We need Caroline or Change right now.

[raddersons]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:26am

In this moment. We need it. We're witnessing the modern civil rights movement. We're beheading and toppling statues. Many people are changing, or trying to change, or trying to do better.. and some people some people... well, some people just won't. Let's hope that Caroline comes back when the pandemic is over. 

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:34am

How about a new musical or play written by black authors? Caroline or Change was written by old white people.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:57am

Oh, Jesus. How about we don’t, Cats. I love you more than my luggage but just don’t.

New works would be great but this is (and many people agree) the greatest musical of the 21st century and in SO many ways parallels exactly what’s happening right now in this country. Listening to the Epilogue the other day after hearing about the statues being taken down, it really struck me just how significant this piece would be right now.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 12:05pm

I love Caroline or Change, and I eagerly await the opportunity to see this new production.

But it wasn’t until this current movement that I realized just how many musicals about Black people were written by white people, and just how few were written by Black people.

We shouldn’t discard all the great musicals about Black people that we have, and it doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the lessons they teach. But if we’re going to have a conversation about what shows we really “need” right now, it seems to me that it would be more productive to focus our energy and attention toward nurturing Black writers.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 12:11pm

Yes but let’s not forget new musicals take years to develop so if we’re looking for something for the moment, we look to what we have. We can’t say “we need new musicals and plays to speak to this moment in time and we want this today” because that’s just now how it works. In time, we’ll have more than our share of musicals and plays written by black men and women detecting this time that we’re in. But we’re still IN this time. It’s not over yet so we’re going to have to wait a while.

And I think Tesori would take issue at being called “old”.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 12:13pm

Yes, it was technically written by a bunch of old white folks, but it's pretty widely known that George C. Wolfe and Hope Clarke, as well as Tonya Pinkins and a lot of the other cast, were very instrumental in developing the text through the rehearsal process.  So this certainly was not a case of some white folks sitting down and writing a musical about the black experience with zero input from folks who actually lived through it.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 12:13pm

^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 12:47pm

Jordan Catalano said: "Yes but let’s not forget new musicals take years to develop so if we’re looking for something for the moment, we look to what we have. We can’t say “we need new musicals and plays to speak to this moment in time and we want this today” because that’s just now how it works. In time, we’ll have more than our share of musicals and plays written by black men and women detecting this time that we’re in. But we’re still IN this time. It’s not over yet so we’re going to have to wait a while."

 

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. At least for musicals - because we do have dozens to hundreds of plays by Black people that are already in the canon, speak to the current time (because, we all well know, the problems of the "current time" have been going on for a while). 

Although, I also imagine that a lot of Black musical theatre writers have already written shows that have yet to be produced. Maybe even some that have already had a partial development process. So those shows can be picked up and put on the track to getting full-productions in the near future. But you're right that it would still take more development time. 

 

Updated On: 6/11/20 at 12:47 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 12:57pm

Firstly I take offense to the "old" white folks comment. And not because of race. They were in their early to mid 40's when it was written. Nowhere near "old".

Also, the show was written (book and lyrics)  by Kushner based on his childhood. And also everything Broadway61004 and Jordan pointed out.

Yes, it would be nice to see shows by and performed by black actors but, as a black person, that is not the only view of black life I have to see and shows about black people do not always have to be written by black people if the white writer has a connection to the story. Kushner lived what he wrote and he was dead on. My mother cleaned houses for both black and white families. I walked out of that theater emotionally moved because I had just seen part of my life portrayed on that stage.

So those "old white people" wrote about what they, and a lot of us, know and lived through. 

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 1:39pm

JBroadway said: "Jordan Catalano said: "Yes but let’s not forget new musicals take years to develop so if we’re looking for something for the moment, we look to what we have. We can’t say “we need new musicals and plays to speak to this moment in time and we want this today” because that’s just now how it works. In time, we’ll have more than our share of musicals and plays written by black men and women detecting this time that we’re in. But we’re still IN this time. It’s not over yet so we’re going to have to wait a while."
That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. At least for musicals - becausewe dohave dozens to hundredsof plays by Black people that are already in the canon, speak to the current time(because, we all well know, the problems of the "current time" have been going on for a while).

Although, I also imagine that a lot of Black musical theatre writers have already written shows that have yet to be produced. Maybe even some that have already had a partial development process. So those shows can be picked up and put on the track to getting full-productions in the near future. But you're right that it would still take more development time.

"

As much as I loved it, I didn't think A Strange Loop was right for Broadway. But after the Pulitzer Prize win, I wonder if some producer is trying to fast track it now. Bella from the same theater might be too irreverent but it's also a possibility. Little Rock at the Sheen Center was not very good. I'd be interested in seeing Black Light with Jomama Jones again but it's not a Broadway show. The Secret Life of Bees doesn't count with its mostly white creative team.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 1:52pm

Written by old white folks? That is exactly the type of talk we do not need now- how about stating an opinion without maligning other races? I find racism- whenever I see it- repugnant- and I do not believe that the tone of the post was innocent and just stating the fact- let's not forget that White Christmas was written by a Jew- and that makes no difference- if people truly want justice- this race war crap has to stop!

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 2:06pm

I'm looking forward to seeing it next year, it's a very special show. 

[broadwayboy223]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 2:29pm

Broadway61004 said: "Yes, it was technically written by a bunch of old white folks, but it's pretty widely known that George C. Wolfe and Hope Clarke, as well as Tonya Pinkins and a lot of the other cast, were very instrumental in developing the text through the rehearsal process. So this certainly was not a case of some white folks sitting down and writing a musical about the black experience with zero input from folks who actually lived through it."

