now that Glee's ratings are falling- Page 3

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 10/4/11 at 8:34pm

I was seriously asking. It didn't seem worth creating its own thread.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 10/4/11 at 9:47pm

^^^^

Fair question then. Sorry if I seemed to bristle. I'd already been accused (with some justification) of thread-jacking.

Basically, I think high school nowadays should be able to cast without considering color. When I was a kid, this was a sensitive subject because interracial romances on stage could still attract violence, but schools in Florida had only been integrated for a few years. By now, I think everybody should be used to it.

Except that one town in Georgia that still holds separate proms. Jesus!

[HumATune]

Posted: 10/4/11 at 11:56pm

There's a difference between using Auto-Tune to correct some pitch problems and what GLEE does to the voices. Some Auto-Tune is okay, but go overboard, like GLEE does, and you suck all the heart and soul from a song.

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 10/5/11 at 4:55am

How much vocal retouching depends on who's singing what on "Glee." It also depends on the song that's being covered. There have been times when Lea Michele has sung on the show without singing along to a pre-recorded track and you can tell how much her voice gets engineered compared to when she sings a song live as she's being filmed. In the pilot, I believe she sang "On My Own" Auto-Tune free as did Cory Monteith and Michele et al. in "You're the One that I Want" from "Grease." Monteith singing "Can't Fight This Feeling" by REO Speedwagon in the shower in the pilot was also his own voice IIRC.

Ke$ha's songs are pretty much entirely Auto-Tuned so when "Glee" covered them, the show followed the original production values. Ditto for "No Air" when Cory Monteith and Lea Michele recorded it in the same manner as Chris Brown and Jordin Sparks's original and so on and so forth.

As for color blind casting in high school, that's very common even back when I was in high school. Paolo Montalban played Curly in "Oklahoma!" in his high school and he couldn't be any more different from Alfred Drake, Gordon MacRae or Hugh Jackman. Same logic applies to a high school production of "West Side Story."

Heck, some of the funniest things I've seen on You Tube are musicals that when done professionally are traditionally cast with actors of color but the roles are played by white kids in the high school mountings. There are clips of "Dreamgirls" where the Dreams are all white and "Aida" where the title character is Caucasian. In high school, it's all good on the nontraditional casting front. What's important is that you get kids interested in doing the work and performing irrespective of their ethnicity.

[broadwaybabywannabe]

Posted: 10/5/11 at 6:09am

in my opinion last night's show was one of the best so far this season, 3 shows in...GLEE to me is an over the top fantasy of these kids performing...it's all fantasy when they get on stage, that is why the auto-tune and the costumes and lights and dancng come into play...the DREAMGIRLS sequence was perfectly woven into the story line and yet it was also a majorly produced musical number...it was Mercedes ultimate fantasy production number and she KILLED IT...wow can that young girl sing...with or without auto-tune...any young person into musical theatre and acting or dancing has dreams of making it big...the GLEE kids get to realize their fantasy on stage every week, and i am totally fine with that...

and lie i used to tell myself when i was young watching the latest alien monster destroy the earth film..."it's only a movie, it's only a movie"...and GLEE is "only a tv show"...there is no real life here...fiction is fiction, not real life...

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 10/5/11 at 10:28am

I dunno, I'm always underwhelmed by Amber singing Effie White songs. Maybe because so many greats have come before her and I keep comparing her to them. I also just don't think she's the best actress, so while her vocals are decent they don't really make me feel anything.

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 10/5/11 at 6:04pm

As problematic as "Glee" is, I'll easily watch it over "Dancing with the Z-List Loser Stars," any of these indistinguishable crime/procedural shows like NCI-whatever/CSI-whatever/L&O-whatever and irritating reality shows like the "Real HouseWhores" series and "Jersey Shore."

Last night was actually a great episode and touched on an issue that many folks can relate to: following your dream or taking the pragmatic route in life. I really liked it and Harry Shum Jr. really surprised me with his acting.

