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 3:07pm

SweetLips22 said: "'I'm not gay but $20. is $20.'"

Put THAT on a t-shirt and I'll buy it!

[devonian.t]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 3:51pm

Are we at last reaching the point where we don't have to be preached at any longer?

I'll have one of those $20 t-shirts too

[goldenboy]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 5:35pm

And this is why some lunkhead decided to re write Kiss Me Kate not to offend anyone. And take what was once a classic into a dull abortion of a revival. 

We all need to get a little LESS sensitive and not pick everything apart. Geesh... there will be no comedy left cause someone will feel offended.

When you take a show about the battle of the sexes and take the SEX out if not to offend people, the world is in trouble.

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 6:10pm

Well said, Fredrich.  

Usually it's those who are living within a world that is questioned or defended or whatever who have the greatest insight.  You're living as a transgendered person, so you know when you see something that is offensive.  And you know when something is not offensive.  You look at it from a very rational and insightful perspective.

We live in a world now where some people are just looking to be offended by others.  Or on the other hand they're looking to progressively defend someone who they think is being offended by a comment or action.  

When sometimes there is nothing of the sort going on, or intended.

As a gay man, I will see someone make accusations of homophobia over something that has nothing to do with homophobia when you look at the facts of the situation at hand. My straight friends will find it interesting when I point these situations out.  I guess they assume as a gay man I will always be there to defend gays at every turn.  But there really is nothing interesting about it.  It's what it is.

It isn't unlike calling someone a racist just because they question someone who is not of the same skin color as they are.  Especially in the political realm.   In that case,  it usually just has to do with political philosophy.  A person who might not like our former president, might very well like Ben Carson, or Condi Rice, or whoever.  Because of their politics. 

Sadly there is racism out there.  There is homophobia.  There is transphobia.  There is sexism. 

But if you make the accusations at every turn, even when it is not valid, it just hurts the cause of those who really are victims of it.  It becomes like the boy who cried wolf.  People get tired of the misfires and they don't listen anymore.  When they should be...because it really is happening.

[SFFrontRow]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 10:14pm

Mister Matt said: 
"Friend of Dorothy" I actually think is kind of cute - I feel like I'm missing what's problematic, but am willing to be convinced otherwise

Not sure I have seen this mentioned in this message... "Friend of Dorothy" used to be code for "I am gay" or in a question to subtly ask of another was gay. So, it seems to be a clever play on words using old gay terminology (?). I cannot imagine this would be controversial as a anti-gay sentiment (and I will say it again, I am gay).

[massofmen]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 11:02pm

Ya'll need to be careful. If everything becomes offensive then nothing is allowed. 

[FlyHigh523]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 11:08pm

Everyone needs to stop being so offended over everything. Not everything is supposed to be a “conversation”, and Tootsie doesn’t set out to offend people. Did it age well? No. Is it transphobic? No. There’s a difference. These little Gen Z kids need to chill out. The stuff I’ve seen on social media, bashing Santino, is in extremely poor taste. Doesn’t getting offended over everything get tiring after a while?

[Pose2]

Posted: 6/10/19 at 11:14pm

FlyHigh, I wonder that as well. These kids spend their entire day mad and offended by everything, and they put all their feelings and emotions on social media. If they are offended by it, they think no one else should get to experience it. Everyone gets a platform, and it's so obnoxious. Do they ever experience joy or happiness?

To all Gen Z offended by everything, please answer this question, thank you!

[InTheBathroom1]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:11am

I implore all of you to read this article written by a non-cis theatre critic to better understand why this show is damaging and offensive to many trans people.

https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/05/07/the-gender-problem-tootsie-cant-dress-up/

[cougarnewtin]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:14am

Pose2 said: "FlyHigh, I wonder that as well. These kids spend their entire day mad and offended by everything, and they put all their feelings and emotions on social media. If they are offended by it, they think no one else should get to experience it. Everyone gets a platform, and it's so obnoxious. Do they ever experience joy or happiness?

