Why wasn't Wonderland nominated for anything!?- Page 2

[philly03]

Posted: 6/16/13 at 11:04pm

^Which I hint at .. But its not like I ever suggested it should've been nominated for score/book/musical etc.

Kim Scharnberg had a tough job with a limited orchestra to manipulate several musical styles, and Marguerite Derricks is actually a fantastic choreographer - with a long list of TV/film/non-theatre credits - similarly having to capture other styles.

But touche.

[gchris11]

Posted: 6/16/13 at 11:21pm

Wonderland=CRAP. One of the WORST shows I ever sat through. It is right up there with A Tale Of Two Cities and The Shags. And Hands On A Hardbody and Motown. Crap I tell you.

Updated On: 6/16/13 at 11:21 PM

[CapnHook]

Posted: 6/16/13 at 11:33pm

At all the creative and design meetings, I imagine it was like:

"Hey guys, we're going to do a musical based off the ALICE IN WONDERLAND/THROUGH THE LOOKINGGLASS story. Audiences know it so it's sure to hook them in.

But we are going to modernize it. This thing needs to sell, and I don't want to scare away any parents not wanting to take their kids to a "period piece" and I don't want to turn off tweens to it by making it "not cool." So we're going to make it about a mother and daughter so both age groups will take to it.

The costumes and sets need to be BIG and OUTRAGEOUS. Think WICKED, but instead of in Oz, we're in Wonderland.

I want people to SEE their money. Make it look intricate, detailed, grand, and expensive. It should be an EXPLOSION of design, FILLED with boldness.

Throw in a boy band number. The tweens will go crazy for it!

Make sure we have an 11 o'clock number. A big power ballad for the lead.

There needs to be lots of opportunity for wild, zany dances.

Throw in a number for the Queen that references other musicals. This way the theater snobs won't attack us as it'll distract them.

There's our start. Now write a show around this! Take as long as you need to write it, just make sure it's a big fat musical hit that is grand enough to ensure a run for 10+ years!"

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 1:03am

Frankie's scores always sound better in recordings. Because he knows how to write a pop hook, and decent pop songs. But they just don't work as theatre songs or musical motifs that tell their stories. If he could find a bookwriter and a lyricist that could turn that into theatre he might someday have a Broadway Show that works. But the common denominator here is Frank, despite all his flops, well they all were flops, he still wields the power and his decisions all fail. WONDERLAND might have worked, a pop score with a classic story, but it was mangeled and reworked to death. And Hook's post (though satirical) is too painfully close to what was probably going on.

[James885]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 3:03am

I actually am a bit of a Wildhorn fan - I enjoy the scores to some of his previous shows.

That being said, Wonderland was a hot mess. The score's okay, with a couple gems (I enjoy Once More I Can See and The Mad Hatter) but the book is a travest, with plot holes you can drive a truck through and underdeveloped characters throughout. The first act needed work but the show really flew off the rails in the second act, with no hope of recovery afterwards. The scene in which Alice meets Lewis Carroll was laughably extraneous and could be extracted from the show and it wouldn't have affected the plot at all.

I was also really disapointed in the set design. I expected sets that were more lush to represent the strange parallel universe that is wonderland. Instead we got those 4 projection panels that moved from side to side throughout the show and the giant upstage LED screen that added virtually nothing to the show. The only time the big screen was used to great effect was at the end of Act 1 when they went through the looking glass.

Wonderland seemed to have a lot of potential. Maybe someday someone will be able to salvage it.

[trentsketch]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 7:54am

James885, at one point, the story of Wonderland focused on Alice, the struggling writer, being pulled into Wonderland many years after she was originally supposed to visit. The scene with Lewis Carroll was the crux of her emotional arc. It was the motivation she needed to find her way back to the real world and become the success she was destined to be.

Then the story changed and changed and changed. I even think at one point the book suggested that Alice was a direct descendant from the Alice in the book and that everyone in the family had to go to Wonderland. Then again, at one point, the story closely followed the plot of Through the Looking Glass with the infinitely expanding chess board and having to defeat the White Queen at her game for Alice to claim her place in the world.

That Alice/Lewis Carroll scene had no place in the Broadway version, but I actually liked it as a theatrical piece. It was the only moment in the second act that had a defined voice.

[Brian07663NJ]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 8:09am

Every show has potential. It's what happens between the idea stage and the moment the curtain goes up is the problem.

Might have sounded like a good idea. Yes there were possibly some notably moments. Other than that the show did not reach the potential. In order for this to have life beyond Broadway would require a serious overhaul. Unfortunately...Wildhorn isn't loved by the critics so that is a big negative against him. Probably better to scrap this and start a new project that doesn't have a demon attached to it.

