Opinions on "All Black" Versions of "White" Shows- Page 3

[Kad]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:27pm

I don't get Black Starz, but I do get Black Showtime and HBO (the B stands for Black).

[Kad]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:30pm

Idiot-

If there is nothing in the script that indicates the character's given circumstances that way, what does it matter? If an African American were playing a lawyer, and race is not discussed at all in the script, it doesn't matter. If the character goes on a tirade about how he was discriminated against growing up, that's a different story.

[stone_blue]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:39pm

I'm not entirely sure which side of the argument this supports, but what about Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon? Although the show definitely has themes of explicit and implicit racial conflict, the producers argued that race didn't matter specifically for the character of the Engineer. The creators took their prerogative to sidestep the historical accuracy objection by making his genealogy ambiguous, and threw in the best-talent-for-the-job rationale for good measure. But there was still uproar over a white actor playing what could (should?) have been an Asian character, or the possible rewriting of an Asian role to suit a white actor.

It is rare that white actor is cast in a role specified for another race, but that may have as much to do with supply and demand as avoidance of controversy. There are so many roles that default to white, and most non-white roles are in plays in which race is central, so the "reverse" of non-traditional casting with whites is rather moot. It's interesting that the problems are almost opposite in professional and amateur theater- in the latter, you might be more likely to see a fully white-on-white Jets/Sharks matchup than a Maria who even looks vaguely PR.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:41pm

The role Denzel Washington played in The Pelican Brief (MY FAVORITE JULIA ROBERTS FILM OF ALL TIME) was originally conceived for a white actor. And by that, I mean it was just assumed it would go to someone like Harrison Ford. But, in the end, it went to Denzel. His race was a characteristic, of course, but it was non-essential to the story, so it wasn't discussed. The movie could have worked with Ford...or John Lone...or Edward James Olmos.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:43pm

But would it have worked with Warwick Davis?

[Kad]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:43pm

The major issue about Pryce was that he wore makeup to make him look Asian- implying that, yes this is an Asian character and **** all you talented Asian actors we're casting a white man.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:44pm

Didn't he also have prosthetic in London to make his eyes look more Asian? I think those were left in London when he came over. (I see Kad beat me on this point)

But yeah, writing a role to be Asian (or half-Asian) and then casting a white person in the role seems to be counterintuitive. For what it's worth, I don't think there's ever been a non-Asian Engineer in the US after Pryce.


Updated On: 4/26/12 at 03:44 PM

[xxdrewboy85xx]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:47pm

"I'm hard pressed to think of any playwright or play that notes what race the character should be when race isn't discussed or an issue in the play"

Race isn't really discussed all that much but in Jose Rivera's Marisol, the notes suggest the Angel to be played by an African American woman, but I can't think of any references where race plays an integral part in the character.

[3bluenight]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:54pm

First, thanks to everyone for the great posts. Some really well articulated arguments have been made and my mind has been swimming all morning. (happily).

I also wanted to say that for me there are a couple of issues on the table. The philosophical and the practical.

Philosophical discussions and practical ones tend to get blurred for me on these threads. For me it is not theoretically impossible to separate the idea of ethnicity and the living of ethnicity.

I agree with the assertion that there is a larger metaculture to which we all have a duty. I think our idiosyncratic origins are extremely important (to us - to the individual) but on larger social levels there are (in my opinion) human and/or global issues that transcend an individual region, population or culture (such as global warming, nuclear warfare, international economics).

On a more esoteric level, there is - in my opinion - a human culture. Though the expression of human values may be different from region to region, culture to culture, they share many commonalities. Family, love, duty, sex, drugs, religion - they are all common themes throughout history, across cultures and ethnicities, and though the values may change, they are all different expressions of the same ideas. how do we live together? what do we do? for work? for fun? what do we believe in? how will we survive?

And let's not be naive, many cultures, civilizations and (what we would probably term now) ethnic groups that have "gone extinct" or been absorbed in a larger culture.
These definitions change.

Practically, it's a different matter. What an audience will accept and pay for is rooted in the philosophical, but can often be mitigated (and often is) by a plethora of other factors - from historical accuracy to historical awareness, to our cultural place and time, to our personal ability to be receptive to different interpretations.

[stone_blue]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:54pm

I wasn't aware of the extent of the yellowface used on Pryce, but that actually strengthens the point. They apparently wanted the character to appear Asian but cast a white actor, and then had to deal with the fallout by saying Tran van Dinh wasn't really Asian and anyway they couldn't find any Asians to fill the role.

Phyllis, thanks- that was the point I forgot to make. Giving the benefit of the doubt that the character is supposed to be ambiguously white and Asian, you still only see white actors cast in the biracial role.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 3:56pm

The original Thuy was played by a white person in London, too, right? Eeesh.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 4:03pm

I didn't see Pryce. But I did see Francis Ruvivar, who was not only terrific, but who left me thinking 'Why didn't he open the show and win a Tony?'

[Idiot]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 4:51pm

Kad said:

"If an African American were playing a lawyer, and race is not discussed at all in the script, it doesn't matter."

It doesn't matter in some ways, I agree, but in developing the character with the actor I'd be surprised if some clear choices involving race were not discussed.

[Idiot]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 4:55pm

^ Loved your input, 3bluenight. Thanks for that.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 5:35pm

Why do I feel like this discussion is always started by someone who doesn't really care about the issue and only wants to get people arguing with each other?