To all Gen Zoffended by everything, please answer this question, thank you!"

Hi! Gen Z here. Happy to answer your question!

Before I do, thought, I just want to ask: Why is it such a problem that everyone gets a platform? How is that obnoxious? If you want me to answer one of your questions, I'd like you to answer one of mine: Why do you have a problem with this? Shouldn't everyone have an equal chance to speak out? And also, what do you have against people talking about how offended they are in social media posts? Isn't that just what you're doing with this post? Talking about how mad you are?

Secondly, yes, we are happy, a lot of the time actually, because we know how to listen to the complaints and grievances of others, and we strive to fix them and speak up against them. Do some people occasionally take this a step too far? Yes! But this shouldn't be used to immediately dismiss the concerns of any person offended by anything ever. There are legitimate concerns that many people, particularly trans people, have with Tootsie. Personally? I don't think Tootsie is terrible, and I think everyone involved tries their hardest to modernize and make Tootsie as progressive as possible, but the truth is that they can't escape a premise that, while not outwardly malicious, carries certain transphobic and sexist connotations. A more detailed article about this can be found here: https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/05/07/the-gender-problem-tootsie-cant-dress-up/

Hope that answers your question! And next time, actually try to listen to someone without immediately dismissing their concerns as illegitimate! It might take a little more brain power on your part, but it makes all the difference!

 

 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:16am

Last month I rushed Tootsie. I ended up there because there weren’t enough Hadestown tickets, and I was curious about what people had been calling one of the funniest books on Broadway. I would’ve chosen Ain’t Too Proud, but they don’t have weekend rush and I wasn’t about to miss work to rush during the week.

After I explained how I felt about the show, I got attacked. Everyone came out of the woodwork calling me transphobic, it blew up. I considered doing bad things to myself. I lost a friend who I had defended against something, who I made sure was okay after they had something absolutely terrible happen to them. They said absolutely nothing. People have absolutely no idea how much pain their words caused me. And what’s worse—they didn’t care. They were looking for someone to get mad at and someone to attack. I didn’t write the show. I’m not telling people to see it. I said it was funny. That’s all. And I got absolutely slammed, more than anyone else I’d seen on social media over this show.

And now I’m hearing Santino is being attacked? Absolutely not okay. I’m curious that people think it’s okay to insinuate violence against an actor and their family. You can dislike a show obviously, but that is WAY crossing the line.

[msmp]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:30am

magictodo123 said: "Last month I rushed Tootsie. I ended up there because there weren’t enough Hadestown tickets, and I was curious about what people had been calling one of the funniest books on Broadway. I would’ve chosen Ain’t Too Proud, but they don’t have weekend rush and I wasn’t about to miss work to rush during the week.

After I explained how I felt about the show, I got attacked. Everyone came out of the woodwork calling me transphobic, it blew up. I considered doing bad things to myself. I lost a friend who I had defended against something, who I made sure was okay after they had something absolutely terrible happen to them. They said absolutely nothing. People have absolutely no idea how much pain their words caused me. And what’s worse—they didn’t care. They were looking for someone to get mad at and someone to attack. I didn’t write the show. I’m not telling people to see it. I said it was funny. That’s all. And I got absolutely slammed, more than anyone else I’d seen on social media over this show.

And now I’m hearing Santino is being attacked? Absolutely not okay. I’m curious that people think it’s okay to insinuate violence against an actor and their family. You can dislike a show obviously, but that is WAY crossing the line."

I'm going to see it because I love Santino as an actor and I want to see him in a Tony-winning role, but I would be lying if I said this didn't concern me the same way. I have a lot of good friends who bought into the hate hype and who are normally a lot smarter than that. Hoping their reactions will be muted but we'll see.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:33am

Throughout history, art has offended people. Comedy, even musical comedy, can be offensive. So while I have nothing to add to the conversation, I think we can put that argument to rest. Art can be offensive and we have the right to point it out.