Plus, as per the previews, I'm really curious about Mark Salling and Idina Menzel. I noticed some chemistry between Noah and Shelby two episodes ago. I hope this gets explored more because Noah is a MILF lover and, well, Shelby has legal custody of his daughter.

[CyCoSpAz2]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 5:36pm

Last night's episode, arguably the most-hyped in terms of the fandom, pulled a 3.1/8 with 6.91 million viewers, and got crushed by NCIS, which got a 4.1/11 with 20.38 million viewers. I really don't think the World Series can be blamed anymore, since this is the second week back from the hiatus.

I'd say the days of Glee being a cultural phenomenon are pretty close to, if not already, over.

[BenjaminNicholas2]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 5:59pm

Glee is the very definition of jumping the shark. Ryan Murphy could have kept it going with better writing, much like he did with Nip/Tuck, but he killed it. Their own agenda made Glee the show that people now love to hate.

A perfect example of Lea Michele's real voice can be found on her god-awful, spastic child beauty pageant version of 'Rain/Parade' on the Tonys. No auto-tune. Mostly sharp or flat. It was an absolute mess. I'm not saying she's not talented, but perhaps she's gotten a little too used to the way things are done in LA versus what she grew up doing in New York City. If you want to see how this song should be performed live, take a look at this. Perfection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_6n3drbhV0

The sooner Glee stops butchering musicals, the better. Not one of those 'kids' has that 'it' factor to make their songs really out of this world.

... And would someone please put a bag over Kurt's head. Watching him sing is bad enough. Having to see him contort his face to be able to cry on cue is ever worse.





BN


Updated On: 11/9/11 at 05:59 PM

[broadwaybabywannabe2]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 6:13pm

i will defend GLEE from all you non-gleeks...last night's homage...yes homage to WEST SIDE STORY was absolutely the best written and directed and acted GLEE in the last 2 years...the way the musical was woven into the fabric of the kids putting on the stage show was almost breathtaking...and all the personal dramas were compelling beyond the usual...i loved the direction in having the Jets gang answer back during AMERICA....that was a really coo0l way to give those singers a chance to join in on the fun...and this being the 50th anniversary of the release of the movie WEST SIDE STORY...i felt it was all done with class...

and BTW the gay drag bar scene was perfect...with THELMA HOUSTON'S hit DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY playing in the background...reminded me of the bars i used to visit when i was younger...and i used fake ID's to get in as well...

gleek here and proud of it...

[Idiot]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 6:20pm

As evidenced by GLEE and AMERICAN HORROR STORY, this creative team is good with vignettes, but not whole stories. A good moment here and there does not make a good and long lasting series.

[CyCoSpAz2]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 6:25pm

well the "best written and directed and acted Glee in the last 2 years" was watched by the fewest viewers in the last 2 years, so there's no need to defend the "quality" of the show in a thread about the show's ratings, the numbers speak for themselves.

Plenty of great shows, shows miles better than Glee, have suffered low ratings from the start and gotten canceled quickly. Glee has had the luxury of not only widespread pop culture exposure, but also a VERY large Super Bowl lead-in which gave plenty of people the chance to watch the show, and I have given you yesterday's ratings. The damage to this show has been done, and it will take more than a "breathtaking" episode to get people watching again.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 6:27pm

"I'd say the days of Glee being a cultural phenomenon are pretty close to, if not already, over."

Oh absolutely, but that's nearly always true of any show by its third year, at least when it peaks so early (with Glee it seemed to peak--arguably creatively and as a cultural thing within its first half season). There's really no example of that NOT happening, unless it's a show that becomes a hit a few years into its run (Seinfeld, etc). I mean look at the horrendous drop in cultural awareness with Twin Peaks within basically 6 months (and I love Twin Peaks far far more than I ever liked Glee, even its much criticized second season).

If we're looking at teen shows on Fox, The OC also seemed ot be a huge breakout hit in Season 1--lost nearly ahlf its audience by season 2 and quietly ended in season 4 (it also had a huge drop in quality--I found Season 1 fun, but lost all interest with the second season).