[allant]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 5:42pm

Some of you "Broadway Legends" or "Broadway Stars" may be more likely to know the answer to this question - does the playwright/author ever have anything to say about "non-traditional casting"? If I remember correctly, Lillian Hellman had to give her consent for the revival of her play, "The Little Foxes" with Elizabeth Taylor. I also want to say she had cast (or, at least lead) approval, but I can't be certain of that. Doesn't there have to be some kind of "clearance" before "traditional" white roles are cast with a person of color?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 5:44pm

I still want to know that the big offense to you is with the cast of the current Streetcar, that you'd be equally offended with a white Color Purple

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 5:55pm

I agree with those who say you have to know the material well to determine if it's appropriate to cast either multiracially or nontraditionally.

I will say this about "Ain't Misbehavin'." There's a reason why it won Best Musical, and it's not because it's just a well-put-together revue of Waller tunes. At its heart is a single number that can be devastating (and was in the original production). It's called "Black and Blue" and is most definitely about the African American experience. It takes all of these happy, toe-tappy, fun, clever numbers ... and says at the core, it's not all smiles, is it? "What did I do to be so black and blue? I'm white inside, but that don't mean a thing."

Sure, a group of talented white folks could sing it, but it wouldn't make any sense. Remove the song, and you take out the heart and soul of "Aint' Misbehavin'" and reduce it to just another "fun" revue.

EDIT: Here are the lyrics (excuse my paraphrased example above). To think that it was first recorded by Louis Armstrong in 1929? Wow. Incredibly powerful ...

Out in the street, shufflin' feet
Couples passin' two by two
While here am I, left high and dry
Black, and 'cause I'm black I'm blue

Browns and yellers, all have fellers
Gentlemen prefer them light
Wish I could fade, can't make the grade
Nothing but dark days in sight

Cold, empty bed, springs hard as lead
Pains in my head, feel like old Ned
What did I do to be so black and blue?

No joys for me, no company
Even the mouse ran from my house
All my life through I've been so black and blue

I'm white inside, it don't help my case
'Cause I can't hide, what is on my face, oh!

I'm so forlorn, life's just a thorn
My heart is torn, why was I born?
What did I do to be so black and blue?

'Cause you're black, folks think you lack
They laugh at you, and scorn you too
What did I do to be so black and blue?

When you are near, they laugh and sneer
Set you aside and you're denied
What did I do to be so black and blue?

How sad I am, each day I feel worse
My mark of Ham seems to be a curse, oh

How will it end? ain't got a friend
My only sin is my skin
What did I do to be so black and blue?

Updated On: 4/26/12 at 05:55 PM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 7:07pm

Did anyone see Patrick Stewart as Othello with an otherwise all black cast at The Shakespeare Theatre Co.? It's a compelling and fascinating concept.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 4/26/12 at 7:10pm

I've already indicated that I agree with Best12 about AIN'T MISBEHAVIN', but I think the issue goes beyond "Black and Blue."

"Fat and Greasy", "Honeysuckle Rose", "Lounging at the Waldorf", "Ain't Nobody's Business" and several other numbers COULD be sung by white people, but a great deal would be lost.

In MUSICAL JUBILEE, Larry Kert sang the song "Ain't Misbehavin'" as well as I've ever heard it sung. But that doesn't mean he should have starred in the show of the same name.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 4/27/12 at 12:28am

"For what it's worth, I don't think there's ever been a non-Asian Engineer in the US after Pryce."

I have heard that part of the final concession with Equity to allow Pryce to come over was that the role would only be played by an Asian actor after Pryce left the Broadway production (and this would only apply to the original Broadway production and maybe any tours based on that production/produced by Cameron Mackintosh, not to future regional production or revivals). Whether that is true or not I can't confirm, but I have heard it from several different sources.

[Kad]

Posted: 4/27/12 at 11:58am

"It doesn't matter in some ways, I agree, but in developing the character with the actor I'd be surprised if some clear choices involving race were not discussed."

Possibly. In my experience, it's really not. I can't speak for what goes on inside the minds of actors, so they could be creating some sort of backstory to get them to the right place, though.

[PattiLover]

Posted: 4/27/12 at 1:02pm

I would love to see, not necessarily "all-black", but multi ethnic productions of all the classics. Shows like Oklahoma! or The Music Man - or even Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, which are traditionally white but race isn't mentioned. Asian actors are usually relegated to lead roles in The King and I and Miss Saigon or chorus parts in 42nd Street. I'd love to see an Asian Curly, an Hispanic Harold Hill - I'd even love to see a black Nellie Forbush some day - it would give some interesting dynamics to her character.

But I would not want to see variations to the characters in A Raisin in the Sun or 1776.

[canmark]

Posted: 4/27/12 at 3:01pm

> I would love to see, not necessarily "all-black", but multi ethnic productions of all the classics. Shows like Oklahoma!

The recent well-reviewed Arena Stage production of Oklahoma! that played in Washington D.C. featured a Hispanic actor playing Curley and Black actresses playing Laurey and Aunt Eller.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/oklahoma-revival-in-d-c-generates-broadway-buzz/

http://www.arenastage.org/shows-tickets/the-season/productions/oklahoma/

Updated On: 4/27/12 at 03:01 PM