[goldenboy]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:38am

See Toosie cause it's funny and the performances rock across the board.

Cross dressing in plays goes all the way back to the Greeks and Shakespeare. It is nothing new. It is not offensive. It is one of the essential elements of farce. This is theatre history 101!

See Tootsie for Santino and Sarah Styles and Andrew G. Okay the score stinks but the book and lyrics are very funny! Have a good time and don't take comedy personally!

[woeisme3]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:51am

I’m a black and gay member of Gen Z who saw the show again tonight and loved it. I think everyone having a platform, like almost anything in the world has its ups and downs. It’s allowed lots of shows to build strong communities with their fans which is a good thing, but it can also start witch hunts like what happened with this show.

I completely understand why people had serious reservations about this show based on the plot, which has potential to be horrible with a bad adaptation. But this is a good adaptation, and I think a lot of the comedy is in the nuance of the story. You’re never really supposed to be on Michael’s side regarding his decision, and the show doesn’t give him a fairytale ending or anything. A lot of the discourse doesn’t separate character from views of the shows. It’s like hating Sweeney or Gypsy because the main characters do bad things- counterintuitive.

I also think the “man beats women to the top of their field” thing sounds worse out of context than it really is. Michael is always presented as a good actor, and it’s his terrible attitude that stops him from getting parts. Michael is difficult. Dorothy isn’t. Dorothy’s conflict with Ron is a major part of the plot too, and it’s only through Rita and Julie that he gets the part/gets parts of the show changed.

I think a lot of the hate comes from “broadway stan Twitter” which is kind of a new thing. The truth is many of these people are young and don’t see many or any of the shows in a season. It’s easy to hate on something you haven’t seen, and even easier when it’s semi anonymously over Twitter. I think if you’ve seen the show and think it’s offensive that’s fine as it’s an informed opinion but those who haven’t are a vocal minority .

[magictodo123]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 12:53am

woeisme3 said: "I’m a black and gay member of Gen Z who saw the show again tonight and loved it. I think everyone having a platform, like almost anything in the world has its ups and downs. It’s allowed lots of shows to build strong communities with their fans which is a good thing, but it can also start witch hunts like what happened with this show.

I completely understand why people had serious reservations about this show based on the plot, which has potential to be horrible with a bad adaptation. But this is a good adaptation, and I think a lot of the comedy is in the nuance of the story. You’re never really supposed to be on Michael’s side regarding his decision, and the show doesn’t give him a fairytale ending or anything. A lot of the discourse doesn’t separate character from views of the shows. It’s like hating Sweeney or Gypsy because the main characters do bad things- counterintuitive.

I also think the “man beats women to the top of their field” thing sounds worse out of context than it really is. Michael is always presented as a good actor, and it’s his terrible attitude that stops him from getting parts. Michael is difficult. Dorothy isn’t. Dorothy’s conflict with Ron is a major part of the plot too, and it’s only through Rita and Julie that he gets the part/gets parts of the show changed.

I think a lot of the hate comes from “broadway stan Twitter” which is kind of a new thing. The truth is many of these people are young and don’t see many or any of the shows in a season. It’s easy to hate on something you haven’t seen, and even easier when it’s semi anonymously over Twitter. I think if you’ve seen the show and think it’s offensive that’s fine as it’s an informed opinion but those who haven’t are a vocal minority ."

Is it just me or is stan twitter also one of the most toxic things? 

[Pose2]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 1:11am

Thank you Gen Z for completely and utterly confirming everything I thought about you. Enjoy being miserable and threatening people on social media because they thought something was funny. Enjoy being poorer than any other generation before you. And No, Bernie can't save you with his free college and medical care. Learn about taxes if you have the time in between being offended and bitching about things like art. Thank you.

