Tootsie controversy - Page 6

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/11/19 at 8:03pm

InTheBathroom1 said: "But actual trans people have seen the show and been offended by it and if you don’t want to listen to their concerns, you’re part of the problem."

I'm safe then. I listened to their concerns... I just don't agree with their conclusions. Not to mention, there is no such thing as the concerns of actual trans people. They aren't a monolith. A handful of people saw it and wrote about it... what % are they of the trans people who saw the show? How many went to see it after hearing it was problematic? If you look for that subtext, it could be there... but you could have brought it in with you, as well...

 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 12:44am

InTheBathroom1 said: "But actual trans people have seen the show and been offended by it and if you don’t want to listen to their concerns, you’re part of the problem. L thanks bye."

This bugs me. Trans people, like everyone else, have every right to be "offended" by something, but that doesnt mean something is thereby offensive. And if someone says "this offends me" but then offers inadequate reasons/explanations for the offense, then that doesnt mean I havent listened to their concerns. It means I disagree with their opinion and have moved on with my life. There is something disturbingly modern about being offended by others' disagreement with your reasons for being offended in the first place.

I found Tootsie problematic in the sense that the underlying premise didnt make any sense (the world falls into place as soon as he puts on a dress and heels- on what planet?) and I am ALL EARS for how its somehow transphobic. No one has made that case here or anywhere else that I am aware of. 

[blaxx]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 1:27am

This thread clearly shows the big issue with the double standards with supporting a minority:

- We are 100% with you!  You deserve to be included!  You deserve respect!  You deserve empathy!

- Oh, except for this. I don't get why you would be offended by this, so yeah...you are wrong because I don't see it. But everywhere else, I'm with you, gurl, for sure. 

[ChairinMain]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 2:02am

So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day  is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they are trying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day, it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to be a lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive casting and good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe. When I talked to my friends about the show, the verdict basically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am  not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deception portrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective. 


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind its criticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masquerades as a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered. The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization. 
 

Updated On: 6/12/19 at 02:02 AM

[bk]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 4:19am

InTheBathroom1 said: "Obviously there’s going to be no convincing anybody on here. But actual trans people have seen the show and been offended by it and if you don’t want to listen to their concerns, you’re part of the problem. L thanks bye."

There's no problem to be a part OF - THAT is the problem and if you don't want to listen to it, you're part of the non-problem problem,

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 5:28am

ChairinMain said: "So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they aretrying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day,it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to bea lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive castingand good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe.When I talked to my friendsabout the show, the verdictbasically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deceptionportrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective.


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind itscriticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masqueradesas a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered.The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization.
"

Thank you for taking the time to write this.  This really clarified for me what the problem is from the trans community pov in ways I suggest others tried to explain.

Gives me something to think about.

[magictodo123]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 5:49am

ChairinMain said: "So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they aretrying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day,it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to bea lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive castingand good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe.When I talked to my friendsabout the show, the verdictbasically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deceptionportrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective.


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind itscriticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masqueradesas a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered.The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization.
"

I understand this. And thank you for writing this and explaining. But this does not, under any circumstances justify the way people in a community treated me. That is a very poor representation of a community, IMHO. 

[msmp]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 5:51am

ChairinMain said: "So, the number one thing Trans people and trans women in particular have to fight every day is the absurd idea that transwomen are men. Since they're men, it must mean that they aretrying to gain access to women-only spaces like :sigh: bathrooms gasp pearl clutch won't someone think of the children. Oy. Anyway, because they have literally get accused of this kind of thing every day,it is REAL hard to make a story where a man pretends to bea lady for the purposes of wacky hyjinx and not trigger that response.

This was the case when several trans friends saw "Head Over Heels", which despite its' inclusive castingand good intentions still has a plot that centers around this troupe: It's made explicit that Musidorus can only gain access to his girlfriend by dressing up as a woman. It envokes (and I would argue deconstructs) this troupe.When I talked to my friendsabout the show, the verdictbasically boiled down to "nice try but not good enough, wish I had been warned about this element." (And to be clear I am not arguing that all trans people feel this way about Head Over Heels, just multiple people I know personally.) Musidorus's behavior is what trans women are frequently accused of: that they are not women, they are men who are lying about being women. Because they are accused of this, wrongfully and so so frequently, seeing this exact deceptionportrayed in media can be disheartening and troubling. Now I don't agree with my friends about Head Over Heels (especially because the show ends with Musidorus essentially coming out as genderfluid) but I do understand the perspective.


