Follies questions

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 4:37pm

Does Phyllis love Ben? I guess she must, otherwise why stay with him? Does Ben love Phyllis?

Why did the Plummers call their sons Tim & Tom?

Is not marrying Ben 30 years ago the sole reason for Sally's poor mental health?

Do all of the featured characters know each other? I guess not considering they were at the Follies at different times?

"I wore green the last time" says Sally… what WAS the last time? A previous reunion?

Why does the character of Roscoe disappear after Beautiful Girls?

How old is Weismann in 1971?

What do you imagine happened to the characters post-show? Did Sally's health take a sharp decline upon her return to Phoenix? Were Ben and Phyllis still together by 1995?

 

 

Updated On: 9/24/25 at 04:37 PM

[mrgd55]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 5:09pm

Here's my take. I've seen 10 different productions, 18 times total. However, I did not see the original.

Phyllis does love Ben, but her patience with him has run out.

Ben only loves himself.  Completely self absorbed narcissist.

No idea why Tom and Tim. If there is a reason I would love to know.

Sally's mental health is due to her depression and possible early onset of dementia.  She's also an alcoholic. I think she would have turned out this way Ben or no, but Ben did not help.

No all the featured characters don't know each other.  Hattie, Solange, the Whitmans, and Heidi's day would have been long before the principals, Stella and Carlotta.  However, Ben does recall seeing Hattie on stage.

I believe Sally is referring to the last time she had sex with Ben.  Probably the flash back scene in Too Many Mornings.

I think Roscoe, like all the secondary characters get their moment then disappear.  I think it's intentional - life is fleeting. Your're here then you're gone.

If Weissman was producing shows in 1918? He would have been at least 30? So if the show is set @1970, then he would be @80.

Sally gets help, but it's a long road.  Buddy sticks with her till her death. Ben realizes he does love Phyllis, but it's too late.  They divorce, he spends the rest of his life in regret and alcoholism.  Phyllis moves on, has many lovers, runs a foundation of her own and basically has the time of her life.

I love this show.  I saw my parents in Buddy and Sally with a little bit of Phyllis and Ben. 

Anyway that's my 2 cents!

Would love to hear what other folks think.

I will talk about this show anytime.  My husband is sick of my fantasy Follies casting!

 

 

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 5:33pm

I agree Phyllis loved Ben at some point (and perhaps still does deep down).  But Ben wanted a society wife--he wanted to be the big shot who had everything the people (like his younger self) would be envious of, and Phyllis knew that and tried to change herself to accommodate that, like walking her feet off in the Met, etc.  But in doing so she created a version of herself that didn't necessarily feel true to her and she did it all for Ben and not for herself, and somewhere along the line she started harboring resentment for that.  I do think Phyllis still cares for Ben in the end, and maybe part of that is seeing Ben break down and how he's had his own regrets too, and when he calls out for her maybe both realize how much he's come to rely on her. 

I do think Ben made a bit of a calculating move when he chose Phyllis rather than Sally because he saw that Phyllis would be the kind of wife he wanted.  I do think he felt something for her but probably not love in the conventional way, and then he grew to love what she represented as the beautiful smart compentent wife.  But he's also cared about his image so much that his follie fully breaks down--he's lost sight of who he actually is.  While Phyllis is similar, her follie has more to do with how to reconcile the two sides, but Ben's doesn't even recognize that there ARE two.  So I think he thinks he love Phyllis in a perfunctory way because that's what his perfectly polished politician persona would do, but it takes him stripping that away to realize much of his life has been a lie and perhaps the only thing that wasn't was the fact that Phyllis stood by him the whole time.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 5:42pm

Thanks, Mrgd55.

That all makes sense to me.

Perhaps Sally is down because of her housewife lifestyle, instead of being a showbiz star, or glamorous First Lady type like Phyllis. She imagines Ben could have given her the dream life she always wanted, but in reality probably would have ended up as miserable as Phyllis even if she HAD married him. Post-curtain, I think it all goes downhill for poor Sally. She never recovers, and dies young. Fifties. Suicide.

