CHICKEN & BISCUITS Previews- Page 6

[ShowBro]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:13pm

Sutton Ross said: ""You can't be serious. More than 90% of Jewish people in the US identify as white non Hispanic. Urie is as white as it gets"

“triggered that Micheal wasn't ACKNOWLEDGED in a Black play is so pathetic and the exact definition of white male fragility.”

Amen!

 

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 08:13 PM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:27pm

@showbro, i'm not, and certainly don't identify as, White, if that matters at all to you (it clearly doesn't). but it is what it is. 

[gibsons2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:33pm

JDonaghy4 said: "ShowBro said: "Zion24 said: "well, nothing, because the writer wrote what he wanted to authentically write, but i know alot of Jews would admit they've benefitted from being "White" in American culture, but are very cognizant that they aren't "White" according to many White folk. Lumping a Jewish person in with the regular ole White culture (which is what this play does- innocently!) raises some flags for some people. I wouldn't want the writer to change a thing but I would have appreciated some acknowledgment that Logan himself is his own minority (twice over)."

Sorry, but Urie (Jewish or not) is as white as they come dahling, and I think that was the whole point of the character - the stereotypical gay white boi."

again, the ease with which you are declaring that a White Jewish person is "White" is what I am getting at. Yes the character was the stereotypical gay white boi, but he was also explicitly clarified as being Jewish. The play isnt about him, I get that, but I'm surprised how many here are so quick to conflate being an American Jew with being White- something pre-Trump I probably did as well, but have become more cognizant of over the past 5 years. I can tell you that many, many young Jews of Ashkenazi origin would chafe at being called "White" given their experiences in this country. The notion that Judaism has no ethnic/racial component is incredibly regressive (and mildly insulting, though I doubt you intended it that way).

"

What's insulting and regressive is that you're implying that white Jewish people choose whether to consider themselves white or Jewish (which is a religion) depending on who won the election and geography. Black and brown people don't have the privilege of passing for someone they are not. Think about what you wrote.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:33pm

WORD

[IHeartNY2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:38pm

I had a GREAT time! But (not sure if someone mentioned already) take note that Telecharge lists "1h40" as a running time but it was a little more than 2 hrs.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:41pm

gibsons2 said: "

"

What's insulting and regressive is that you're implying that white Jewish people choose whether to consider themselves white or Jewish (which is a religion) depending on who won the election and geography. Black and brown people don't have the privilege of passing for someone they are not. Think about what you wrote."

Nope, not even a little bit. No one gets to choose whether they are White (thats the point), and no one is comparing the experiences of American Jews with African Americans. You seem to be conflating "Jews aren't White" with "Jews shared the same experiences as Black Americans" which is just not remotely something I said or would ever say. If you shift the focus away from that comparison, the question of where the Jew fits in terms of White society (here, and in other cultures) is not so simple, and certainly not something to be swept aside with these wildly ignorant and insensitive pronouncements.

And Judaism is NOT just a religion (as defined by, you know, geneticists, and Jews, and the people who persecute Jews regardless of whether they are religious or not) but that seems like a topic wayyyy too complicated for these parts, and certainly not one I intended to discuss here by saying i cringed when the Jew in the play was also the White in the play.  

I'm good with what I wrote, thanks.

[gibsons2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 8:46pm

JDonaghy4 said: "gibsons2 said: "

"

What's insulting and regressive is that you're implying that white Jewish people choose whether to consider themselves white or Jewish (which is a religion) depending on who won the election and geography. Black and brown people don't have the privilege of passing for someone they are not. Think about what you wrote."

Nope, not even a little bit. No one gets to choose whether they are White (thats the point), and no one is comparing the experiences of American Jews with African Americans. You seem to be conflating "Jews aren't White" with "Jews shared the same experiences as Black Americans" which is just not remotely something I said or would ever say. If you shift the focus away from that comparison, the question of where the Jew fits in terms of White society (here, and in other cultures) is not so simple, and certainly not something to be swept aside with these wildly ignorant and insensitive pronouncements.

