Tootsie controversy — Page 6

InTheBathroom1 said: "But actual trans people have seen the show and been offended by it and if you don’t want to listen to their concerns, you’re part of the problem. L thanks bye."

This bugs me. Trans people, like everyone else, have every right to be "offended" by something, but that doesnt mean something is thereby offensive. And if someone says "this offends me" but then offers inadequate reasons/explanations for the offense, then that doesnt mean I havent listened to their concerns. It means I disagree with their opinion and have moved on with my life. There is something disturbingly modern about being offended by others' disagreement with your reasons for being offended in the first place.

I found Tootsie problematic in the sense that the underlying premise didnt make any sense (the world falls into place as soon as he puts on a dress and heels- on what planet?) and I am ALL EARS for how its somehow transphobic. No one has made that case here or anywhere else that I am aware of.

So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they are trying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day, it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to be a lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive casting and good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe. When I talked to my friends about the show, the verdict basically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deception portrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective.


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind its criticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masquerades as a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered. The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization.

Updated On: 6/12/19 at 02:02 AM

ChairinMain said: "So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they aretrying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day,it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to bea lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive castingand good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe.When I talked to my friendsabout the show, the verdictbasically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deceptionportrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective.


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind itscriticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masqueradesas a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered.The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization.
"

Thank you for taking the time to write this. This really clarified for me what the problem is from the trans community pov in ways I suggest others tried to explain.

Gives me something to think about.

ChairinMain said: "So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they aretrying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day,it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to bea lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive castingand good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe.When I talked to my friendsabout the show, the verdictbasically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deceptionportrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective.


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind itscriticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masqueradesas a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered.The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization.
"

Echoing the above poster to say thank you for this post; it helped give me a little more context. One thing I'd add, because it relates back to other things I've chimed in on in this thread, is that ironically "stan twitter" absolutely loves "Head Over Heels" as a rule. So to hear that trans people (even a small sample size!) had objections to that production makes me think this isn't a Tootsie-only "problem" but that theatre still doesn't know how to engage with these issues. And that's okay, in my mind; theatre can't improve unless people take risks and put things out there.

I'm still looking forward to the show, and I'm glad that even people who do understand the objectors' perspective still found the overall message to be a positive one and not on the same wavelength as the op-ed that started a lot of the chattering on twitter.

MollyJeanneMusic said: "Quick reminder with all of this - please dont draw the cast into this. Other than maybe a few of the cast members, a lot of them are just trying to hold down a job for a bit. In the words of Hadestown, You can talk of principles when youve got a belly full."

ALSO do NOT make threats to the actors!! Do not bring their families into this-people are making threats to Santino's pregnant wife!! I think I saw somewhere, or someone told me that someone somewhere wrote that they hope she MISCARRIES??? Are people serious???? That is absolutely, 100% unacceptable. Completely crossing a line.

Thank you for that post, ChairInMan.

My struggle to understand the outrage here (and most of it is coming from people who have not seen the show, but have read things like that misleading American Theater essay) is that stories like Tootsie (or Head Over Heels, Mrs. Doubtfire, Charley's Aunt, etc etc) all make it very clear that the main, cisgender male character is assuming an alternate identity- a disguise- that happens by way of plot contrivance to be a woman. None of them feature a main character that says "I am still Main Character Name, but now I identify as a woman" as a way to deceive people- that would be unarguably transphobic. And there seems to be general acceptance of this well-worn comedic trope when it is a woman donning a male disguise, as in plays like Twelfth Night or As You Like It.

I know trans women struggle with people who believe there's no such thing as trans folk and they are just dishonest men in dresses. But something like Tootsie isn't arguing that, and isn't arguing that is is wrong or dishonest for someone to present as another gender or cross dress.

Updated On: 6/12/19 at 10:24 AM

I haven't seen much discussion over Tootsie that I would actually label "controversy" besides the tone-deaf merch (which, again, would look VERY weird out of context), but the show does flirt with and dabble in a number of "ha ha, man in dress!" jokes which, no matter how garbage of a person Michael is meant to be, are still from a toxic comedy vein. The subplot of the Romeo actor being confused by his attraction to her is basically a prolonged trap joke and, at least for me, felt like the show's worst side.

Also, what Tootsie is arguing is only part of the equation - what a piece of media is saying and what a piece of media says can and often are two different things, and there's nothing invalid about examining that gap. Tootsie's man-in-dress jokes coming about due to a plot contrivance doesn't mean that the man-in-dress jokes are cleansed of any potential misguidance, since they're still being written in a wider cultural context - the show is not an island.

I should note that Tootsie is by far my favorite musical of the season, so this isn't me being an anti-Tootsie stan or anything like that.

Updated On: 6/12/19 at 10:59 AM

^I don't think it IS transphobic, at all, but I understand better those that are triggered by it. (Again, based on ChairinMain's post.)

I don't think the show itself is at all trans-phobic. But I think transphobic people will mistakenly see it as affirming their trans-phobic views (straight men dressing up as women to gain access to women's bathrooms.) In my opinion, to buy into, or even argue that notion only lends credibility to the transphobs' misguided fear/hate by acknowledging it.

In my opinion, it would be wise to ignore the controversy. It's not right to direct blame at the show, when the show is clearly not promoting transphobia. Direct blame at the transphobics who erroneously use the show as fodder for their agenda. (Have we even seen that happening?)

Charley Kringas Inc said: "I haven't seen much discussion over Tootsie that I would actually label "controversy" besides the tone-deaf merch (which, again, would look VERY weird out of context), but the show does flirt with and dabble in a number of "ha ha, man in dress!" jokes which, no matter how garbage of a person Michael is meant to be, are still from a toxic comedy vein. Thesubplot of the Romeo actor being confused by his attraction to her is basically a prolonged trap jokeand, at least for me, felt like the show's worst side.

Also, what Tootsie is arguing is only part of the equation- what a piece of media is saying and what a piece of media says can and often are two different things, and there's nothing invalid about examining that gap. Tootsie's man-in-dress jokes coming about due to a plot contrivance doesn't mean that the man-in-dress jokes are cleansed of any potential misguidance, since they're still being written in a wider cultural context - the show is not an island.

I should note that Tootsie is by far my favorite musical of the season, so this isn't me being an anti-Tootsie stan or anything like that."

Who is the arbiter of what a toxic comedy vein is? There's nothing toxic about the comedy in Tootsie. It is telling the story it wishes to tell - it veers from the film in ways I don't think work so well, but it's a musical not a treatise or pamphlet. Everyone is triggered by something, folks. That is their issue because once you start down the road of trying to smooth everything out for every single person in the world who might be triggered you end up with pablum. And that seems fine to some people.

As I said, is Some Like it Hot now a "toxic comedy"? Two guys in drag are running from the mob. This is getting ridiculous.

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Not sure what a 60-year-old movie has to do with this. Care to elaborate?"

It's a popular movie about two guys who dress up as women because, reasons. The two guys do not ever consider themselves women, they dress up as women. One ends up wooing a hot girl (Marilyn Monroe). The other one (as a woman) ends up landing a rich dude. The whole thing is played for COMEDY, which is so transphobic because it, you know, doesn't acknowledge the PAIN of trans/cis people as they start to wear different clothes or get a different look. If it was adapted as a musical (which it might be), it would be transphobic. Because guys becoming girls for reasons other than identity changes is so INSENSITIVE.

Seriously. That's where we are with Tootsie. A popular but somewhat dated movie was adapted to Broadway and it's now transphobic.