I think it'll manage to run five years or so, which honestly is as long, if not sometimes longer than I think most network tv shows *should* run anyway. Fox isn't in danger of not picking it up for a full fourth year at this point anyrate, particularly when they have such expensive flops as Terra Nova (which, if it didn't cost so much, would be seen as a mediocre success), and when the demos are still very desirable to advertisers. We're not talking the 2.0s that even hits on the CW like Vampire Diaries (which, no joke, I think is creatively much stronger than Glee as well) get. It's all relative.

I do think Smash will have to do really well to survive--and I say that with sincere hope for the show. To compare it to 30 Rock isn't really fair--Smash will cost significantly more and is the kind of show NBC is hoping will give them a prestige hit--wasn't it developed for Showtime and when the Showtime guy left there to go to NBC he brought it with him?

As for Auto-tune, I do think it's overused on Glee, but I give them *some* leeway because of how quickly the numbers are put together. An excuse? Sure.

Gotta disagree with Benjamin Nicholas--Nip/Tuck was unwatchable after the second eason (the third did have some camp gothic fun I suppose)--the actors hated Season 4 so much that they actually publicly admitted how hard it was to do because nothign their characters did made sense, and Season 5 was VERY quickly filmed and then F/X slowly aired it over I believe two seasons -- almost like they knew they had to just milk it as long as possible. The show became unwatchable--its original outrageousness no longer connected to any coherent character or story, and I think while the show always had a nasty edge it really became too mean spirited (plots like the son getting breast implants to please his rapist prison inmaet, etc). While not on Glee levels, Nip/Tuck did have water cooler status early on--as a sort of over the top alternative to Six Feet Under (Murphy ahs admitted F/X asked him to do a similar show), but I really didn't know anyone watching it by season 4 (I guess the "Carver rapist" having no penis though there ere sperm samples etc wasreally the downfall).

(I love to blame Murphy because he comes off as such an idiot in interviews but I suppose his writing partner on all his projects except the first season of Popular--and co-creator--brad Falchuk deserves some "credit").

I actually admit I'm enjoying American Horror Story right now a *lot* because the things that bug me so much in Murphy's other shows (chracters having no consistency, dropped stories, WTF moments, etc) are things I'll accept in an over the top, campy, gothic horror show, but I also have learned not to expect much in future seasons.

*That said* I do think Glee seems to have at least, slightly learned from last year (even Murphy has owned up to some of his mistakes, which I thought would never happen). Bringing on Buffy alumni Mati Noxon as overall story consultant may have helped (he must like the Joss Whedon/Buffy/Angel camp--Tim Minear who was show runner for much of Angel and all of Firefly is now story consultant at American Horror Story), and while a lot of head shaking moments still happen on Glee, the songs do seem to somewhat be better integrated into the story once again, and characters aren't flip flopping from episode to episode as much. I guess we'll see--but certainly to call it some big flop at this point--if you like it or not--is completely clueless.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 6:52pm

Comparing GLEE to THE O.C. is right on, in my opinion. I thought the latter was brilliant in its first half season because the plot moved so fast, there was quite literally no way to know what they might do by the end of an hour. In most prime time soaps, one comes to expect a great deal of stalling to drag out the plot.

GLEE shared some of that pace and surprise in its first season.

I wondered how THE O.C. could keep it up and the answer, as Eric points out, is that it couldn't. After the first season, characters simply began to repeat themselves (just as they have done on GLEE).

Alas, it seems to be the price of a daring narrative, given a finite number of central cast members, the writers run out of new places to go.

For my money, GLEE could give the whole outsiders v. bullies theme a rest. At this point, the Glee Club kids have gone to nationals and starred in the school musical. There's no way they are still the same "losers" they were when the series began. (I say this from personal experience: starring in school musicals quite literally changed my high school social life. Okay, I wasn't the star quarterback, but I was invited to the same parties and I was no longer "that weird guy on the debate team.")

