Tootsie controversy - Page 8

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:48am

You're right, I'm cis. I mean, no, no one can decide for someone else what they are offended by, you're right. But when you have a show embracing all sexual/gender types and only mocking the intolerant, it's hard to take that outrage seriously. To me, it's like someone protesting that the Three Stooges endorses bullying/abuse. It isn't even clear if trans people in general are bothered by the term transsexual, or if only the vocally active group thinks so (and do they get to be the barometer?).

So, yeah, anyone can be offended by whatever they want. You really can't control what offends you. If you are offended, you're offended. And I can decide I consider their offense misplaced. I mean, I'm gay, but there are things people say/do I find offensive relating to gay identity that other gay men don't find offensive at all, and would tell me to get over myself. And it's as okay for them to have their response as it is for me to have mine.

 

[bk]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 2:18am

joevitus said: "No, they really didn't. And if you can point to one historical artifact that supports it, I'd love to see it. You're talking to a guy obsessed with queer history and culturehere. Obsessed with etymology of gay slang and the history of its development.Didn't happen. Pretty sure phrase was invented around 1993. Unless it's something that was big in other countries and their sailing vessels, not the US (I don't know EVERYTHING)."

You think this phrase was invented in 1993?  Afraid not.  I first began hearing it in the early 1970s, maybe even the late 1960s.  And it was around prior to that.  Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_Dorothy

 

[Sho-Tunes-R-Us]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 2:19am

joevitus said: "No, they really didn't. And if you can point to one historical artifact that supports it, I'd love to see it. You're talking to a guy obsessed with queer history and culturehere. Obsessed with etymology of gay slang and the history of its development.Didn't happen. Pretty sure phrase was invented around 1993. Unless it's something that was big in other countries and their sailing vessels, not the US (I don't know EVERYTHING)."

Yes, my friend used it on transatlantic cruises and met other queer men that way.  If still living he would be about 81.  

Oh....and then there's this:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_Dorothy

Check and mate.

 

[Sho-Tunes-R-Us]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 2:46am

bk said: "joevitus said: "No, they really didn't. And if you can point to one historical artifact that supports it, I'd love to see it. You're talking to a guy obsessed with queer history and culturehere. Obsessed with etymology of gay slang and the history of its development.Didn't happen. Pretty sure phrase was invented around 1993. Unless it's something that was big in other countries and their sailing vessels, not the US (I don't know EVERYTHING)."

You think this phrase was invented in 1993? Afraid not. I first began hearing it in the early 1970s, maybe even the late 1960s. And it was around prior to that. Here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_Dorothy

"

Thanks for reiterating this for me, bk.  Seems I found the Wikipedia page about the same time you did.  Isn't Google a wonderful thing?

Someone needs to be a tad more obsessed IMHO.

 

[binau]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 3:42am

book of hamsettos said: "woeisme3 said: "I agree that it’s a weird thing to advertise, but definitely not intentionally hateful and the logic seems like a reach. Trans women are actual women and do saying the shirt is transphobic seems like a weird step backwards. I think the “Friend of Dorothy” shirt is hilarious and not offensive in anyway. It’s kind of a nothing controversy imo."

i personally dont understand whats wrong with the “friend of dorothy” shirt tbh but saying “being a woman is no job for a man” is basically completely derogatory towards cis male drag queens (particularly fem ones). its not really a controversy so much as being atransphobic, bigoted, sexist show that is offensive towards the art of drag

"

From Beetlejuice the musical:  I know you're woke, but you can take a joke

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:19pm

Sho-Tunes-R-Us said: "bk said: "joevitus said: "No, they really didn't. And if you can point to one historical artifact that supports it, I'd love to see it. You're talking to a guy obsessed with queer history and culturehere. Obsessed with etymology of gay slang and the history of its development.Didn't happen. Pretty sure phrase was invented around 1993. Unless it's something that was big in other countries and their sailing vessels, not the US (I don't know EVERYTHING)."

You think this phrase was invented in 1993? Afraid not. I first began hearing it in the early 1970s, maybe even the late 1960s. And it was around prior to that. Here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_Dorothy

"

Thanks for reiterating this for me, bk. Seems I found the Wikipedia page about the same time you did. Isn't Google a wonderful thing?

Someone needs to be a tad more obsessed IMHO.