[ggersten]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 9:04am

How much input does Wildhorn actually have on the shows using his music? Reading posts over the years, there is the impression that he has total control - that these are Wildhorn shows. He cannot be happy that his shows are not commercial successes on Broadway - although he apparently has made/continues to make a good living off the music/royalties (plus his non-theatre shows). Jack Murphy seems responsible as book/lyrics for more notorious shows: Civil War and Wonderland. Don Black gets "credit" for Dracula and Bonnie and Clyde.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 9:12am

He keeps coming back because he can afford to. People forget that Wildhorn spent 20+ years as a pop songwriter and producer, making a substantial amount of $$ in that arena (he wrote and produced several #1 hits).

I do not question Wildhorn's involvement, intentions, or desire to be constantly roasted by the Broadway community. I question the producers and investors who support him. Do they never learn their lesson??? Time and time again, Wildhorn shows are a failure. And Philly or someone else on here will stand up and scream "It's not Frank! It's his collaborators!!" Sorry, but at some point Wildhorn has to take responsibility for what projects he chooses and who he decides to work with. Part of being a successful writer on Broadway is your business savvy and your collaborative choices.

He is becoming desperate for a hit, so it seems like he's just taking every single project he can get - no matter what. This is his downfall.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 9:52am

Frankie's scores always sound better in recordings. Because he knows how to write a pop hook, and decent pop songs. But they just don't work as theatre songs or musical motifs that tell their stories.

I thought much of J&H, Pimpernel and B&C actually worked well, musically. Especially Pimpernel. When I Look at You is one of my favorite ballads of the late 20th century.

[hyperbole_and_a_half]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 10:56am

"Off With Their Heads" started playing on my iPod as I was reading this thread. For those unfamiliar, it's a song for the Queen of Hearts, and I think it's meant to sound like a showstoppery Vegas character ballad. Instead, it sounds almost exactly like the theme song from a cheesy, syndicated sitcom from the 1980s (you know, the kind where the actors turn toward the camera and smile/fake laugh while their credit is displayed)-- you'd just need to replace the vocal line with an alto sax.

And that's the real problem with Wonderland: despite a variety of different song styles, nothing really lands as intended. For example, why was an Asian Cheshire Cat singing a Carlos Santana pastiche while recreating the taxi cab dance from the Ease On Down Reprise of the movie version of The Wiz? There is nothing original going on here. It's all misappropriated garbage.

It sure did have some eye-shattering production values, too.

[Horton]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 11:04am

What does it mean when all the people say on this thread say "I'm actually a Wildhorn fan?" I think people tend to do what Charles Isherwood admitted to in his most recent J&H review; they listen to his cast recordings (J&H, Civil War, Dracula, etc.) while cleaning their garages, hear the few good tunes, and think that they are fans of his, never having actually sat through one of his shows.
I do think he writes a pleasant chord progression and an easy melody with some disney magic…. but I am **far** from a fan of his….

… The nomination i hoped Wonderland would get is for Karen Mason, who actually got decent notices for the show. She wouldn't stand a chance in hell of winning with that material, but it would have been nice as sort of a "we know you're better than this material" gesture...


Wonderland also played out like a cheap Wicked knockoff using Wicked's "magic formula"
[Backstory of Beloved Childhood Story] + [Pop infused score] + [female slightly misunderstood protagonist] + ... Updated On: 6/17/13 at 11:04 AM

[IronMan]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 11:22am

A couple things:
-the show was still running when the Tony nominations were announced. Since it didn't get any, there was no chance to promote it at a national level.

-that online video of the complete show was taken mid-previews, and the show changed drastically during that month. Numbers were cut, added, re-staged, re-written, and the book changed daily. One legendary day the actors came to rehearsal to be handed 70 new script pages.

Updated On: 6/17/13 at 11:22 AM

[James885]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 11:38am

Trentsketch, thanks for the information.

I would've been interested to see the previous florida production to be able track the changes that were made to the show. It seemed like most of the changes they made for Broadway weren't for the better.

I don't know if it's still on youtube, but there was a clip from the previous production of a song called Dont Wanna Fall in Love and another song sung by the Mad Hatter called Nick of Time. Since neither were in the Broadway version, I assume they were cut during the show's rewrites for New York.

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 11:51am

-that online video of the complete show was taken mid-previews, and the show changed drastically during that month. Numbers were cut, added, re-staged, re-written, and the book changed daily. One legendary day the actors came to rehearsal to be handed 70 new script pages.