And Judaism is NOT just a religion (as defined by, you know, geneticists, and Jews, and the people who persecute Jews regardless of whether they are religious or not) but that seems like a topic wayyyy too complicated for these parts, and certainly not one I intended to discuss here by saying i cringed when the Jew in the play was also the White in the play.

I'm good with what I wrote, thanks."

You are insufferable, "Rachel Dolezal". 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 9:13pm

i expect this from the usual suspects but are you really comfortable suggesting that I am pretending to be some sort of racial makeup that I'm not? Suggesting I am not sufficiently (insert whatever ethnicity you think you are denying me here, cuz I sure dont know) is a special kinda wow. and i guess my cue to wave my white flag and surrender to the ugliness. 

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 9:35pm

Zion24 isn't raising a new issue. Many Jews (rightly or wrongly) don't consider themselves "white" and many racists and anti-semites don't consider Jews "white" either. Being "Jewish" for almost all Jews is a cultural identity before it is a religious one. Many, many American Jews don't identify as religious at all. This is not a radical idea. You can disagree with these notions but you REALLY sound like you don't know what you're talking about. At least I hope you don't know what you're talking about because if you are aware of the history of these issues you're being quite offensive. 

You can start here:  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/are-jews-white/509453/

[gibsons2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 9:58pm

KJisgroovy said: "Zion24 isn't raising a new issue. Many Jews (rightly or wrongly) don't consider themselves "white" and many racists and anti-semites don't consider Jews "white" either. Being "Jewish" for almostall Jews is a cultural identity before it is a religious one. Many, many American Jews don't identify as religious at all.This is not a radical idea. You can disagree with these notions but you REALLY sound like you don't know what you're talking about. At least I hope you don't know what you're talking about because if you are aware of the history of these issues you're being quite offensive.

You can start here: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/are-jews-white/509453/"

We aren't talking about cultural differences right now, are we? I'm well aware about the history of this issues, no need to copy paste articles from google. Zion24 took offense that Michigan Urie has been repeatedly called in the play what he is in the eyes of absolutely everyone who looks at him: a white guy. And being offended by this is absurd.

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 09:58 PM

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:02pm

"What's insulting and regressive is that you're implying that white Jewish people choose whether to consider themselves white or Jewish (which is a religion)"

Based on this comment it actually seemed like you weren't aware of "this issues" and it did, in fact, seem like YOU were talking about cultural differences. I think I was fair in my comments, you don't need to insult my intelligence. If you felt like I insulted yours I'm genuinely sorry--you actually seemed to not be aware of some of the points Zion was making regarding culture/religion.  

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 10:02 PM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:08pm

gibsons2 said: "

We aren't talking about cultural differences right now, are we? I'm well aware about the history of this issues, no need to copy paste articles from google. Zion24 took offense that Michigan Urie has been repeatedly called in the play what he is in the eyes of absolutely everyone who looks at him: a white guy. And being offended by this is absurd."

I didn't take offense at anything. I said I cringed at something, and repeatedly made the point that I understood why the playwright wrote this the way he did. Someone ASKED me what it was I was suggesting could be done differently, and in that answer i again said I wasn't suggesting it be written differently. So you've decided i was offended by something I wasn't, felt the need to tell me what I am wrong to have been allegedly offended, and in the process you've disregarded the discussion about Jewish ethnic identity, insulted me repeatedly, and generally acted like the notion that Jewish people are not-White (either because they identify that way, or because, you know, for thousands of years White people insisted they weren't) is an insane one. You're out your depth, and thats OK, but no need to get testy about it. 

and im not sure why people keep using Michael Urie here instead of his character- i cringed because Logan Leibowitz is on the one hand pointedly Jewish, and on the other is treated (by the playwright, understandably) as The White Guy. Urie did a bang up job and of course no one is suggesting he isnt White. Its the character's Otherness that is mentioned but then ignored that caught my attention. Its fascinating how such a pretty innocuous comment brings out this kinda crazy. 


