Composers who aren't great musicians?
Composers who aren't great musicians?
Alex Kulak2
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/11/16
#1Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 11:21am
What are some examples of musical theatre composers who aren't very musically proficient? Some examples I can think of:
1. Richard O'Brien (Rocky Horror): Admits he's not a great musician, which he claims suits his style of writing fun, uncomplicated songs
2. Lin-Manuel Miranda (Hamilton): His demos for songs are usually made from rap beat software, rather than recording himself playing the piano
3. Lionel Bart (Oliver!): He never learned how to read or write music, so he would hum the melodies to the orchestrator, who would transcribe it into musical notation.
#2Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 11:24am
Alex Kulak2 said: "2. Lin-Manuel Miranda (Hamilton): His demos for songs are usually made from rap beat software, rather than recording himself playing the piano"
Is rapping over a beat non-musical? I mean, that is often the end result of what he is doing...
#3Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 11:38am
Mel Brooks, the most famous I can think of who fits this criteria.
#4Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 11:39am
i think they mean he's not proficient at playing any instruments
trpguyy
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/25/05
#5Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 12:06pm
I don't believe a lack of proficiency in playing an instrument or reading/writing notated music disqualifies someone from being a "great musician." I contend that anyone who is capable of composing a musical, especially one with commercial success, is a great musician.
trpguyy
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/25/05
#6Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 12:10pm
But to continue on the spirit of the original examples:
Irving Berlin did not learn to read music, and only played piano in the key of F# (on the black keys). He had a special transposing piano, where the action is moveable, so that he could play what he wanted on the black keys and it would sound in the desired key.
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#7Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 12:39pm
Definitely think the op meant not a great instrumentalist.
ILuv2shop531
Broadway Star Joined: 7/12/07
#8Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 1:48pm
Bob Merrill famously was known to not be able to read music or play an instrument and would compose his music on a child's Xylophone!
Dollypop
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/15/03
#9Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 5:10pm
Irving Berlin's transposing piano is kept in a alcove in the ASAP offices on W 64th Street
#10Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/5/17 at 6:27pm
Does it really matter? I don't think so. It's all about the end product.
#11Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/6/17 at 10:32am
How fascinating.
ahhrealmonsters
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/11/10
#12Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/6/17 at 12:24pm
It doesn't matter, per se, but it's interesting. In programs like BMI and NYU, composers need to notate their music. I've worked with composers who notate but are not the best pianists, and they can't play their own accompaniments. There are composers who do not notate, and they generally record themselves singing the parts for someone else to transcribe. The one time I tried to compose, I hired someone to transcribe the vocal line and arrange the piano part. I have some friends composer friends who don't notate, but it doesn't seem to be super common, especially in the BMI & NYU worlds.
#13Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/6/17 at 5:42pm
It matters if you are a lyricist trying to work with the composer in question. This isn't to say some don't hum nice melodies into their tape recorders, but try getting even a simple change from one of them. In my experience, it can be very frustrating.
No different, really, from a playwright or lyricist who can't spell or type. (This is a facetious remark. Of course, everybody can write or type to some extent.)
#15Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/6/17 at 8:20pm
Wait, what? Paul McCartney, are you serious? The guy plays bass, guitar, piano, and God knows what else, and was inventing chords back in the '60s that didn't even exist at the time. What criteria are you using to call someone a "great musician"?
For my contribution, I'll submit William Finn. Love his music to death, but he's kind of a clunky piano player. His team of arrangers and orchestrators help flesh out his music, and we're all better for it.
#16Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/6/17 at 8:28pm
Paul McCartney famously can't read or write music - which is not to say he's not a great musician.
#17Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/7/17 at 12:10pm
Harvey Schmidt can't read music.
#18Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/7/17 at 1:29pm
"Paul McCartney famously can't read or write music - which is not to say he's not a great musician."
Ha, okay. Looks like we really should have defined our terms when this thread was started; everybody's idea of what makes a great musician is different. 