After I explained how I felt about the show, I got attacked. Everyone came out of the woodwork calling me transphobic, it blew up. I considered doing bad things to myself. I lost a friend who I had defended against something, who I made sure was okay after they had something absolutely terrible happen to them. They said absolutely nothing. People have absolutely no idea how much pain their words caused me. And what’s worse—they didn’t care. They were looking for someone to get mad at and someone to attack. I didn’t write the show. I’m not telling people to see it. I said it was funny. That’s all. And I got absolutely slammed, more than anyone else I’d seen on social media over this show. 
 

I am so incredibly sorry, you did not deserve that. Tootsie is not trans phobic in any way. I have seen it 4 times and have attended with a member of the LGBTQIA community each time and they all loved it.  Granted, we are all over 30, thank GOD.

[Pose2]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 1:18am

And now I’m hearing Santino is being attacked? Absolutely not okay. I’m curious that people think it’s okay to insinuate violence against an actor and their family. You can dislike a show obviously, but that is WAY crossing the line.

Some anonymous troll without a profile picture tweeted at Santino that "he sucks and hopes his wife has a miscarriage."  I am officially done with people hating on this show and calling it intolerant and transphobic when they are quite literally threatening the cast and wishing death upon them. Nope. 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 1:34am

Pose2 said: "Thank you Gen Z for completely and utterly confirming everything I thought about you. Enjoy being miserable and threatening people on social media because they thought something was funny. Enjoy being poorer than any other generation before you. And No, Bernie can't save you with his free college and medical care. Learn about taxes if you have the time in between being offended and bitching about things like art. Thank you.

After I explained how I felt about the show, I got attacked. Everyone came out of the woodwork calling me transphobic, it blew up. I considered doing bad things to myself. I lost a friend who I had defended against something, who I made sure was okay after they had something absolutely terrible happen to them. They said absolutely nothing. People have absolutely no idea how much pain their words caused me. And what’s worse—they didn’t care. They were looking for someone to get mad at and someone to attack. I didn’t write the show. I’m not telling people to see it. I said it was funny. That’s all. And I got absolutely slammed, more than anyone else I’d seen on social media over this show.


I am so incredibly sorry, you did not deserve that. Tootsie is not trans phobic in any way. I have seen it 4 times and have attended with a member of the LGBTQIA community each time and they all loved it. Granted, we are all over 30, thank GOD."

They were calling me transphobic for seeing the show. I couldn’t focus at work because of how bad it got. These Stan twitter people don’t understand how their words HURT.

 

Pose2....I had heard they said something but that’s what they said???? I’m absolutely FURIOUS. Holy cow. I think I officially support Santino, the show not so much, and honestly? This is a really bad way to represent a community!! They’re not really helping their case by saying these awful things are they?  

[DiscoCrows]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 1:50am

Saw the show tonight, the energy was through the roof. Santino got a one-minute long applause after the Tony-award line.

As far as transphobia goes... people are overblowing this. If you walk into this show ready to get offended, then you’ll get offended. It’s definitely uncomfortable here and there, but it’s pretty well established that is part of what gives the show the moral compass it has. It’s satirical and shouldn’t be taken any more seriously than the plethora of homophobic jokes in The Book of Mormon.

People act like this show uses transgender people as a scapegoat for senseless comedy- which it doesn’t...It’s not as though Michael Dorsey principally says he is transgender in order to get a role. Sure, maybe it even has a few sexist or even transphobic *connotations*; but by those standards, so does Mean Girls?... I just don’t get it?

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 2:23am

Has everyone read the article from American Theatre linked above? If anyone is unsure of how someone can find the show offensive, that’s a very good essay laying out the specifics. It’s written by a queer person who has seen the show.

I have trans friends and cis female friends who very much take offense to the show. I think it’s important to at least hear the argument before being so flippant.