Tootsie absolutely uses this troupe and I absolutely understand, but again don't necessarily agree with, the rational behind itscriticism. Michael Dorsey is a man and he deceitfully masqueradesas a woman and that INSTANTLY puts the show into territory where some trans people may feel targeted or triggered.The merchandizing didn't help. I haven't seen the show so I can't speak to the specifics. But from the cast album it is REAL clear that the show consistently posits Michael as a self-inflated buffoon who is obviously and consistently WRONG in his behavior. Jeff spends the entire show pointing out that what he is doing is insane and morally abhorrent and at the end of the show the only gains he makes are through sacrifice and self-realization.
"

Echoing the above poster to say thank you for this post; it helped give me a little more context. One thing I'd add, because it relates back to other things I've chimed in on in this thread, is that ironically "stan twitter" absolutely loves "Head Over Heels" as a rule. So to hear that trans people (even a small sample size!) had objections to that production makes me think this isn't a Tootsie-only "problem" but that theatre still doesn't know how to engage with these issues. And that's okay, in my mind; theatre can't improve unless people take risks and put things out there.

I'm still looking forward to the show, and I'm glad that even people who do understand the objectors' perspective still found the overall message to be a positive one and not on the same wavelength as the op-ed that started a lot of the chattering on twitter.

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 7:27am

Quick reminder with all of this - please dont draw the cast into this. Other than maybe a few of the cast members, a lot of them are just trying to hold down a job for a bit. In the words of Hadestown, You can talk of principles when youve got a belly full.

[magictodo123]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 7:49am

MollyJeanneMusic said: "Quick reminder with all of this - please dont draw the cast into this. Other than maybe a few of the cast members, a lot of them are just trying to hold down a job for a bit. In the words of Hadestown, You can talk of principles when youve got a belly full."

ALSO do NOT make threats to the actors!! Do not bring their families into this-people are making threats to Santino's pregnant wife!! I think I saw somewhere, or someone told me that someone somewhere wrote that they hope she MISCARRIES??? Are people serious???? That is absolutely, 100% unacceptable. Completely crossing a line. 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 9:33am

magictodo123 said: "MollyJeanneMusic said: "Quick reminder with all of this - please dont draw the cast into this. Other than maybe a few of the cast members, a lot of them are just trying to hold down a job for a bit. In the words of Hadestown, You can talk of principles when youve got a belly full."

ALSO do NOT make threats to the actors!! Do not bring their families into this-people are making threats to Santino's pregnant wife!! I think I saw somewhere, or someone told me that someone somewhere wrote that they hope she MISCARRIES??? Are people serious???? That is absolutely, 100% unacceptable. Completely crossing a line."

Twitter is always going to amplify the craziest and most extreme voices. Anyone threatening anyone over this sorta removes themselves from the conversation. Cant take any of that seriously (unless the victim feels the need to get law enforcement involved). The extremist minority rarely moves the needle when it comes to social issues, and certainly wont do anything to Tootsie's box office. I'm way more interested in the genuine concerns over transphobia in the show and I dont quite see it- though I do appreciate the first thoughtful, introspective post up above which at least gives me something to think about.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:24am

Thank you for that post, ChairInMan. 

My struggle to understand the outrage here (and most of it is coming from people who have not seen the show, but have read things like that misleading American Theater essay) is that stories like Tootsie (or Head Over Heels, Mrs. Doubtfire, Charley's Aunt, etc etc) all make it very clear that the main, cisgender male character is assuming an alternate identity- a disguise- that happens by way of plot contrivance to be a woman.  None of them feature a main character that says "I am still Main Character Name, but now I identify as a woman" as a way to deceive people- that would be unarguably transphobic. And there seems to be general acceptance of this well-worn comedic trope when it is a woman donning a male disguise, as in plays like Twelfth Night or As You Like It. 

I know trans women struggle with people who believe there's no such thing as trans folk and they are just dishonest men in dresses. But something like Tootsie isn't arguing that, and isn't arguing that is is wrong or dishonest for someone to present as another gender or cross dress. 

 

Updated On: 6/12/19 at 10:24 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:48am

But actual trans people have seen the show and been offended by it and if you don’t want to listen to their concerns, you’re part of the problem. 

I responded because I listened.

 

This thread clearly shows the big issue with the double standards with supporting a minority:

- We are 100% with you!  You deserve to be included!  You deserve respect!  You deserve empathy!

- Oh, except for this. I don't get why you would be offended by this, so yeah...you are wrong because I don't see it. But everywhere else, I'm with you, gurl, for sure.

Your post clearly shows a bigger issue with double standards with supporting a minority.  You believe "supporting a minority" means agreeing to everything every member of said minority says or does unconditionally and without question?  I can think of plenty of examples of opinions I've heard from gay men regarding a variety of issues, from homophobia to marriage to adoption, that I do NOT agree with at all.  Should I simply hold my tongue because it would be a double-standard to say I support the gay community but disagree with opinions and/or statements I have heard from individuals members of the minority?  That's nonsensical.  Ignoring that any group consists of individuals of potentially conflicting ideologies and opinions in order to make blanket statements about them to further an agenda never works.  Yes, I support LGBT.  And as a member, I also know full well that not all members of LGBT share the same ideas and opinions.  I don't feel the need to point this out every time I disagree with a member of LGBT because I assume they are smart enough to understand how people are different regardless their majority/minority grouping or status.  