Phyllis, however, goes onto better things. She remains with Ben, until his own early death. She cares for him in his final months and days, and is at his bedside when he dies. Out of duty, but also out of genuine care and affection. After his death, she finally feels free and independent. She gets a publishing deal and releases a cook book. High class dinner parties stuff. Despite the prediction of death in 1995, she is still alive today, soon to celebrate her 106th birthday.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 5:44pm

Also thanks Chris, that analysis also makes perfect sense!

[mrgd55]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 5:57pm

I love this topic and hearing different interpretations!

Wanted to add here, that I always imagine there are like a hundred people at the reunion.  Not just what can be afforded on a stage.

I would love to see a movie version with big names as Ben, Phyllis and Carlotta and complete unknowns (maybe from Broadway) as Sally and Ben.  Then for all the other characters cast forgotten people from 70's - 80's tv (think Brady 
Bunch etc).  People who really didn't make it big, that you sort of recognize and go "oh my god that's .....!"

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 6:05pm

Megan Mullally is my dream Phyllis. Stage, screen, I don't care. Sally I'm still working on, I'd screen test Sandra Bullock. Jon Hamm as Benjamin, Norbert Leo Butz as Buddy. I kinda want Guillermo del Toro to direct the movie.

You?

Updated On: 9/24/25 at 06:05 PM

[The8re phan]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 6:09pm

LUVED your points mrgd55 :)

 

I too am hoping for film version, and soon, while Michelle Pfeiffer can still play Phyllis

[darquegk]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 6:23pm

This is a musical I can see Mike Flanagan doing well. Follies has always been on the verge of being an outright horror story, and flirts with it but doesn't go there. And his oeuvre is both deeply metaphysical and deeply humanistic.

[SteveSanders]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 6:34pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Megan Mullally is my dream Phyllis. Stage, screen, I don't care. Sally I'm still working on, I'd screen test Sandra Bullock.Jon Hamm as Benjamin, Norbert Leo Butz as Buddy. I kinda want Guillermo del Toro to direct the movie.

You?"

Not Follies, but she will be in a new musical in 2026 at the Goodman Theater in Chicago.  Kathleen Marshall directs.  It is called: Iceboy! Or, The Completely Untrue Story of How Eugene O'Neill Came to Write The Iceman Cometh.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 7:13pm

I do not believe that Sally has early dementia.  I also have to admit that I never thought that she was an alchoholic, although I guess that it is possible.. 

I have always felt that she was a not very smart, not very sophisticated young woman who was enamored by Ben's intelligence, sophistication, and probably looks.  He was exciting, whereas Buddy was at best dependable.  When she was young, she was either prettier than Phyllis or so visibly idolized Ben that he was attracted to her for one of those reasons.  He was never serious for her for one minute.  When the time came for him to rise up in his career (self-confidence was never a problem), he knew that Phyllis could be the great man's wife, whereas Sally's lack of sophistication would become an embarrassment over time.  Over the years, Sally became more and more obsessed by the idea of Ben -- after all, she would read about him and Phyllis occasionally in Life or People Magazines -- and that obsession peaked when she received the invitation to the reunion.

When Ben came to the reunion, he was seriously unhappy with his life and with his relationship with Phyllis.  When he saw Sally and saw that she was still obsessed with him, his narcissism took over.  Live, Laugh, Love forced him to recognize that, despite the career success and fame, he was miserably unhappy. and his life was a lie  He recognized that Phyllis was his ballast, calling out for her.

Phyllis loved Ben when they married and, has clearly become supremely jaded about their marriage, but she is not ready to live without him (I admit this is a stretch).  Possible reasons: she hopes that he will change?  she loves the person he was enough to stay the course; she doesn't (despite Could I Leave You) see herself alone.  I do not think they eventually get divorced; I have always assumed their relationship improved somewhat specifically because Ben realiized that he needed her more than he would ever admit. 

I just assumed that 'I wore green the last time' simply referred to the last time Sally remembers their being happy together, but I can certainly see the argument that it represents the last time they made love.  Much better assumption.

I always thought Tim and Tom was an easy way to demonstrate her lack of sophistication.