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 7:51pm

I don't know as much about Jason Schwartz (I think that's his name?) career with TV shows--besides OC I believe he co-created Gossip Girl (which by all accounts nobody watches anymore) and Chuck, as well as the current flop Hart of Dixie, but with OC he did seem to show some of Ryan Murphy's weakness. IE a good concept that manages to both recycle popular tv and genre qualities but give them some sort of fresh twist, and a good sense of character and story direction for the first half season or so (cuz Nip/Tuck was cable which has shorter seasons I'll grant him full season there).

I was still a teen when OC started and I remember to my surprise even my dad (who would never usually watch anything even remotely soap opera) really liked the first year. It lost something with that horrible second half of the season story with psycho Oliver who had nearly the whole cast oblivious to how crazy he was, but I stuck with it until Season 2. I admit I've stuck with Glee (as a more casual viewer) longer, and I do stand by saying this year seems a *slight* improvement over last year, but there is some similarity...

And yes--I went to a sports oriented high school, but it wasn't at all unheard of for "jocks" to want to be in the school musical, and once I started getting leads I was pretty well known (and, at least I thought, well liked) throughout the school. The cast parties were also known as the ones that pretty much everyone at the school wanted to try to go to (though that may speak more to, even as teens, actors drinking even more than athletes :P ).

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 11/9/11 at 8:13pm

I'm certainly no TV industry expert but based on what I've read from some sites, in this case, TV By The Numbers, it seems that prime time network shows like "Glee" are measured against the other programs that air on Fox with respect to its prospects of renewal/cancellation.

http://bit.ly/rq89ho

http://bit.ly/rByAGV

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the characters played by Lea Michele, Cory Monteith, Chris Colfer et al. actually graduate and whether the series goes on for another season.

[beautywickedlover]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 11:39am

I think it's too soon to tell the fate of "Smash." I hope it does well because the cast is very talented.

[ComingUpRoses2]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 12:46pm

I agree about Ryan Murphy and his shows. Nip/Tuck was brilliant in its first two seasons and even a lot of fun in season 3, but once season 4 started, besides a few choice moments (mostly involving it's wonderful line up of guest stars), it was a huge mess and only got worse until the amazingly underwhelming finale. Even the return of the glorious Famke Janssen and her Ava character couldn't save that finale.

Glee was pretty decent and cute at first, but it's been a mess for a while.

American Horror Story is thankfully still keeping my interest. It would be in their best interest to change up the cast and plotline each season and focus on something else equally horrific like werewolves, vampires, slashers, etc. If Murphy keeps this cast, location, and plot line, I wouldn't keep watching, cause I know he'll mess it up.

There's my rant. That is all.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 2:20pm

You're absolutely spot on IMHO, particularly with Nip/Tuck (and yes, with how completely over the top it became the finale was bizarre--I barely remember it but it seemed to just kinda peter out when I expected at least one more stupidly pointless over the top moment. Everyone involved seemed pretty tired of the show by that point, from interviews, etc).

(And even Popular, which is probably his least watched show, completely crumbled after a promising first year)

Murphy and Falchuck initially said that American Horror Story would have different casts each year--but of course being Murphy he's now gone back and said some of the cast probably will be around (either dead or alive--sadly Lange only agreed to work in LA for a one season contract so probably wouldn't be one of them)--kinda how he keeps going back and forth about whether the Glee cast will change or they'll find away to bring the grads back, etc. Anyway, it seems like a mistake with AHS which would work better with a fresh take each year (particularly since it's a Murphy show and he seems to need fresh groups of characters to come up with anything worthwhile).

At any rate I think Murphy's track record with film is worse--Eat Pray love was fine I guess for what it was but hardly any good, and Running With Scissors managed to take intriguing material (even if I am one of the people who never bought it as autobiography), a great cast, and somehow completely **** it all up. The Normal Heart should be worried with him planning to be at the helm...

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 5:59pm

I've never seen NIP/TUCK, Eric, but I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks on GLEE, POPULAR and THE O.C.

And though I thought this week's episode of GLEE had its moments, I'm mostly watching out of habit now. It was telling that the story they wrote for Damian from Celtic Thunder (Britney and the Leprechaun) was actually less interesting and amusing than the one the contestants on THE GLEE PROJECT thought up themselves (Britney hears Damian is a legal alien and thinks he's from outer space).

