now that Glee's ratings are falling — Page 3

I was seriously asking. It didn't seem worth creating its own thread.

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There's a difference between using Auto-Tune to correct some pitch problems and what GLEE does to the voices. Some Auto-Tune is okay, but go overboard, like GLEE does, and you suck all the heart and soul from a song.

in my opinion last night's show was one of the best so far this season, 3 shows in...GLEE to me is an over the top fantasy of these kids performing...it's all fantasy when they get on stage, that is why the auto-tune and the costumes and lights and dancng come into play...the DREAMGIRLS sequence was perfectly woven into the story line and yet it was also a majorly produced musical number...it was Mercedes ultimate fantasy production number and she KILLED IT...wow can that young girl sing...with or without auto-tune...any young person into musical theatre and acting or dancing has dreams of making it big...the GLEE kids get to realize their fantasy on stage every week, and i am totally fine with that...

and lie i used to tell myself when i was young watching the latest alien monster destroy the earth film..."it's only a movie, it's only a movie"...and GLEE is "only a tv show"...there is no real life here...fiction is fiction, not real life...

As problematic as "Glee" is, I'll easily watch it over "Dancing with the Z-List Loser Stars," any of these indistinguishable crime/procedural shows like NCI-whatever/CSI-whatever/L&O-whatever and irritating reality shows like the "Real HouseWhores" series and "Jersey Shore."

Last night was actually a great episode and touched on an issue that many folks can relate to: following your dream or taking the pragmatic route in life. I really liked it and Harry Shum Jr. really surprised me with his acting.

Plus, as per the previews, I'm really curious about Mark Salling and Idina Menzel. I noticed some chemistry between Noah and Shelby two episodes ago. I hope this gets explored more because Noah is a MILF lover and, well, Shelby has legal custody of his daughter.

Glee is the very definition of jumping the shark. Ryan Murphy could have kept it going with better writing, much like he did with Nip/Tuck, but he killed it. Their own agenda made Glee the show that people now love to hate.

A perfect example of Lea Michele's real voice can be found on her god-awful, spastic child beauty pageant version of 'Rain/Parade' on the Tonys. No auto-tune. Mostly sharp or flat. It was an absolute mess. I'm not saying she's not talented, but perhaps she's gotten a little too used to the way things are done in LA versus what she grew up doing in New York City. If you want to see how this song should be performed live, take a look at this. Perfection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_6n3drbhV0

The sooner Glee stops butchering musicals, the better. Not one of those 'kids' has that 'it' factor to make their songs really out of this world.

... And would someone please put a bag over Kurt's head. Watching him sing is bad enough. Having to see him contort his face to be able to cry on cue is ever worse.





BN

Updated On: 11/9/11 at 05:59 PM

As evidenced by GLEE and AMERICAN HORROR STORY, this creative team is good with vignettes, but not whole stories. A good moment here and there does not make a good and long lasting series.

"I'd say the days of Glee being a cultural phenomenon are pretty close to, if not already, over."

Oh absolutely, but that's nearly always true of any show by its third year, at least when it peaks so early (with Glee it seemed to peak--arguably creatively and as a cultural thing within its first half season). There's really no example of that NOT happening, unless it's a show that becomes a hit a few years into its run (Seinfeld, etc). I mean look at the horrendous drop in cultural awareness with Twin Peaks within basically 6 months (and I love Twin Peaks far far more than I ever liked Glee, even its much criticized second season).

If we're looking at teen shows on Fox, The OC also seemed ot be a huge breakout hit in Season 1--lost nearly ahlf its audience by season 2 and quietly ended in season 4 (it also had a huge drop in quality--I found Season 1 fun, but lost all interest with the second season).

I think it'll manage to run five years or so, which honestly is as long, if not sometimes longer than I think most network tv shows *should* run anyway. Fox isn't in danger of not picking it up for a full fourth year at this point anyrate, particularly when they have such expensive flops as Terra Nova (which, if it didn't cost so much, would be seen as a mediocre success), and when the demos are still very desirable to advertisers. We're not talking the 2.0s that even hits on the CW like Vampire Diaries (which, no joke, I think is creatively much stronger than Glee as well) get. It's all relative.