 

Twitter is always going to amplify the craziest and most extreme voices.

I honestly can't find any benefit to Twitter.  Anything positive or useful amounts to a grain of sand in the Mojave desert.  Once you get past the massive time suck of scrolling through endless posts, most of them devolve into hateful and offensive insanity.  Highly filtered Facebook interaction and BWW is all I'm willing to deal with.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:59am

I haven't seen much discussion over Tootsie that I would actually label "controversy" besides the tone-deaf merch (which, again, would look VERY weird out of context), but the show does flirt with and dabble in a number of "ha ha, man in dress!" jokes which, no matter how garbage of a person Michael is meant to be, are still from a toxic comedy vein. The subplot of the Romeo actor being confused by his attraction to her is basically a prolonged trap joke and, at least for me, felt like the show's worst side.

Also, what Tootsie is arguing is only part of the equation - what a piece of media is saying and what a piece of media says can and often are two different things, and there's nothing invalid about examining that gap. Tootsie's man-in-dress jokes coming about due to a plot contrivance doesn't mean that the man-in-dress jokes are cleansed of any potential misguidance, since they're still being written in a wider cultural context - the show is not an island.

I should note that Tootsie is by far my favorite musical of the season, so this isn't me being an anti-Tootsie stan or anything like that.

Updated On: 6/12/19 at 10:59 AM

[lemiz3001]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 11:11am

But actual trans people have seen the show and been offended by it and if you don’t want to listen to their concerns, you’re part of the problem. 

My best friend is a MTF woman and I saw the show with her, she had a good time. Should I not listen to her? She much preferred it compared to the regressive sexual politics of The Prom. I find it ironic with all the talk of Head Over Heels, Peppermint saw Tootsie and tweeted about how she enjoyed it. 

As others mentioned before, I am all ears to hearing about how the show is transphobic, but people just keep doing is reposting the American Theatre article which most of us find misleading (and is written by someone who isn't trans). ChairinMain has done a great job explaining why the show may be problematic or make people uncomfortable, but I am still missing why this show is explicitly transphobic. 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 11:27am

^I don't think it IS transphobic, at all, but I understand better those that are triggered by it.   (Again, based on ChairinMain's post.)

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 11:29am

lemiz3001 said: "As others mentioned before, I am all ears to hearing about how the show is transphobic, but people just keep doing is reposting the American Theatre article which most of us find misleading (and is written by someone who isn't trans).ChairinMain has done a great job explaining why the show may be problematic or make people uncomfortable, but I am still missing why this show is explicitly transphobic."

I like this distinction between transphobic and problematic. For a number of reasons, I can get on board with the latter. The former term-- even with the thoughtful post above--loses me. 

As for Twitter- with this, as with everything, the extreme ends of any spectrum get amplified in a way not representative of reality. We see this in politics all the time, and i think we are seeing it here with the notion that there is some "controversy" surrounding Tootsie. There isn't. 

 

[artscallion]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 11:30am

I don't think the show itself is at all trans-phobic. But I think transphobic people will mistakenly see it as affirming their trans-phobic views (straight men dressing up as women to gain access to women's bathrooms.) In my opinion, to buy into, or even argue that notion only lends credibility to the transphobs' misguided fear/hate by acknowledging it.

In my opinion, it would be wise to ignore the controversy. It's not right to direct blame at the show, when the show is clearly not promoting transphobia. Direct blame at the transphobics who erroneously use the show as fodder for their agenda. (Have we even seen that happening?)

[bdn223]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 11:38am

From reading through the thread and twitter to my own dismay. One of the things people keep pointing to as a transphobic and/on man in a dress joke in poor taste is Max’s plotline of falling in love with Dorothy. The argument is that his falling in love with Dorothy is transphobic/offensive because its is questioning his sexuality of a man falling in love with Dorothy, who is a man in a dress. The issue with this argument is that in “This Thing” the song in which he professes his love to Dorothy along with his other lines that address his attraction, he never once mentions any masculine features of Dorothy that would validate this argument. Instead his attraction to Dorothy is comedic, due to his vanity. He is constantly proclaiming his good looks, but while simultaneously degrading Dorothy, calling her old and ugly. Max’s attraction for her stems from Dorothy being the first person to actually challenge him. She demands him to be more then just a pretty face. This is actually a pretty common trope of a romantic comedy, its literally the overarching plot of the tv show Ugly Betty, where Daniel falls for Betty as shes the first woman to challenge and believe in him as a person. Max takes it to the comedic extreme due to his stupidity, which leads him believing a tattoo is the best way for someone to profess their love.
The Max love story is actually a more progressive theme, that women don’t need to dumb themselves down to get a man to like them. It’s literally the basis of Mean Girls plot, Cady believes she has to become Regina to get Aaron to like her, when he already liked her because she challenged him in Math.