[crushgroove]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 6:17pm

Here is my summation of why Glee never completely works as a whole:

1. Ryan Murphy's ideas are never well thought out for the long term. For example, with American Horror Story, wouldn't a family moving into a haunted house (especially one as haunted as the one in question), eventually move out or kill each other? Thus ending the series. Why wouldn't you think of this before you pitch a show? I think AHS is a mess of a show, a scary/interesting mess, but a mess nonetheless. With Glee it's the same, how long can you really hold them back from winning Nationals before it gets redundant and contrived. 2 maybe three seasons at best. Because isn't that really the main goal of this show? To have the Glee club win nationals?

2. It's written too much for the masses. Ryan unfortunately is a die-hard pop culture fan. He reads blogs and message boards and unfortunately listens to them. We all said "Lea Michele looks like Idina Menzel...cast her as Rachel's mom"...and guess what...they did it. "We wanna see Gwyneth again"...and alas, she pops up again (and for the record I was one of those people). And unfortunately, writing what your audience wants to see slows down the narrative and explains why the 2nd season was so inconsistent ...too many stops and starts.

3. The show doesn't know what it wants to be. It's supposed to be satire/black comedy. Yet for most of the season last year, it was a drama, with comedy thrown in, which is not what the pilot sold us on. Chris Colfer was nominated in the category of Supporting Actor in a Comedy at the Emmy's this year, but the episode they submitted for consideration was the "Grilled Cheesus" episode. His character's dad almost dies of a heart attack...almost no comedy from Chris at all. The show needs to make up it's mind.

4. Execution is off. The show would have made so much more sense if the Glee Club started off sounding bad and practicing to sound better (much like say, the choir from Sister Act). But from the end of the pilot, they sound amazing--as do all of the other Glee Clubs featured in the show. Pull up some high school glee clubs on YouTube...they don't all sound that good. From the moment Mr. Shue hands them the sheet music, they all know the song automatically and everyone knows which part to sing and all the proper notes. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

5. Unsustainable Villians. Mr. Murphy doesn't write his villains well...or at least doesn't give them a sustainable arc. Terry was a shrew of a wife from the beginning, and we hated her. She had no chance of sticking around or doing any serious damage because we knew she had an endpoint, the day Mr. Shue divorced her. Then they kept trying to bring her back which made no sense and her efforts were fruitless (and I'm a self admitted Jessalyn Gilsig lover-she plays a bitch like no one else on TV- see Nip/Tuck)
Sue Sylvester should be a guest star at best. Having her in nearly every episode becomes laughable, and not in a good way. Since pretty much all of her attempts to quash the Glee Club have been fruitless and feeble...her presence on the show has become an annoyance. She's good for a good quip about Shue's hair or an off color racial remark, but not much else. Do you notice or care when she's not in an episode...?

6. Inconsistent Characters. Unfortunately, between episodes, the glee club characters fall down and hit their head and become amnesiacs. Their motivations change from episode to episode, as do their alliances and friendships. Remember the episode where Santana was thrown out of the club? Why was she let back in so easily? Remember when Sue was done messing with the Glee Club (the one where her sister died)? Then cut to the Season 3 premiere, she's cutting piano wires and running for office to cut drama and music programs. How can you have a successful show when characters can't seem to make up their mind. It's like those annoying people you meet in life that can't make a simple declarative sentence and are constantly saying "um" or "uhhh" between words... His villains come off like cartoon villians, like the evil mustached man tying the poor helpless girl to train tracks. For some reason on Murphy's show Popular, the Sue Sylvester equivalent, Bobbi Glass (the crazy bio teacher), worked...because he surrounded the villain with other crazy characters, ie Nicole, Mary Cherry, etc.

Despite all of these qualms...I do watch the show, every single week....because I believe there is tremendous talent on this show. Amber Riley. Chris Colfer. Darren Chris. Lea Michele. All have tremendous voices...auto-tuned or not. Look up Amber on Youtube singing Hate on Me at some club in LA. AMAZING. If you saw Lea or Jon Groff in Spring Awakening or Hair...you know they are bursting with talent. And Chris has that unique voice, that some may find annoying, but that I find fresh and different. His "House is not a Home" is one of my favorites from the entire run of the show.