#19Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/7/17 at 1:52pm
Doesn't Wildhorn need a team of arrangers for his musicals? I recall someone saying that he is greatly helped in the structure department.
Same for Lucy Simon - didn't Tesori really help her with motifs and other arrangement stuff? I wouldn't be surprised if a few melodies in Secret Garden were Tesori's work.
Unknown User
Joined: 12/31/69
#20Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/8/17 at 12:45am
Luciano Pavarotti couldn't read music, but there is no debate he was one of the greatest opera singers ever.
I was lucky enough to see him live at the Met -- I forget which opera it was, but it's one where there's a party scene in the first act where someone sings a song -- I guess you'd call it a cameo part. That night rumor had it that Pavarotti was going to be the party singer, and sure enough, he was.
What a treat it was to hear his voice -- part of a huge cast of all technically proficient singers -- but his voice soared above them all. He was born with a gift, that's for sure.
I wonder if great singers like that who learn parts by ear have an advantage over all the singers who learn by studying the score?
RippedMan
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/14/05
#21Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/8/17 at 1:23am
Obviously I'm not accomplished, but I technically can "read" music, but I learn better from just someone playing the song, and then me singing it. Actually happy to hear that so many successful people are the same way.
Liza's Headband
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/28/13
#22Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/8/17 at 10:20am
There's a legendary film composer who famously cannot write music; he sings/hums melodies out and a music assistant transcribes them. I cannot seem to recall who that is.
JennH
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/14/13
#23Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/8/17 at 11:53am
christinelavin said: "Luciano Pavarotti couldn't read music, but there is no debate he was one of the greatest opera singers ever.
I was lucky enough to see him live at the Met -- I forget which opera it was, but it's one where there's a party scene in the first act where someone sings a song -- I guess you'd call it a cameo part. That night rumor had it that Pavarotti was going to be the party singer, and sure enough, he was.
What a treat it was to hear his voice -- part of a huge cast of all technically proficient singers -- but his voice soared above them all. He was born with a gift, that's for sure.
I wonder if great singers like that wholearn parts by ear have an advantage over all the singers who learn by studying the score?
"
WHAT NOW....the most well know opera singer known to mankind couldn't read music?? If this is true, I'm scarred for life...plus might as well quit my own career.
Liza-for whatever reason, why do I recall it being John Williams? I swear I've heard this somewhere, but I could be completely off my rocker.
I also believe JRB doesn't read, he also just has someone transcribe what's in his head. Which actually would explain a lot as, even thought he "writes" some pretty great songs, they make no musically functional sense.
I'll be honest in saying I have zilch patience nor a lot of respect for those in the biz who don't read music. Why on gods green earth wouldn't you do yourself as well as everyone around you, that favor? It not only wastes your own time in taking much longer than necessary to learn your stuff and if your working with anyone who does, it wastes their time as well. I almost couldnt care less how good someone is, if they don't read, it shows they didn't take the time and care to learn their own profession. I legit can't think of any other occupation in which not knowing your own profession is acceptable. Sorry, y'all had to get that off my chest. I've just come across this way too often lately and it drives me bananas.
sweeneytodd2
Featured Actor Joined: 10/28/04
#24Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/8/17 at 11:59am
JennH, JRB may not notate his new scores himself, as it's faster and easier to have an assistant do so, but he is fully capable of reading and writing music. Also, in what way do his songs not make functional sense? He generally writes very tonal music, using pop song forms.
#25Composers who aren't great musicians?
Posted: 2/8/17 at 12:01pm
I would guess that most audiences in the US are devoid of much musical education, and for them, technique is elitist, dry, and dull, but inspiration and soul are everything.
Or, as Madame Armfeldt said, this is:
A world where the kings are employers
Where the amateur prevails,
And delicacy fails to pay.
As for this: "JRB may not notate his new scores himself, as it's faster and easier to have an assistant do so..."
That's not really true; I don't know anyone who can listen to a new song and transcribe it perfectly off the bat. It's a laborious process.
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