At the end, I thought that Phyllis and Ben had an (however slight) opportunity to improve their relationship.  I felt that Buddy was going to be a martyr for the rest of his lie, that he was always going to stay with Sally (even if he would continue to cheat).  I felt that Sally was going to get worse...she would have no hope in her life and she would essentially wilt away.  I assumed, ironically, that she would probably become an alchoholic.  Since she barely mentioned Tim and Tom, I did not think she would settle into being grandma.  

They simply needed the Roscoe character to sing Beautiful Girls.  There was no need to dwell on his story.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 7:52pm

Looks great, Steve, thanks. I've only been to the Goodman once, not too long ago, and vowed to return! This might be the one.

[jagman106]

Posted: 9/24/25 at 8:48pm

Does Phyllis love Ben? I guess she must, otherwise why stay with him? Does Ben love Phyllis?

I believe Phyllis loves Ben, but she’s no longer in love with him. She molded herself to become a society wife (remember it's 1971, not 2025) and enjoys the lifestyle Ben provides her. Ben’s self-absorption, philandering, and lack of appreciation for Phyllis has caused her to feel an emotional void despite living their financial and social status. Phyllis stayed with Ben out of comfort and the fact that in the 1950s-60s, divorce was not viewed upon favorably and could have had negative repercussions for Ben’s career. Phyllis stayed with Ben as do many couples who fall out of love but still care for each other, and she may have stayed in the marriage out of a sense of duty, although with changing societal attitudes towards divorce in the late 60s/early 70s and more opportunities for women, Phyllis considers divorce more seriously.

Ben loved Phyllis when he married her in his own detached way. Ben’s love for himself was greater than his love for any partner (potential or actual). As Ben became more successful, his disregard for his wife became more evident causing Phyllis to feel emotionally abandoned. It’s not until his folly that he realizes how much he needs Phyllis and that he still loves her as only Ben can love another person, including his wife. I believe the couple stay together after the reunion, but more out of convenience than deep love.

Why did the Plummers call their sons Tim & Tom?

Not sure. We don’t have enough backstory to understand the naming of the boys.

Is not marrying Ben 30 years ago the sole reason for Sally's poor mental health?

I think Sally’s emotional and mental fragility existed well before Ben’s early rejection, but that rejection had a profound negative impact on her mental health. The rejection was not the sole reason for her state, but it exacerbated a decline in her mental health. Her obsession with what could have been steadily influenced her decline as she demonstrates having poor coping mechanisms (Losing My Mind). Ben’s rejection at the reunion after giving Sally false hope only further exacerbates Sally’s condition as it visibly negatively affects her. I think this second rejection shatters her completely resulting in a more rapid decline from which she never recovers.

Do all of the featured characters know each other? I guess not considering they were at the Follies at different times?

Given that all the featured characters appeared in the Follies at one time or another, they may be familiar with each other (at least those people who were more famous), but most likely, the characters know the characters with whom they performed much better and know the others more casually.


"I wore green the last time" says Sally… what WAS the last time? A previous reunion?

I always thought it referred to a previous reunion.

Why does the character of Roscoe disappear after Beautiful Girls?

Roscoe was the master of ceremonies at the Follies, so he was recreating a scene from the old shows when he introduced the showgirls. He has no other role in the story of the 4 principals.

How old is Weismann in 1971?

Weismann Follies took place between WWI and WWII. He had to be well into his 80s.

What do you imagine happened to the characters post-show? Did Sally's health take a sharp decline upon her return to Phoenix? Were Ben and Phyllis still together by 1995?

As I mentioned above, Ben’s recent rejection of Sally contributes to a more rapid decline in her mental health. Buddy, the dutiful caregiver, stays with her until her death or institutionalization, which I believe happens by 1975. Buddy continues his relationship with Margie, although he never loved her as he did Sally. He may marry Margie after Sally’s passing simply because she comforts him despite he not being in love with her.

Also as mentioned above, Phyllis and Ben stay with each other out of convenience and complacency. She may have carved out a life for herself separate from her marriage, but she and Ben do not divorce. 