I think the talented cast, first and foremost, is what keeps this show going and what keeps people coming back.


Updated On: 11/10/11 at 06:17 PM

[AdamBritten2]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 7:22pm

"Oh absolutely, but that's nearly always true of any show by its third year, at least when it peaks so early"

Hasn't happened yet with Modern Family...and I'm STILL upset that Kurt from Glee beat Cam from Modern Family at the Golden Globes.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 8:20pm

I like Modern Family but don't love it--so take this with a grain fo salt--but while I think it has stuck to quality, I do think it repeats the same basic situation with each family each week. Also as a show in the Zeitgest I think it was mor ea cult hit in its first year and has grown from there--but I know that's debatable.

Crushgroove your deconstruction of why it doesn't work is pretty spot on--and can be said, as you pointed out, with most Murphy shows (I do wonder how much blame Falchuck should get--he doesn't liek to do interviews so rarely gets any 'credit"--of course Gleew as originall Ian Brennan, sp?, 's creation adn apparently was MUCH darker till Murphya dn Falchuck retooled it. Ironically I think Brennan wrote some of the only decent episodes last year).

And not to verve even more off topic, but they have gone out of their way to explain why the family in Horror Story can't move out--and it sounds liek they will kill each other, or at least come close (I still hope Murphy actually sticks to something he said and has new concepts and families each year but like I said, from recent interviews it doesn't seem likely).

And yes, I actually forgot about Shue's wife on Glee--loved her on Nip/Tuck (at least the early years), but she was a hateful character on Glee from the start, and each time she'd pop back up seemed pointless. That's true of some minor characters that Murphy seems to find hysterical, like the vaguely predatory, gay, ex Glee teacher, or the "JewFro" guy whose name I can't remember. It's hard to fully accept Murphy's talks about acceptance of all kind when you have in the same episode preaching tolerance to gays, a character defined by being Jewish and repulsive the butt of weird masturbation jokes--which goes back to what you said about tone--is this a dark comedy or a drama?

Which goes to what you said about character consistency--if it's a drama they have to work on that (one episode Mr Shue is an all knowing, cool, caring teacher, the next he's a square who apparently only likes 70s music, and the next he's someone who marks tests while drunk...) I think the character inconsistency, particularly in Season 2 (It seems to, so far, be SLIGHTLY improved this year) is actually what bugs me the most. Characters "learn lessons" and then forget them week by week, or one episode Finn will be pining for Rachel, the next week he'll find her obnoxious and physically push her at a party...

Early on there seemed to genuinely be effort to integrate the songs, at least in some vague way, to the action and story. For the firs thalf of Season 1 they also seemed to be doing increasingly clever things with the songs--using them as dialogue etc--not just as performances in the school cafeteria, choir room or theatre. Last year particularly they gave that up and they were often completely random (I actually liked how some of West Side Story was used because of this).

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 9:42pm

I think Murphy or somebody in power at GLEE has some weird issues re babies (and/or women).

Shue's wife pretends to be pregnant when she isn't.

Quinn falsely convinces Finn her baby is his due to a hot tub ejaculation.

Shelby takes Quinn's baby, but rejects her own biological daughter in the process. (If she can't find a way to build a relationship with her own daughter, why should I believe she has any business parenting a baby?)

Now this year Quinn tries to make Shelby look like a bad parent so that she and Puck can get the kid back. (Right. Like Child Services is going to give a baby to two unmarried and unemployed high school seniors!) No thought about the resulting damage to the child, of course.

My point is the "ick factor" about each of these plot lines. They are played for laughs but, to me, they are distinctly unfunny; played as drama, they are unpleasant rather than entertaining.

GLEE needs a hard and fast "No Babies" rule.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 11/10/11 at 10:28pm

No babies and no more sex either. I feel bad for Curt and Blane. That had to be one of the most boring and tame sex scenes ever captured on film.