Favorite and least favorite Richard Rodgers shows- Page 2

[magruder]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 3:36pm

Thinking further about the virtues of Carousel, I thought about the excellent book, Beautiful Morning, by Ethan Mordden, about Broadway musicals of the 1940s (yes, one of Rod's favorite books - "High Button Shoes! Pal Joey!").

Anyway, Mordden brings up an excellent point about what he thinks Carousel is about. He writes that he feels it's about the many sacrifices that women make that men never notice.

Julie, for example, risks being fired from her job at the mill to stay out late with Billy. She's stalwart when Billy and Jigger go off on their stupid, ill-fated burglary, and she faces the scorn of marrying a man for the sex appeal, while her friend Carrie marries for mercenary reasons. Later, she's left as a single mother, raising an angry, lost child. Meanwhile, the earthy, spunky Carrie of Act One is a very different creature 15 years later in Act Two after raising nine Snow children.

This brings us to the famous, controversial line of dialogue between Louise and Julie, about whether a man can hit you and yet, not hurt you at all. It's a dated sensibility, to be sure, but rather than endorsing spousal abuse, I think Hammerstein's point (he was a humanist, after all), is that women are the superior creatures who rise above the childish, immature actions of the men in their lives.

Updated On: 5/26/04 at 03:36 PM

[CurtainUp]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 3:46pm

My whole opinion on R&H is that there songs are either beautiful or adorable, but the stories bore me. Perhaps I was too young to appreciate it, but still.

I really am not a fan of Ohlahoma, but I think it's got some of the most fun music. I dont like the King and I, but I think some of the music is BEAUTIFUL! Same with South Pacific which I actually saw this year, I loved the musical numbers but the story...LONNNG. I know this may sound immature, but it's just a personal opinion!

[Dolly_Levi]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 4:04pm

My favorite Rodgers score is SOUTH PACIFIC. I think that this score has some of the most beautiful, soaring, lush melodies incl. "Some Enchanted Evening," "Twin Soliloquies," "Bali Ha'i," and " I like the simplicity and fun of "Honey Bun," "Gonna Wash That Man Right Outta My Hair," and "Happy Talk." And in terms of great character songs (thank you Mr. Hammerstein) "Cockeyed Optimist," and "Wonderful Guy" are amazing.

CAROUSEL is a close second. As previously mentioned the opening waltz is divine. "Silioquy" unmatched still today and the interwoven speaking anmd singing of the "If I Loved You" Sequence is brilliance. "You'll Never walk Alone" is simple, powerful and beautiful.

[boborunstheshow]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 4:45pm

Sound of music. All others are *thumbs down* pbthpbthpbthpbthpbthpbthp

[jezzebelle]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 6:55pm

Favorite Shows: Carosel and Sound of Music.

Least Favorite: Oklahoma ! Blech.

[BakersWife3]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 7:40pm

i was raised on the fabulous R&H and they hold a very special place in my heart...i do know that the musicals aren't perfect (especially some of the movie versions - yikes) but i really love the humanity that are in these shows...especially if they are performed with repect and truth

my favs: oklahoma (if it's done truthfully...like the revival)
carousel (oh...the waltz always sends shivers up my spine)
King and I (go carolee go!! saw her as Anna when papermill did it and it was FABULOUS!!)

my least fav: south pathetic...ahem...i of course mean pacific there, slip of the fingers...

one of the reasons why i have so much respect and love for these two guys is because they created these character who are so human and so flawed...it's such good theatre

[bob8rich]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 8:05pm

Whatever the merits of individual commenst on their likes and dislikes of Carousel, one fact is clear - it is one of the most important musicals in the history of musical theatre. Most things we take for granted in musicals today were made possible by what Hammerstein (especially) and Rodgers did in Carousel.

The Park Bench scene (If I Loved You) which merges dialogue with song so perfectly was almost revolutionary at the time while it has become standard in musical theatre writing today. Similarly the Soliloquy - a "dramatic aria" that lasted 8 minutes to close Act One in a Broadway musical in 1943 - very brave and innovative. Following on from Oklahoma, Carousel almost redefined musical theatre.

