Bareback Mountain- Page 3

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:00pm

I never heard Hedwig lauded as the most important film for and about East German transsexual punk rock singers.

[Luscious]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:02pm

Oh for Christ's sake, I wasn't comparing the Holocaust to the events in Brokeback Mountain. What I was saying (for the common sense challenged) is that a movie depicting a negative event or period in history is not necessarily an endorsement of said event. In fact, its purpose is usually quite the opposite.

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:02pm

Well it was implied, what with it being the ONLY ONE and all, Kringas.

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:03pm

I wonder what the East German transsexual punk rocker word on the street was about that movie. I thought it was good.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:06pm

The word amongst gay cowboys of Wyoming has been very good, too, Kringas. I can refer you to a New York Times article, if you'd like.

Updated On: 1/6/06 at 08:06 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:09pm

Well, I'll agree that I think BM is important for advancing the cause of gay cowboys in Wyominig.

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:10pm

Then can you also agree you're being a dick?

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:15pm

How? I was merely pointing out that the hyperbole surrounding BM seems to focus on its vast importance and trying to put the films brought in to support that argument in context. If you really and truly think that I'm being a dick, so be it.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:16pm

And rednecks in Texas
And black guys in Brooklyn or Compton
And Greek boys in Queens
And Puerto Ricans in The Bronx
And Mexicans in Arizona
And Mormons in Utah
ETC ETC ETC ETC

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:16pm

I'm tired and grumpy which explains why I think that. I was becoming so fond of you too, especially as we have the same taste in PJ trousers.

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:18pm

Ah, PCB, you wish you knew how to quit me.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:20pm

I'm glad someone's looking out for those gay Marlboro men, 'cause goodness knows the queer community hasn't been.

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:22pm

The hyperbole around Brokeback is something that's been foisted upon it though. I don't think they set out to make an "important" film, which is why the backlash has come about.

[Kringas]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:27pm

That's a very good point and one in which you and I are in complete agreement. It becomes difficult to separate the forest from the trees at times. I maintain, though, that apart from all hyperbole, the movie was mediocre at best. I found the leads bland, the direction mostly uninspired, and nary a single female character that had any depth.

[vbplayer]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 8:53pm

Well, it's significant enough to keep people debating about it. I'll say that much. I thought it was an excellent film (key word: film).

Posted: 1/6/06 at 11:28pm

Thanks to everyone who complimented my "other" posts, before I forget.....

If "BM" were the only film that showed the "gayer" character getting killed or the only possible happiness for a gay character was his vestigal heterosexuality, it wouldn't have bothered me, but the plain fact is, this is another film where the gays get punished and the closet is celebrated.

Frankly I can't even pretend to see a comparison to Schindler's List and if I were Jewish I'd probably on the side of the outraged. As has been pointed out, this is a work of fiction. the writer and filmmaker could have told any story they wanted. They chose to tell a story that includes men living in the closet, lying to their wives, gay men getting killed and the perpertrators getting away with it-- which is of course their prerogative. But-- I'll be damned if I celebrate it as a step forward for the gay community.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 1/6/06 at 11:42pm

I don't see how BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN "celebrates" staying in the closet; seems the opposite to me. As Auggie pointed out, the theme of the story seems to be the devestating consequences of not being true to one's nature. Both protagonists live wasted lives because they let go of a good thing.

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

If this is about Jack getting killed, I think it's pretty ambiguous in the movie (as it is in the short story) how he died. The only thing we're sure of is that Ennis suspects it was a hate crime, a fear stemming from his own childhood traumas. The audience is left to interpret it for themselves.

Updated On: 1/6/06 at 11:42 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 12:03am

At some point one half of the board is just going to have to agree to disagree with the other half of the board. Because I couldn't disagree with these sentiments anymore.

And if any people of Jewish faith have a problem with comparison in the thread, they can come chat with me. I'm not going to play the PC game just because you want to win your point of view.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 4:16am

JoeKv is making a big mistake in seeing this film as a 1950s gays are punished movie, whereas in fact it displays the relationship between two men in only the most positive and respectful manner. No one is the winner in this film, and certainly not Ennis, who has lost the love of his life because he stayed resolutely closted.

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 4:45am

I'm with BlueWizard and elsgr8 here. The film absolutely does not celebrate staying in the closet. Quite the opposite. And please don't forget that the film opens in 1963 and covers a little over 20 years. So people who call this film reductive and a throwback are missing the point. I doubt this film wanted to be used as a political weapon and I seriously doubt they set out to speak for every gay on the planet. This is being projected on to the film by all sides so it's no wonder it's buckling under the strain.

As for the film being uninspired and shallow, again I do not agree at all. I think it was a masterpiece of understatement. To say that the women had no depth to them is crazy to me, especially in the case of Alma. Michelle Williams is devastatingly brilliant at showing just how much she's bottling up. See, it wasn't only the men who couldn't talk about being gay in the movie.

And here's a little nugget of info for everyone getting so disgusted that a movie in 2005 could depict a hate crime murder in rural America in 1983. Matthew Shepherd was murdered in the US's worst gay hate crime in 1998. In Wyoming.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:52am

'rate the film on 3 levels, and I hope the rest of you can to:

1. As I feel about it as a gay man--the personal stuff that is probably unfair to place on the film's shoulders

2. As how I rate the film strictly artistically

3. As I feel the film fits into the politically landscape '

I think that's a great way to view this film...I just want to point out that it's possible to rate all of these things and still have a completely different opinion about them than most others. Much of what some of us are reacting to is not the films itself (although I still don't think it was particularly well made...too schematic for me...though pretty terrific performances), but the reaction to the film and the very real pressure some have been getting from others. Being told I'm heartless because I didn't like the movie is truly insulting. To say that, politically, I think the film isn't the huge step forward because it shows characters that are still victims...people to be pitied, instead of characters with strength...is being reacted to as if it's a heretical treatise. The fact that someone is killed in a gay bashing doesn't bother me in the least...the fact that both characters are weak bothers me.