This is 100% correct. George C. Wolfe and Tonya were involved with the project when it was just a script and no music. She created the role of Caroline nearly in conjunction with the authors. 

[LaneBryant]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 9:45pm

Broadway61004 said: "Yes, it was technically written by a bunch of old white folks, but it's pretty widely known that George C. Wolfe and Hope Clarke, as well as Tonya Pinkins and a lot of the other cast, were very instrumental in developing the text through the rehearsal process. So this certainly was not a case of some white folks sitting down and writing a musical about the black experience with zero input from folks who actually lived through it."

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. I wonder how much they got paid extra for their intellectual property. Is Tonya credited and paid for her contribution? Did that cast have to fight for points? Too many times we see white people halfway write a Black story, knowing that the Black artists will show up and do the rest, add the actual culture and texture that they could only dream of. God save us. 

 

[uncageg]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 10:15pm

LaneBryant said: "Broadway61004 said: "Yes, it was technically written by a bunch of old white folks, but it's pretty widely known that George C. Wolfe and Hope Clarke, as well as Tonya Pinkins and a lot of the other cast, were very instrumental in developing the text through the rehearsal process. So this certainly was not a case of some white folks sitting down and writing a musical about the black experience with zero input from folks who actually lived through it."

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. I wonder how much they got paid extra for their intellectual property. Is Tonya credited and paid for her contribution? Did that cast have to fight for points?Too many times we see white people halfway write a Black story, knowing that the Black artists will show up and do the rest, add the actual culture and texture that they could only dream of. God save us."

Oh lord Jesus and then you would probably be upset if it came out that they were not allowed to have any input.

It was Kushner's life he was writing about. I am sure he was getting input from them to make sure he was getting things right. He could write what he experienced but it only makes sense that he get input from the people playing the parts as to their feelings or experiences for their performances and direction.  And the cast was not all black. Calm down! It happens with other shows that are not about black people. 

 

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 10:32pm

Thank you. Seriously, the need to find SOMETHING to be outraged over is getting ridiculous around here.

There’s plenty of actual injustices going on in the world for you to direct your anger towards.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:06pm

LaneBryant said: "Broadway61004 said: "Yes, it was technically written by a bunch of old white folks, but it's pretty widely known that George C. Wolfe and Hope Clarke, as well as Tonya Pinkins and a lot of the other cast, were very instrumental in developing the text through the rehearsal process. So this certainly was not a case of some white folks sitting down and writing a musical about the black experience with zero input from folks who actually lived through it."

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. I wonder how much they got paid extra for their intellectual property. Is Tonya credited and paid for her contribution? Did that cast have to fight for points?Too many times we see white people halfway write a Black story, knowing that the Black artists will show up and do the rest, add the actual culture and texture that they could only dream of. God save us.

"

They got paid the exact same amount as Hal Prince and Angela Lansbury got for Sweeney Todd. And Michael Grief and Adam Pascal got for Rent. And Susan Stroman and Nathan Lane got for The Producers. It's called developing a new musical and that's how it works.

[JaglinSays]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 2:11am

Wait are you saying only white writers can write about white characters & black writers about black characters?  That is...absurd.

[latitudex1]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 2:36am

JaglinSays said: "Wait are you saying only white writers can write about white characters & black writers about black characters? Thatis...absurd."

No, they were attempting to say that black voices should be lifted at this moment, and noting that most American folk musicals and musicals written for black performers on Broadway were written by white artists.

 

It was an observation on their part. Whether is is right or wrong can be an interesting topic of learning and discussion, but your question and it's positioning pulls the topic into a place it had no intention of going.

[binau]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 5:36am

A show like Caroline, or Change needs to have been informed by black voices and given the quality of the content and people involved I’m quite sure it did. Open to genuine, thoughtful criticism of how the show might have been improved with more input but my fear is that so-called woke people will criticise and reject this show without fully understanding the context or even paying close attention to the details of the show, and in doing so while they might have good intentions they will ironically be hurting their own cause.

I’m wonder if recent events could actually turn this show into a bonafide hit. It is one of, if not the most complex musical I have ever seen in my opinion with so many different layers running through it and the characters. It makes Hamilton look like Heathers.

[raddersons]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 10:00am

Broadway61004 said: "LaneBryant said: "
AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. I wonder how much they got paid extra for their intellectual property. Is Tonya credited and paid for her contribution? Did that cast have to fight for points?Too many times we see white people halfway write a Black story, knowing that the Black artists will show up and do the rest, add the actual culture and texture that they could only dream of. God save us.

"They got paid the exact same amount as Hal Prince and Angela Lansbury got for Sweeney Todd. And Michael Grief and Adam Pascal got for Rent. And Susan Stroman and Nathan Lane got for The Producers. It's called developing a new musical and that's how it works."

I do think "going back to the status quo" isn't quite good enough. 

JBroadway said: "I love Caroline or Change, and I eagerly await the opportunity to see this new production.

But it wasn’t until this current movement that I realized just how many musicals about Black people were written by white people, and just how few were written by Black people.

We shouldn’t discard all the great musicals about Black people that we have, and it doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the lessons they teach. But if we’re going to have a conversation about what shows we really “need” right now, it seems to me that it would be more productive to focus our energy and attention toward nurturing Black writers."

I absolutely agree, but it is still a black story that has input from black actors. It may be easy for some to criticize as "the show where a black woman in the south is resistant to the civil rights movement" which screams a huge "yikes" on paper... but honestly it is a LOT more complex than that. Reducing it to a sentence misses all of the nuance -- this is the problem with 99% of Twitter.

Why not both?