I do think Smash will have to do really well to survive--and I say that with sincere hope for the show. To compare it to 30 Rock isn't really fair--Smash will cost significantly more and is the kind of show NBC is hoping will give them a prestige hit--wasn't it developed for Showtime and when the Showtime guy left there to go to NBC he brought it with him?

As for Auto-tune, I do think it's overused on Glee, but I give them *some* leeway because of how quickly the numbers are put together. An excuse? Sure.

Gotta disagree with Benjamin Nicholas--Nip/Tuck was unwatchable after the second eason (the third did have some camp gothic fun I suppose)--the actors hated Season 4 so much that they actually publicly admitted how hard it was to do because nothign their characters did made sense, and Season 5 was VERY quickly filmed and then F/X slowly aired it over I believe two seasons -- almost like they knew they had to just milk it as long as possible. The show became unwatchable--its original outrageousness no longer connected to any coherent character or story, and I think while the show always had a nasty edge it really became too mean spirited (plots like the son getting breast implants to please his rapist prison inmaet, etc). While not on Glee levels, Nip/Tuck did have water cooler status early on--as a sort of over the top alternative to Six Feet Under (Murphy ahs admitted F/X asked him to do a similar show), but I really didn't know anyone watching it by season 4 (I guess the "Carver rapist" having no penis though there ere sperm samples etc wasreally the downfall).

(I love to blame Murphy because he comes off as such an idiot in interviews but I suppose his writing partner on all his projects except the first season of Popular--and co-creator--brad Falchuk deserves some "credit").

I actually admit I'm enjoying American Horror Story right now a *lot* because the things that bug me so much in Murphy's other shows (chracters having no consistency, dropped stories, WTF moments, etc) are things I'll accept in an over the top, campy, gothic horror show, but I also have learned not to expect much in future seasons.

*That said* I do think Glee seems to have at least, slightly learned from last year (even Murphy has owned up to some of his mistakes, which I thought would never happen). Bringing on Buffy alumni Mati Noxon as overall story consultant may have helped (he must like the Joss Whedon/Buffy/Angel camp--Tim Minear who was show runner for much of Angel and all of Firefly is now story consultant at American Horror Story), and while a lot of head shaking moments still happen on Glee, the songs do seem to somewhat be better integrated into the story once again, and characters aren't flip flopping from episode to episode as much. I guess we'll see--but certainly to call it some big flop at this point--if you like it or not--is completely clueless.

I don't know as much about Jason Schwartz (I think that's his name?) career with TV shows--besides OC I believe he co-created Gossip Girl (which by all accounts nobody watches anymore) and Chuck, as well as the current flop Hart of Dixie, but with OC he did seem to show some of Ryan Murphy's weakness. IE a good concept that manages to both recycle popular tv and genre qualities but give them some sort of fresh twist, and a good sense of character and story direction for the first half season or so (cuz Nip/Tuck was cable which has shorter seasons I'll grant him full season there).

I was still a teen when OC started and I remember to my surprise even my dad (who would never usually watch anything even remotely soap opera) really liked the first year. It lost something with that horrible second half of the season story with psycho Oliver who had nearly the whole cast oblivious to how crazy he was, but I stuck with it until Season 2. I admit I've stuck with Glee (as a more casual viewer) longer, and I do stand by saying this year seems a *slight* improvement over last year, but there is some similarity...

And yes--I went to a sports oriented high school, but it wasn't at all unheard of for "jocks" to want to be in the school musical, and once I started getting leads I was pretty well known (and, at least I thought, well liked) throughout the school. The cast parties were also known as the ones that pretty much everyone at the school wanted to try to go to (though that may speak more to, even as teens, actors drinking even more than athletes :P ).

I think it's too soon to tell the fate of "Smash." I hope it does well because the cast is very talented.