And I agree with the comments made about the main theme of the show - loving someone despite all their faults, as is so perfectly captured in one of ths show's most poignant songs, "What's the Use Of Wondring?" I heard Sondheim comment in an interview some years ago that he thought "WTUOW" was one of THE great songs in musical theatre - it is so perfectly crafted and the music and lyrics fit like a glove.

Almost all songwriters writing in musical theatre today would admit the debt they owe to R & H in general and to Carousel in particular.

Updated On: 5/26/04 at 08:05 PM

[marincrazy11]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 8:24pm

Favorites: Carousel-I LOVE THIS SHOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, King and I (It's just gorgeous), Pal Joey

Least Favorties: State Fair, I just could never get into it.

I pretty much like the rest of them but they don't really stick out to me. I am in South Pacific right now, and I agree it's a loooong story, but it's got some amazing songs in it(You've Got To Be Carefully Taught, This Nearly Was Mine, Some Enchanted Evening, and Cockeyed Optimist are my favs).

I can't even express my love for Carousel-I think it's just marvelous!!!!!! I love the solilquy, it's amazing! I'm not even gonna try and put it in words. I would love to play Julie Jordan some day!

I think it is important though to realize what Rodgers and Hammerstein did for musical theater though. They broke new boundries that had had never been tested before. They brought up issues of prejudice(South Pacific, King and I, Sound of Music), abuse (Carousel), and they brought together the ideas mentioned by bob8rich as well as in Oklahoma where there was a long ballet scene which had never before been a feature in a Broadway musical!

Three cheers for R & H!

[Plum]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 8:49pm

Actually, I'm pretty sure the ballet thing had been done before (In a Rodgers and Hart show?), but it wasn't as much of a plot and character advancer as it was in Oklahoma. Also, you could say that the pioneering Showboat brought up race as well, but Hammerstein was involved in that, too, wasn't he? :)

But yes, R&H were absolutely pioneers of musical theater. If their stuff seems trite today, it's because so many since have imitated them and built on what they started.

[broadwaysweetheart]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 9:29pm

Fave: probably Babes in Arms
Least: Sound of Music

[Jon]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 10:13pm

Yeah, there was a long ballet in Rodgers & Hart's ON YOUR TOES - the "Slaughter on Tenth Avenue" ballet.

The difference is that it didn't "further the plot". ON YOUR TOES is a musical about a ballet company, and "Slaughter on Tenth Ave." is the ballet they create.

[Plum]

Posted: 5/26/04 at 11:32pm

Yes, that's it. I bow to your superior memory, Jon. :)

[onceadancer2]

Posted: 5/27/04 at 10:18am

I'd like to make a few corrections to the assumptions posted on this thread. I danced in a number of Richard Rodgers musicals and worked with Balanchine, Robert Alton and Agnes de Mille.

Concerning dance in Richard Rodgers musicals:

Rodgers was not exactly a dance novice as Agned de Mille wrote or would have you believe. The problem with Richard Rodgers pre-de Mille was that none of the choreography survived. Thus, no one has any idea of what it looked like, which includes journalists, writers and those posting on this board.

To go back to 1926, PEGGY-ANN introduced an extended dream dance which closed ACT II. I saw this production but cannot remember very much of it. However, in reading the reviews of the day, there is continual mention of a slow, jazz-like dance in which Helen Ford as Peggy-Ann weaved in and out of a line of performers who resembled her family, finally winding up with her boyfriend in upstate NY rather than her swain in NYC. This was quite daring at the time, and I am sure that Rodgers knew exactly what was happening.