Last year, the Muny used yellowface in their production of Jerome Robbins’ Broadway, and while the show was protested, the show went on. People said, they’re just reenacting classic numbers and that’s how it was traditionally done. That still doesn’t make it any less offensive, and in 2018, it should have been handled better because we know better. Imagine if it were blackface instead of yellowface and how immediately offensive we would think it is.

Gender in 2019 isn’t what gender is in the world of Tootsie, which already makes the show dated. (Head Over Heels dealt with the nuance of gender brilliantly.) And while things are fast changing, it does take time for people to catch up. And so I think it’s important not to be dismissive so quickly.

[msmp]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 3:19am

magictodo123 said: "Pose2 said: "Thank you Gen Z for completely and utterly confirming everything I thought about you. Enjoy being miserable and threatening people on social media because they thought something was funny. Enjoy being poorer than any other generation before you. And No, Bernie can't save you with his free college and medical care. Learn about taxes if you have the time in between being offended and bitching about things like art. Thank you.

After I explained how I felt about the show, I got attacked. Everyone came out of the woodwork calling me transphobic, it blew up. I considered doing bad things to myself. I lost a friend who I had defended against something, who I made sure was okay after they had something absolutely terrible happen to them. They said absolutely nothing. People have absolutely no idea how much pain their words caused me. And what’s worse—they didn’t care. They were looking for someone to get mad at and someone to attack. I didn’t write the show. I’m not telling people to see it. I said it was funny. That’s all. And I got absolutely slammed, more than anyone else I’d seen on social media over this show.


I am so incredibly sorry, you did not deserve that. Tootsie is not trans phobic in any way. I have seen it 4 times and have attended with a member of the LGBTQIA community each time and they all loved it. Granted, we are all over 30, thank GOD."

They were calling me transphobic for seeing the show. I couldn’t focus at work because of how bad it got. These Stan twitter people don’t understand how their words HURT.



Pose2....I had heard they said something but that’s what they said???? I’m absolutely FURIOUS. Holy cow. I think I officially support Santino, the show not so much, and honestly? This is a really bad way to represent a community!! They’re not really helping their case by saying these awful things are they?"

The Tonys Instagram is full of it, though I saw more "Alex Brightman was robbed" posts than outright hatred towards Santino as it got later on into Monday morning. But there sure was a lot of hatred directed towards him and, even worse, towards his wife Jessica who has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the show other than being his wife.

People (and by that I mean the very young people who comprise "stan twitter" ) need to do a much better job of separating an actor from their body of work, especially when there's no evidence whatsoever the actor/actress holds any kind of problematic views outside a role that (as numerous posters have said) is not intended to be all that sympathetic.
 

Updated On: 6/11/19 at 03:19 AM

[msmp]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 3:27am

Pose2 said: "And now I’m hearing Santino is being attacked? Absolutely not okay. I’m curious that people think it’s okay to insinuate violence against an actor and their family. You can dislike a show obviously, but that is WAY crossing the line.

Some anonymous troll without a profile picture tweeted at Santino that"he sucks andhopes his wife has a miscarriage." I am officially done with people hating on this show and calling it intolerant and transphobic when they are quite literally threatening the castand wishing death upon them. Nope."

I can't find the tweet again but I remember seeing this as well.

[binau]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 4:03am

Sounds SO unlike the peaceful loving left to call for violence, right? Anyway, I haven't decided whether we should be offended or not - I'm leaning towards I can see why someone might be offended but they probably don't need to be. However, if this show was about a straight man that pretended to be gay to win work would we find that funny or be offended and claim it's homophobic? I suspect many would take an issue with it (others might just call it porn). 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 5:24am

And the thing that gets my the most is that these people support Mrs. Doubtfire. I’ve read some takes that finds what he does extremely weird. He lies to his kids, one of his kids sees him going to the bathroom (scarring much?). You can say he “does it out of love” all you want, it doesn’t mean it’s odd that you have such a strong reaction to one show and not another prospective show. **


**This is only to the people on stan twitter who talk about both and support Mrs. Doubtfire