You're absolutely spot on IMHO, particularly with Nip/Tuck (and yes, with how completely over the top it became the finale was bizarre--I barely remember it but it seemed to just kinda peter out when I expected at least one more stupidly pointless over the top moment. Everyone involved seemed pretty tired of the show by that point, from interviews, etc).

(And even Popular, which is probably his least watched show, completely crumbled after a promising first year)

Murphy and Falchuck initially said that American Horror Story would have different casts each year--but of course being Murphy he's now gone back and said some of the cast probably will be around (either dead or alive--sadly Lange only agreed to work in LA for a one season contract so probably wouldn't be one of them)--kinda how he keeps going back and forth about whether the Glee cast will change or they'll find away to bring the grads back, etc. Anyway, it seems like a mistake with AHS which would work better with a fresh take each year (particularly since it's a Murphy show and he seems to need fresh groups of characters to come up with anything worthwhile).

At any rate I think Murphy's track record with film is worse--Eat Pray love was fine I guess for what it was but hardly any good, and Running With Scissors managed to take intriguing material (even if I am one of the people who never bought it as autobiography), a great cast, and somehow completely **** it all up. The Normal Heart should be worried with him planning to be at the helm...

Here is my summation of why Glee never completely works as a whole:

1. Ryan Murphy's ideas are never well thought out for the long term. For example, with American Horror Story, wouldn't a family moving into a haunted house (especially one as haunted as the one in question), eventually move out or kill each other? Thus ending the series. Why wouldn't you think of this before you pitch a show? I think AHS is a mess of a show, a scary/interesting mess, but a mess nonetheless. With Glee it's the same, how long can you really hold them back from winning Nationals before it gets redundant and contrived. 2 maybe three seasons at best. Because isn't that really the main goal of this show? To have the Glee club win nationals?

2. It's written too much for the masses. Ryan unfortunately is a die-hard pop culture fan. He reads blogs and message boards and unfortunately listens to them. We all said "Lea Michele looks like Idina Menzel...cast her as Rachel's mom"...and guess what...they did it. "We wanna see Gwyneth again"...and alas, she pops up again (and for the record I was one of those people). And unfortunately, writing what your audience wants to see slows down the narrative and explains why the 2nd season was so inconsistent ...too many stops and starts.

3. The show doesn't know what it wants to be. It's supposed to be satire/black comedy. Yet for most of the season last year, it was a drama, with comedy thrown in, which is not what the pilot sold us on. Chris Colfer was nominated in the category of Supporting Actor in a Comedy at the Emmy's this year, but the episode they submitted for consideration was the "Grilled Cheesus" episode. His character's dad almost dies of a heart attack...almost no comedy from Chris at all. The show needs to make up it's mind.

4. Execution is off. The show would have made so much more sense if the Glee Club started off sounding bad and practicing to sound better (much like say, the choir from Sister Act). But from the end of the pilot, they sound amazing--as do all of the other Glee Clubs featured in the show. Pull up some high school glee clubs on YouTube...they don't all sound that good. From the moment Mr. Shue hands them the sheet music, they all know the song automatically and everyone knows which part to sing and all the proper notes. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

5. Unsustainable Villians. Mr. Murphy doesn't write his villains well...or at least doesn't give them a sustainable arc. Terry was a shrew of a wife from the beginning, and we hated her. She had no chance of sticking around or doing any serious damage because we knew she had an endpoint, the day Mr. Shue divorced her. Then they kept trying to bring her back which made no sense and her efforts were fruitless (and I'm a self admitted Jessalyn Gilsig lover-she plays a bitch like no one else on TV- see Nip/Tuck)
Sue Sylvester should be a guest star at best. Having her in nearly every episode becomes laughable, and not in a good way. Since pretty much all of her attempts to quash the Glee Club have been fruitless and feeble...her presence on the show has become an annoyance. She's good for a good quip about Shue's hair or an off color racial remark, but not much else. Do you notice or care when she's not in an episode...?