As Jerby said, 'All art is political.' So, I really do think it's either naive or disingenuous to claim that these people had NO thought of politics in their minds while making this movie. Lee (and everyone else involved) is too smart to think this film wouldn't be used politically.

Because of what I perceive to be the artistic failing of this film (too schematic), I never felt the real, true love bond between these two men. I would have loved a scene of true intimacy...meaning hand-holding or something similarly simple, but powerful. But I never felt like I got that. Which would be fine, IF there were many more representations of gay men and women who do share that intimacy. That's the whole problem...we don't have the negative (in photographic terms) image of this movie out there as well. Everyone compares it to great doomed love stories like R&J and TITANIC and LOVE STORY. But the problem with that is, for every one of those, there's a WHEN HARRY MET SALLY, PRETTY WOMAN and WHAT'S UP, DOC?...delicious romantic comedies that give us another view of love and relationships. They exist together. Right now, BBM exists in a vacuum (sp?). It's THE representation of gay love to mainstream America.

Yes...I live in hope that it will change and BBM will soon co-exist w/ thrillers, romantic comedies, family movies and actions movies that prominently feature gay lead characters. And I'm grateful for this film's ability to spark a discussion. THAT is it's importance. The film will not change many hearts and minds. But honest discussion that comes about because of it may very well.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 12:06pm

I think that to say it's celebrating being in the closet is taking it too extremely at face value. A movie doesn't always celebrate that which transpires in its story. Its characters are in the closet, yes, but that certainly -- IMO, anyway -- doesn't mean the movie stands as a piece saying what happens to them is right. I think you've got to read further into it than that... than to see what goes on and think that that's all that's being said. If that were the case -- if every movie was taken so at face value -- considering all of the movies that take place in different periods and places, etc, damn, everything would be terribly controversial. Imagine how many historical movies would have to be considered racist or sexist or something-ist, just because they're about a time when things were different.

Yikes. Sorry for the poor wording.

Updated On: 1/7/06 at 12:06 PM

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 12:11pm

Well put, BlueWizard

SPOILER ALERT

We never know if the image of Jack being murdered is a real image, or Ennis' vision brought on by the guilt. Throughout the film, Ennis denies a life with Jack in fear of violence. In the end, he realizes that he may have been able to protect Jack from the violence had they had a life together. Jack may have never been in that situation had Ennis been with him. Instead, Jack starts a life with another man who may have not been able to protect him the way Ennis could have.


Updated On: 1/7/06 at 12:11 PM

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 12:19pm

RobbieJ, that's the most eloquent you've spoken about the film since all of this debate began and is your clearest stance yet. THAT post explains your position and opinion much better and sounds as if you thought about it and didn't just "not like" it. And I appreciate reading about it.
And I, like you, do look forward to the day when gay leads are present in every facet of American film, not just as the sassy sidekick or the character who gets knocked off in order to be pitied.
But, at this point, we have what we have. And, despite everyone's insistence this isn't the norm in gay America, I assure you, there are FAR more Ennis and Jack relationships in America as a whole than there are Armands and Alberts. The vast majority of cities in the US are intolerant towards a gay lifestyle even as acceptance does slowly climb. I just got off the phone with a friend. One of our dearest friends is 100% gay. He was married. To a woman. He cheated on her with a guy, got divorced, went through gay rehabilitation and is now married. To a woman.
And the fact that this is STILL encouraged is just beyond my ability to comprehend. And that's why a film like BBM will remain important to me in this fight. I think mainstream America needs to see more BBMs before they see more Birdcages, with happy drag queens locking lips with their butch partners.

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/7/06 at 12:23pm

Kringas --- one thing you keep bringing up that seems to be your primary objection to the film is that you're being "forced" to accept it as brilliant or Oscar-worthy.

Is the film itself doing this, or the media and PR "spinning machines?" Seems to me, if you're feeling force-fed you're blaming the wrong thing.

The film is what it is. You can like it, or not. It isn't forcing you to do anything.

I believe that the reaction to it is what has soured your experience, though. But honestly... Nobody in the gay community is demanding that you love and embrace this film. I'm sorry your having such an "allergic reaction" to it, but think it's due to many other things that have nothing to do with the film itself. Judge it on its own merit (or lack of it), and don't let the rest of the circus cloud your perception. There's a lot more playing into the spinning than "noble causes." This is Oscar season, and there are awards to be won and money to be made. Don't forget it plays into all of this heavily.

And two other notes:
1) My comparison to Schindler's List wasn't meant to offend anyone. My father is Jewish. He grew up in New Rochelle. While he wasn't in a concentration camp... He was held at gunpoint at the age of seven by his Nazi-sympathizing chauffeur for over an hour before being released. It scarred him and haunted him for life. I understand, in a small way, perhaps more than many of you do, the direct affects of the Holocaust.

2) While Brokeback's story is fictional, the persecution and guilt these characters faced is realized every day by countless individuals.