[bk]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 5:06pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: "I haven't seen much discussion over Tootsie that I would actually label "controversy" besides the tone-deaf merch (which, again, would look VERY weird out of context), but the show does flirt with and dabble in a number of "ha ha, man in dress!" jokes which, no matter how garbage of a person Michael is meant to be, are still from a toxic comedy vein. Thesubplot of the Romeo actor being confused by his attraction to her is basically a prolonged trap jokeand, at least for me, felt like the show's worst side.

Also, what Tootsie is arguing is only part of the equation- what a piece of media is saying and what a piece of media says can and often are two different things, and there's nothing invalid about examining that gap. Tootsie's man-in-dress jokes coming about due to a plot contrivance doesn't mean that the man-in-dress jokes are cleansed of any potential misguidance, since they're still being written in a wider cultural context - the show is not an island.

I should note that Tootsie is by far my favorite musical of the season, so this isn't me being an anti-Tootsie stan or anything like that."

Who is the arbiter of what a toxic comedy vein is?  There's nothing toxic about the comedy in Tootsie.  It is telling the story it wishes to tell - it veers from the film in ways I don't think work so well, but it's a musical not a treatise or pamphlet.  Everyone is triggered by something, folks.  That is their issue because once you start down the road of trying to smooth everything out for every single person in the world who might be triggered you end up with pablum.  And that seems fine to some people.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 6:57pm

bk said: "Charley Kringas Inc said: "I haven't seen much discussion over Tootsie that I would actually label "controversy" besides the tone-deaf merch (which, again, would look VERY weird out of context), but the show does flirt with and dabble in a number of "ha ha, man in dress!" jokes which, no matter how garbage of a person Michael is meant to be, are still from a toxic comedy vein. Thesubplot of the Romeo actor being confused by his attraction to her is basically a prolonged trap jokeand, at least for me, felt like the show's worst side.

Also, what Tootsie is arguing is only part of the equation- what a piece of media is saying and what a piece of media says can and often are two different things, and there's nothing invalid about examining that gap. Tootsie's man-in-dress jokes coming about due to a plot contrivance doesn't mean that the man-in-dress jokes are cleansed of any potential misguidance, since they're still being written in a wider cultural context - the show is not an island.

I should note that Tootsie is by far my favorite musical of the season, so this isn't me being an anti-Tootsie stan or anything like that."

Who is the arbiter of what a toxic comedy vein is? There's nothing toxic about the comedy in Tootsie. It is telling the story it wishes to tell - it veers from the film in ways I don't think work so well, but it's a musical not a treatise or pamphlet. Everyone is triggered by something, folks. That is their issue because once you start down the road of trying to smooth everything out for every single person in the world who might be triggered you end up with pablum. And that seems fine to some people."

This reads like a sound clip from Fox And Friends. Tootsie is not (technically) a treatise or a pamphlet, but it is media, and media does not exist in a vacuum. If you disagree then I’m not sure where this conversation is meant to go.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 7:19pm

As I said, is Some Like it Hot now a "toxic comedy"? Two guys in drag are running from the mob. This is getting ridiculous.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 9:37pm

Not sure what a 60-year-old movie has to do with this. Care to elaborate?

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 9:56pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Not sure what a 60-year-old movie has to do with this. Care to elaborate?"

It's a popular movie about two guys who dress up as women because, reasons. The two guys do not ever consider themselves women, they dress up as women. One ends up wooing a hot girl (Marilyn Monroe). The other one (as a woman) ends up landing a rich dude. The whole thing is played for COMEDY, which is so transphobic because it, you know, doesn't acknowledge the PAIN of trans/cis people as they start to wear different clothes or get a different look. If it was adapted as a musical (which it might be), it would be transphobic. Because guys becoming girls for reasons other than identity changes is so INSENSITIVE.

Seriously. That's where we are with Tootsie. A popular but somewhat dated movie was adapted to Broadway and it's now transphobic.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:22pm

Weird, it’s almost like attitudes change as time passes and more people are able to join the cultural conversation. Could it be that media is created within and partly as a response to a social atmosphere, and when the atmosphere changes, our relationship to the media changes as well? And that, as more people gain the right to representation and visibility, the struggles that they have had that are potentially negatively reflected in past and current media should be given a closer look, because just as a comedy is influenced by the mores around it, we as an audience are influenced by it and the reaction by our fellow audience members?

Or maybe a play, a movie, a book means nothing and we take nothing from it because it all happens in total isolation. Maybe that’s it.