(and yes thats the Emma Green article I was referring to, but even that article presumes a level of understanding that is way over the heads of some of whats been bandied about here.)

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 10:08 PM

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:31pm

Zion - as a white, gay, agnostic, cis male, I just want to thank you for your thoughtful, honest review. It was informative and educational. I’m sorry it’s devolved the way it has. It must be exhausting for you & KJ (if I’m reading correctly) to feel like you have to defend yourselves constantly.

[YvanEhtNioj]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:34pm

Miles2Go2 said: "Zion - as a white, gay, agnostic, cis male, I just want to thank you for your thoughtful, honest review. It was informative and educational. I’m sorry it’s devolved the way it has. It must be exhausting for you & KJ (if I’m reading correctly) to feel like you have to defend yourselves constantly. "

I feel like a white man giving another white man a coddle feels inappropriate. Especially since they’re just being dramatic about a white boy being called white. 

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 10:34 PM

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:44pm

GOODNESS GRACIOUS. Only Gibsons is being dramatic. No one is even all that offended by the play itself (WHICH I HAVE NOT SEEN). Taking issue with the fact that Jews have not been considered "white" through huge swaths of history and that Judaism is a cultural designation and not merely a religious one is not a tenable stance. I was just to point out that this is not a new argument and that denying this history is misguided at best and offensive at worst. 

This has honestly devolved into something really ugly. 
 

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 10:44 PM

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:48pm

Zion has already stated that they are non-white. It’s not cool to misgender people. It’s also not cool to continue to label them as a race they have told you they are not.

[YvanEhtNioj]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:52pm

I must’ve missed that.

Regardless, The “CriNgE” comment is very stupid. And they don’t need to be coddled right now.

[gibsons2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:52pm

KJisgroovy said: "GOODNESS GRACIOUS. Only Gibsons is being dramatic. No one is even all that offended by the play itself (WHICH I HAVE NOT SEEN). Taking issue with the fact that Jews have not been considered "white" through huge swaths of history and that Judaism is a cultural designation and not merely a religious one is not a tenable stance. I was just to point out that this is not a new argument and that denying this history is misguided at best and offensive at worst.

This has honestly devolved into something really ugly.
"

Calling out someone's bs is not ugly and I'm being very polite

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 10:52 PM

[YvanEhtNioj]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:54pm

gibsons2 said:

Calling out someone's bs is not ugly."

 

Exactly  it’s giving me micro aggression vibes  

 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 10:55pm

100%

[gibsons2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 11:02pm

Miles2Go2 said: "Zion has already stated that they are non-white. It’s not cool to misgender people. It’s also not cool to continue to label them as a race they have told you they are not. "

I think you've missed the point of this conversation.  Nobody's arguing Zions race identity. The argument is about the offence Zion took when Michael Urie/Logan Leibowitz was identified as a "white guy" by the play's playwright.

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 11:02 PM

[Theater3232]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 11:13pm

Do they actually say "White Boy" in this play, or write that as the name of a character??? 

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 11:13 PM

[gibsons2]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 11:19pm

Theater3232 said: "Do they actually say "White Boy" in this play, or write that as the name of a character???"

My mistake, he was referred to as "white guy" several times, however his boyfriend Kenny stressed out several times that his name is Logan

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 11:19 PM

[ShowBro]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 11:22pm

YvanEhtNioj said: "I must’ve missed that.

Regardless, The “CriNgE” comment is very stupid. And they don’t need to be coddled right now. "

Yes, it was that silly “cringe” comment that I wanted him to further expound upon. *In the context of the play*, which I know many of you have not seen yet, Urie aka Logan is just the gay “WHITE BOY”. And that is on period. 

Updated On: 10/3/21 at 11:22 PM

[RippedMan]

Posted: 10/3/21 at 11:22pm

It is interesting that given the past year, we are now using the "white gay" as a stock character. Even though that's what we're fighting against? putting people in boxes? But yet here we are? Hm. So much for progress.