"

That person. would be you. The footnotes are really poorly sourced. And all the sources are from---surprise, surprise--the exact decade I said the phrase was invented. Fake gay history.

[SeanD2]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:39pm

joevitus said: "That person. would be you. The footnotes are really poorly sourced. And all the sources are from---surprise, surprise--the exact decade I said the phrase was invented. Fake gay history."

Try reading The American Dictionary of Adult Sexual Terms published in 1964. You can pick up a copy on Amazon for $20

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:45pm

SeanD2 said: "joevitus said: "That person. would be you. The footnotes are really poorly sourced. And all the sources are from---surprise, surprise--the exact decade I said the phrase was invented. Fake gay history."

Try readingThe American Dictionary of Adult Sexual Termspublished in 1964. You can pick up a copy on Amazon for $20"

Will do.

Incidentally, I think the double meaning on the Tootsie shirt is cute.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 01:45 PM

[Dragon Eye]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:47pm

In my opinion, it clearly wasn't intentional by the crew, and the cast is just doing their job. That being said I don't think some things were thought through enough, and just in general the man in a dress joke really doesn't feel right to me in 2019

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:53pm

To me, it's an odd choice for a musical, especially at this late date, but I'm really not a fan of turning already popular works into musicals. Mary Rodgers and Steven Sondheim call this kind of thing a "why?" musical. I mean, the show is actually using the movie's logo. I don't get this with Tootsie. Or Fame, for that matter. Why bother?

Updated On: 7/31/19 at 01:53 PM

[kmissa]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 8:00pm

Dragon Eye said: "In my opinion, it clearly wasn't intentional by the crew, and the cast is just doing their job. That being said I don't think some things were thought through enough, and just in general the man in a dress joke really doesn't feel right to me in 2019"

It’s not a man in a dress so much as it’s a remake. I didn’t see the movie, and don’t care for remakes, but why wasn’t there this controversy when it was just an idea? Is there any way to make it not offend when the entire premise is a man pretending to be a woman to get a role. 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 5:31am

kmissa said: "Dragon Eye said: "In my opinion, it clearly wasn't intentional by the crew, and the cast is just doing their job. That being said I don't think some things were thought through enough, and just in general the man in a dress joke really doesn't feel right to me in 2019"

It’s not a man in a dress so much as it’s a remake. I didn’t see the movie, and don’t care for remakes, but why wasn’t there this controversy when it was just an idea? Is there any way to make it not offend when the entire premise is a man pretending to be a woman to get a role."

Since the idea behind Mrs. Doubtfire is pretty much the same (but with kids added in) I know someone who wants to be a part of that creative process to make sure they get it right. Honestly? Door call me transphobic just because I saw the show. Don’t turn the stupid “stan” community against me. Have you done that for every person who saw it and liked it? No? Then why me??? These people make me so angry (the ones who call the musical transphobia the musical and wish bad things upon all involved). I understand being upset. But it’s not doing anything. 

[MarkBearSF]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 4:26pm

joevitus said: "That person. would be you. The footnotes are really poorly sourced. And all the sources are from---surprise, surprise--the exact decade I said the phrase was invented. Fake gay history."

No. It HAS been a phrase for years. I have no idea why you haven't encountered it yet.
Specifically in the cruise ship context, I personally first encountered a "Friends of Dorothy" get-together on a cruise in 1989. It had been long established by then. (This was on a Cunard ship. There were many old folks there).

There are things that have existed without your knowing about them previously. Really.

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 4:51pm

How would you know it had been "long established" if that's the first time you heard it? Look at any gay novel from the 30's-the 70's. Look at issues of the Advocate from the 70's through the 90's. Look at the plays of Ronald Tavel, or interviews with any of the Warhol players, or any time that a gay person is speaking in gay argot among themselves that has been recorded.

Look at any artifact of gay culture and show me where you see it referenced before--pretty much as I said--right around the 1990's. It wasn't there. Nor did I every encounter it from anyone. To this day, the only exposure I've had to the phrase is some online stuff after 1995 or so and one comment by Milo Yiannopoulos (not a guy you want to go to for your information about gay culture).

But straights have somehow zeroed in on it as some sort of secret handshake phrase. I love this pseudo history has people arguing whether it denotes Judy Garland's character, Dorothy Parker or Dorothy Dean. Note even in Tootsie merch, it's being used for a show not about gay people (and probably not written by gay people) as a phrase that somehow straights think is associated with gay culture. It's a phrase used by the kind of people who think the Stonewall riots were caused because the drag queens were mourning Judy Garland's death. Pseudo history.