6. Inconsistent Characters. Unfortunately, between episodes, the glee club characters fall down and hit their head and become amnesiacs. Their motivations change from episode to episode, as do their alliances and friendships. Remember the episode where Santana was thrown out of the club? Why was she let back in so easily? Remember when Sue was done messing with the Glee Club (the one where her sister died)? Then cut to the Season 3 premiere, she's cutting piano wires and running for office to cut drama and music programs. How can you have a successful show when characters can't seem to make up their mind. It's like those annoying people you meet in life that can't make a simple declarative sentence and are constantly saying "um" or "uhhh" between words... His villains come off like cartoon villians, like the evil mustached man tying the poor helpless girl to train tracks. For some reason on Murphy's show Popular, the Sue Sylvester equivalent, Bobbi Glass (the crazy bio teacher), worked...because he surrounded the villain with other crazy characters, ie Nicole, Mary Cherry, etc.

Despite all of these qualms...I do watch the show, every single week....because I believe there is tremendous talent on this show. Amber Riley. Chris Colfer. Darren Chris. Lea Michele. All have tremendous voices...auto-tuned or not. Look up Amber on Youtube singing Hate on Me at some club in LA. AMAZING. If you saw Lea or Jon Groff in Spring Awakening or Hair...you know they are bursting with talent. And Chris has that unique voice, that some may find annoying, but that I find fresh and different. His "House is not a Home" is one of my favorites from the entire run of the show.

I think the talented cast, first and foremost, is what keeps this show going and what keeps people coming back.

Updated On: 11/10/11 at 06:17 PM

I like Modern Family but don't love it--so take this with a grain fo salt--but while I think it has stuck to quality, I do think it repeats the same basic situation with each family each week. Also as a show in the Zeitgest I think it was mor ea cult hit in its first year and has grown from there--but I know that's debatable.

Crushgroove your deconstruction of why it doesn't work is pretty spot on--and can be said, as you pointed out, with most Murphy shows (I do wonder how much blame Falchuck should get--he doesn't liek to do interviews so rarely gets any 'credit"--of course Gleew as originall Ian Brennan, sp?, 's creation adn apparently was MUCH darker till Murphya dn Falchuck retooled it. Ironically I think Brennan wrote some of the only decent episodes last year).

And not to verve even more off topic, but they have gone out of their way to explain why the family in Horror Story can't move out--and it sounds liek they will kill each other, or at least come close (I still hope Murphy actually sticks to something he said and has new concepts and families each year but like I said, from recent interviews it doesn't seem likely).

And yes, I actually forgot about Shue's wife on Glee--loved her on Nip/Tuck (at least the early years), but she was a hateful character on Glee from the start, and each time she'd pop back up seemed pointless. That's true of some minor characters that Murphy seems to find hysterical, like the vaguely predatory, gay, ex Glee teacher, or the "JewFro" guy whose name I can't remember. It's hard to fully accept Murphy's talks about acceptance of all kind when you have in the same episode preaching tolerance to gays, a character defined by being Jewish and repulsive the butt of weird masturbation jokes--which goes back to what you said about tone--is this a dark comedy or a drama?

Which goes to what you said about character consistency--if it's a drama they have to work on that (one episode Mr Shue is an all knowing, cool, caring teacher, the next he's a square who apparently only likes 70s music, and the next he's someone who marks tests while drunk...) I think the character inconsistency, particularly in Season 2 (It seems to, so far, be SLIGHTLY improved this year) is actually what bugs me the most. Characters "learn lessons" and then forget them week by week, or one episode Finn will be pining for Rachel, the next week he'll find her obnoxious and physically push her at a party...

Early on there seemed to genuinely be effort to integrate the songs, at least in some vague way, to the action and story. For the firs thalf of Season 1 they also seemed to be doing increasingly clever things with the songs--using them as dialogue etc--not just as performances in the school cafeteria, choir room or theatre. Last year particularly they gave that up and they were often completely random (I actually liked how some of West Side Story was used because of this).

No babies and no more sex either. I feel bad for Curt and Blane. That had to be one of the most boring and tame sex scenes ever captured on film.