The best Rodgers and Hart choreography came post 1935, beginning with ON YOUR TOES, introducing SLAUGHTER ON TENTH AVENUE. This did not advance the plot, but it did have two extended dance sequences, PRINCESS ZENOBIA and SLAUGHTER. BABES IN ARMS did have PETER'S JOURNEY. I danced in PETER'S JOURNEY and it very specifically showed the audience where Peter was going , his thoughts and his ambitions. True, it was a lampoon, but it did add significantly to the plot. I MARRIED AN ANGEL in 1938 had so much dance that Rodgers and Hart had to forfeit some songs. The cast boasted a 35 members corps and a 23 minute ballet in ACT I, the HONEYMOON BALLET, in which Angel and the count flew around the world and ended in a blizzard in the North Pole. It also introduced two extended intreludes, a combination of singing and dancing. It was also the first time to my knowledge that the dancing corps actually spoke. BOYS FROM SYRACUSE. What many of you don't know was that dance was alos significantly used in this show. The extended sequence to FALLING IN LOVE WITH LOVE was cut prior to the opening. It showed Adriana's sexual passion and her pain when Antipholus was not around. There was an extended pas de trois foillowing THE SHORTEST DAY OF THE YEAR, where George Church supported Heidi Vosseler (on pointe) as the sacred personification of love and Betty Bruce (first in ballet slippers and then without shoes altogether) as the earthier love. For some reason, the dance music to this sequence has never been recorded or used. The number was so overtly sexual that few critics mentioned it. The only one who did was John Martin, the dance critic for the Times who mentioned its voluptuousness and its depiction of Antipholus's sexual ambiguity with his wife. PAL JOEY had an extended first act number with Joey imagining his future. Again, a wonderful and daring number that was never recorded.

So, Richard Rodgers knew about dance and how it could advance a musical. Agnes de Mile liked to puff herself up. Rodgers was no fool!

Miriam

Updated On: 5/27/04 at 10:18 AM

[judy_in_disguise]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 10:03am

Fave: Babes in Arms (could have something to do with my Judy Garland obsession hehe)
Least Fave: Pal Joey and Carousel (I seem to have a lot of support on this one ).

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 10:38am

Once again, Miriam - thank you. Please get that book contract.

BABES IN ARMS may be Rogers strongest 'hit' score with almost an embarassment of classic songs - "Johnny One Note", "Where or When" "The Lady is a Tramp" "I Wish I were in Love Again" and "My Funny Valentine". Almost always cut for misgided reasons is "All Dark People Are Light on Their Feet", originally performed by the Nicholas Brothers.

I do like the less hit-full follow up, TOO MANY GIRLS.

I adore SOUTH PACIFIC. Never warmed to OKLAHOMA (but love "Out of My Dreams").

[mallardo]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 11:08am

Re Carousel, which I regard as a masterpiece, I'm suprised no one has mentioned "What's the Use of Wonderin'" which to me is one of the great all-time songs. Jan Clayton's heart-rending version of it on the original cast recording gets to me every time.

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 11:18am

Right On! We should have a CAROUSEL club! I loooove looove looovve looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove CAROUSEL.

I hate hate haaaaaate haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattteeee OKLAHOMA! That show could be just an hour long if you take out the crap.
UGH.

-d.b.j-

[~FloweryFriend~]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 11:34am

FAVORITE: South Pacific

LEAST FAVORITE: State Fair

I've never seen Carousel. I'll try to rent it sometime soon.

(P.S. I love it when Miriam posts.)

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 11:43am

STATE FAIR isn't bad if you rent the 1945 film, though the 1961 remake does have the eye-popping Ann-Margaret performing "Isn't it Kinda Fun".

The Judy/Mickey BABES IN ARMS is pretty much a travesty as the majority of the songs were dropped in favor of enjoyable but less good new ones by Nacio Herb Brown & Arthur Freed.

Another R&H song I never liked until I saw Christine Ebersole perform it a few years ago : "The Gentleman Is A Dope". Of course, It did help my appreciation of the song that at the time I was involved with a gentleman who was a dope, allright...

Updated On: 5/31/04 at 11:43 AM

[twogaab2]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 6:40pm

A note to Jon, give Pipe Dream at LEAST a few more tries. Granted it is on of R&H's least succcessful scores and has several mediocre nubers (Hasel's Song, Lopsided Bus, that Ba-Ba-Loo number they wrote for Traubel) It also includes several unbelievlbly gorgeous songs-pay particular attention to "Susy is a Good Thing" "The Man I Used to Be" "Everybody's Got a Home but Me" "All at Once You Love Her", "The Next Time It Happens". A show that includes these GREAT songs can't be counted as a total wash out.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong, but give it another shot

Updated On: 6/1/04 at 06:40 PM

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 5/31/04 at 8:01pm

Favorite: The Sound of Music...by far. I adore this show (and movie) more than I can say.

Least Favorite: South Pacific...but I have not seen many Richard Rodgers shows so....