Updated On: 7/31/19 at 04:51 PM

[Sho-Tunes-R-Us]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 5:08pm

joevitus said: "How would you know it had been "long established" if that's the first time you heard it?Look at any gay novel from the 30's-the 70's. Look at issues of the Advocate from the 70's through the 90's. Look at the plays of Ronald Tavel, or interviews with any of the Warhol players, or any time that a gay person is speaking in gay argot among themselves that has been recorded.

Look at any artifact of gay culture and show me where you see it referenced before--pretty much as I said--right around the 1990's. It wasn't there. Nor did I every encounter it from anyone. To this day, the only exposure I've hadto the phraseis some online stuff after 1995 or so and one comment by Milo Yiannopoulos (not a guy you want to go to for your information about gay culture).

But straights have somehow zeroed in on it as some sort of secret handshake phrase. I love this pseudo history has people arguing whether it denotes Judy Garland's character, Dorothy Parker or Dorothy Dean.Note even in Tootsie merch, it's being used for a show not about gay people (and probably not written by gay people)as a phrase that somehow straights think isassociated with gay culture. It's a phrase used by the kind of people who think the Stonewall riots were caused because the drag queens were mourning Judy Garland's death. Pseudo history."

Oh honey, you need help.

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 5:39pm

Yeah, pointing out there's no record of a phrase before the 90's is a sign of needing help. Oh, honey, you need to stop diagnosing. 

[Sho-Tunes-R-Us]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 7:19pm

joevitus said: "Yeah, pointing out there's no record of a phrase before the 90's is a sign of needing help. Oh, honey, you need to stop diagnosing."

 "Opinions are like arseholes.  EVERYBODY has one.". 

 I arrest my case.

[bk]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 1:29am

joevitus said: "Yeah, pointing out there's no record of a phrase before the 90's is a sign of needing help. Oh, honey, you need to stop diagnosing."

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, the phrase has been in use for decades - you've been pointed to articles and your response is "bad footnotes."  I've heard the phrase many times, starting when I lived in NY in 1969.  So, sorry, there IS a record - I'M  a record.  The fact that you had no knowledge of it is your issue, not anyone else's.  

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 1:09pm

The fact that you're trying to convince me of a phrase long in use with no actual documentation--and the "sources" all come from the 90's and hypothesize a tradition without documenting it--is your problem. 

[Esther2]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 1:37pm

I don't really understand why you want to plant your flag in the ground over this particular issue, especially when, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important.

And because you are wrong. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 2:01pm

No real flag planting. I made an off-topic comment, lots of people have responded, but no one has provided documentation of any example prior to the 90's, just like I said there wasn't. That's all it is. Other people seem far more emotional on the subject than I am.

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 2:06pm

Esther2 said: "I don't really understand why you want to plant your flag in the ground over this particular issue, especially when, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important.

And because you are wrong."

Even if the phrase was made up in the 90's, the joke still makes sense as it connects to the gay community/people outside that community get the joke. But that's not even true as there are multiple people who claim to have heard the phrase in the 60's/70's, so this is such a weird hill to die on.

[bk]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 3:33pm

joevitus said: "The fact that you're trying to convince me of a phrase long in use with no actual documentation--and the "sources" all come from the 90's and hypothesize a tradition without documenting it--is your problem."

What about "I heard the expression in 1969 (and probably before that) when I lived in NY" do you not understand?  1969 isn't the 90's.  https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=a%20friend%20of%20Dorothy

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 3:50pm

It's anecdotal and you can't demonstrate you did, only that you heard it. Funny that no book anywhere from that time by and for gay men includes it. 

Look, you clearly need to win this issue. So say something more, I won't respond and you can feel good about yourself. It seems more important to you (and others) than me.

[Cora Hoover Hooper]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 3:56pm

bk said: "joevitus said: "The fact that you're trying to convince me of a phrase long in use with no actual documentation--and the "sources" all come from the 90's and hypothesize a tradition without documenting it--is your problem."

What about "I heard the expression in 1969 (and probably before that) when I lived in NY" do you not understand? 1969 isn't the 90's. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=a%20friend%20of%20Dorothy"

I remember hearing it in the 70s.