Updated On: 9/24/25 at 08:48 PM

[bear88]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 3:48am

I always felt that Phyllis was the only character of the main four who came out ahead. She feels sorry for Ben at the climax, and an affection for him that she enjoys feeling, but what she also gets is the realization that he needs her more than she needs him. Perhaps she and Ben will try again as equals, but if not, Phyllis will be fine.

Ben is too much of a self-pitying narcissist. I suppose he could emerge a changed man - and it’s left open - but Follies never felt like a musical that was about the redemption of Benjamin Stone. I agree that he made the practical choice in marrying Phyllis and it’s never been clear if he was ever serious about Sally. She was just a fling.

Sally is the musical’s tragic heroine, and even without the references to suicide that I gather were in the original production, her future looks bleak. Buddy won’t divorce her and will probably end up as her caregiver when he’s not getting away with Margie or whoever replaces Margie. I think mental illness was always part of Sally’s life, just not so noticeable when she - like Phyllis - was a pretty, effervescent young Weissman Girl. Fantasizing about Ben all these years after he dropped her certainly hasn’t helped matters, nor has reading about Ben and Phyllis’ glamorous lives. The ending of Sally’s story is what feels so devastating about the show.

[Owen22]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 10:13am

I think we have to look at Sally and Phyllis's relationship.  Why would Sally cheat with her best friend's boyfriend?  Jealousy of course.  But a lack of self worth when she secretly compares herself to her fellow Follies girl. I'm guessing that's how it began with she and Ben, a way to secretly get back at her more refined roommate. But being (probably) bi polar (her actions with her sons also indicate this) she soon became obsessed and remained so. She probably never loved Buddy but married him as there was no way of tearing Ben from Phyllis. As for Phyllis, she probably never threw anything in Sally's face. She was a good friend. It was all in Sally's mind. In fact, Phyllis wishes she were a little more like Sally. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 11:51am

Yeah, I think Phyllis is the hero of the show.

Is she the only one of the main four without any moral failings? I think so.

[tomorrowBIGLITES]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 12:41pm

I think Ben is gonna die early (while philandering all the way there) and leave Phyllis a beautiful wealthy single woman’s life. She is gonna be absolutely fine. She would probably find out later he was sending money to young women but she gets to be the lady alone with the big houses in the end.

Sally and Buddy call it I’m almost certain and it’s a slow march into a terrible divorce. Sally has her children and she’s just sad and alone but they are her comfort. I feel like Sally will keep on living but it’s just all very sad.

Sally by all accounts is a tragic story of being broken by the system and the American Dream and the way she’s never felt encouraged to be anything besides smaller.

Buddy runs off with someone 20.

[tomorrowBIGLITES]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 12:46pm

If we ever get a Follies movie. It screams A24, Charlie Kaufmanesque, fever dream, Birdman, claustrophobic pressure cooker.

I’ve always wanted to see in the beginning- Sally at home putting a wig on her head and she’s losing basically all her hair, Sally alone on the flight just beaming with anticipation.

Phyllis walking down her enormous grand staircase and Ben is just already in the car not paying attention to her.

Buddy running late cause he’s absolutely with Margie.

 “Buddy’s Eyes” should take place on the roof of the theatre after Ben and Sally sneak up there.

 

Updated On: 9/25/25 at 12:46 PM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 2:19pm

The revelation at the end that Sally threw her life away because Ben said he loved her to placate her while he struggled with her zipper is so bleak.

[mrgd55]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 3:14pm

Love your ideas tomorrowBIGLITES.  I too envisioned the film (of my dreams) opening with Sally looking at her wrinkled face in the mirror, Phyllis dressing, examining her still spectacular figure, Ben bored and sulking over a cocktail, Buddy rushing through the airport. Then I would transition to outside the theater - Times Square @ 1970.  The noise, the filth, the rotten manners...

Can you imagine what they would do with CGI?  No need to double cast the younger versions!

Such thoughtful responses from everyone.  Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks about these things.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/25/25 at 8:56pm

I was with you up until you mentioned CGI! :)

That simply can't happen.