The changes were not "drastic"... at all. I saw the preview video and the show post opening... It is 90% the exact same thing with some very minor (and barely noticeable) changes. The most noticeable change was having the looking glass appear halfway through Through the Looking Glass instead of at the beginning of the song.

[IronMan]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 12:11pm

That video was taken after weeks of changes had already been made.

[JRybka1611]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 12:32pm

The idea of the show sounded wonderful but having watched it (not on stage but in other places wink wink) -- it was messy. Some of the songs are good.
I am a fan of the Wildhorn.
I genuinely enjoy him. I even have liked "the flops" But then again, I listen to an incredible range of music and can appreciate even stuff that may be "trash" to others.
He must be doing something right, he has had six shows now on Broadway. (they may not have all been hits) but that's better then me.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 12:37pm

They Tried to do what WICKED did but it came off as being over the top and just gaudy. I didn't hate it but i didn't exactly think i was watching anything good. HA

[jetts7]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 12:39pm

Unlike everyone here, I absolutley loved the show! I though Wonderland was at least be nominated for costumes and Kate Shindle, but unfortunatley it didn't

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 12:52pm

"He must be doing something right, he has had six shows now on Broadway. (they may not have all been hits) but that's better then me."

By definition, all have been flops on Broadway. Also I would just say this in your response to six Broadway shows.... Quantity is not indicative of quality.

[trentsketch]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 1:48pm

I didn't even know there was a bootleg of this show during previews. I saw it two or three performances before it opened and formed my opinion based on that.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 2:23pm

I think people tend to do what Charles Isherwood admitted to in his most recent J&H review; they listen to his cast recordings (J&H, Civil War, Dracula, etc.) while cleaning their garages, hear the few good tunes, and think that they are fans of his, never having actually sat through one of his shows.

OR...They have seen several of his shows, perhaps liked some productions but not others, but generally enjoyed the music to most of them. It is entirely possible to be a Wildhorn fan while not faulting him entirely for the productions involving his scores.

[Markecib]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 2:27pm

There was some heavy editing during previews and awkward additions like the ballerina in "I am my own Invention." There was nothing saving that scene which was a leftover from the Tampa format with the doors. The book was the worst part. Who remembers all the tomato soup jokes? They cut back on them before they opened, but they still existed.

I didn't think this was the worst show ever, I enjoyed parts of it. There just didn't seem to be one identity for the show.

[philly03]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 7:46pm

Liza's Headband - while I am most certainly a huge supporter of Frank, I never fail to mention his flaws. He still has many, many fans who come to see the shows for his music (he's been doing concerts for the past year at the Birdland). He/his shows have launched the careers of some of Broadway's greatest voices in the past decade.

The only musicals Frank played an integral part to the book/lyrics was Jekyll & Hyde and The Civil War. Every member of a creative team obviously has some input...

WONDERLAND's 2011 Tampa production would've been ravished on Broadway as well... it was just more "ambitious" of a story.

The show was written pretty much up until a night or two before opening night. The 70+ changes in the script were true. The "tech" aka previews in Tampa were also constantly changing things (except the weekend Janet Dacal missed for In the Heights closing).

The biggest changes from first preview to opening night were the climatic riddle scene between the Hatter & Alice, the lyrics to "Hail the Queen" (re-written with those Broadway-nods mentioned above), turning "Home" (easily the most boring melodies of the show) into a duet between Alice and Chloe, .. and a few more.

The ballerina in "I Am My Own Invention" was a nod to the original productions in Tampa. Believe it or not the 2011 version actually used certain dialogue scenes talking about "door number two" or "door number six" but no door number three or four, etc.

The biggest problem with its book is it tried to make a big deal of its think climax (Alice finding her inner child to defeat the Hatter), which was fixed on Broadway by having Alice confront the actual Hatter. The Chess light-saber wars are some of my favorite "what's happening here" moments in Tampa/Houston.

Jack Murphy and Gregory Boyd had no idea how to write transitions, which were partially fixed on Broadway but they were far too corny and cringeworthy.

I enjoyed it but I wouldn't call it any great piece of theatre. Fluff... Flaws & all.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 6/17/13 at 7:56pm

You're missing my point.

Frank Wildhorn is a superstar, in spite of the numerous flaws and failures, and superstars choose their projects and their collaborators most of the time. Unless Wildhorn is desperate enough to just take on any project that crosses his agent's desk, I think it would be safe to say he SHOULD be held at least partly responsible for the creative work and production as a whole.