Gavin Creel, Raul Esparza, Cheyanne Jackson- Page 3

[NCGuy]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 3:47pm

Wouldn't YOU be annoyed if I, and a bunch of my straight friends, marched down the street proclaiming our straightness? Ugh.

Freeadmision, I'm not sure if your post was meant to be offensive or just came across that way because of poor word choices ("act like it's normal"...WTF?), but can I ask you a question: What country do you live in? You don't have to march down the street proclaiming your "straightness"...your rights are protected. As long as we live in a country where a man can be elected president by running on a platform that advocates writing discrimination into THE CONSTITUTION(!), gays and lesbians must continue to fight and make themselves visible. We've certainly come a long way, but we aren't quite to the point where we can just "live our lives."

UPDATED TO ADD: There is something to be said for all the gays and lesbians who are living quiet (not closeted, but quiet) lives, making those around them aware that gay people are "just like everyone else," but it isn't enough. We just aren't there yet. Updated On: 7/22/05 at 03:47 PM

[freeadmission]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:18pm

I didn't mean to offend, I'm just annoyed. I said, "act like it's normal" because it's rare that I meet a gay person who does. They act like it's some big thing that EVERYONE and their dog needs to know about it and be okay with, damnit. The fact is, there's always gonna be someone who dislikes SOMETHING about you and discriminates against you for that reason. So just live don't be an ass about it. If someone wants to be an ass towards you because of it, let them. Their loss.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:23pm

As for Raul...has anybody seen his wife?

Several times, most recently about... a month ago after Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. *shrug* He had been in a hurry because of dinner plans, or something, so I'd assume that's why she was there. Google around, I know there are pictures of them together. (You know, because he might be making her up, and it needs to be questioned.)

Does Raul have a wife and a BF, I'm confused.
For the six millionth time, can't we leave him alone?

And as for this topic as a whole, I'm done typing my fingers off to feel like I'm talking to a God damned wall. It certainly says something when comments go unacknowledged over and over and over again - skirting issues doesn't make them go away, and ignoring what you don't like won't make it disappear. What? Do I not deserve the courtesty of an acknowledgement, for some reason or another? Are the things I'm raising too much to be dealt with? Maybe something I say isn't so wrong - deal with it. I've not gotten an answer but once, even when asking direct questions, other than to be preached to about what words mean, and the like. Maybe I've hit a nail on the head - who knows? This is making my head spin. Don't bother answering now, it'll be out of pity.

Updated On: 7/22/05 at 04:23 PM

[NCGuy]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:41pm

If someone wants to be an ass towards you because of it, let them. Their loss.

Unfortunately, freeadmission, things aren't quite that simple. I think it's wonderful that to you it's no "big thing" (that IS some sort of progress), but to a large portion of the population (and the politicians representing them), it IS still an issue, and does affect my life.

And luvtheEmcee, I thought you made some valid points...My posts have not been commenting on the original topic, but to more general points made by Freeadmission (to be honest with you, I don't even know who the hell Gavin Creel is).
Updated On: 7/22/05 at 04:41 PM

[DBillyP]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:42pm

It is with great trepidation that I enter this fray ...

I am always saddened when lesbians and gays exhibit the same narrowmindedness of which accuse and criticize others. Saying that "openly gay" has but one definition is like saying that the muscled, gym-bunnies are the only kind of gay man.

(No offense intended to the muscled, gym-bunnies.)

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 6:29pm

Thank you, NCGuy.

Gavin was the original Jimmy in Thoroughly Modern Millie, and he recently had a featured role in La Cage. That's where most people know him from, I guess. Talented guy, and very sweet.

And applause to you, DBillyP. I'd have said the same, but to be straight and make that accusation would've put me severely on the offensive, where I absolutely don't mean to be.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 7:03pm

As far as not wanting the personal details of your life posted on the internet, that is simply common sense. Stalkers. Kidnappers. Obsessed fans. People in the public eye are especially vulnerable because unbalanced people fixate on them, think they own them in some way. It simply safer. It's not the only reason to want to keep your private life private, but it's one of them.

Most of us on this board are fairly anonymous to the general public, so no matter what we went on the internet and said or had told about us - sorry, but who cares? Not so a celebrity. I'm just saying that not wanting your personal life advertised on the internet doesn't automatically make you ashamed or insecure of anything about yourself. To make a judgement like that you have to know the person. The fact that we think we have the right to make such judgements because we know their names, their faces, and a few details about them just goes to demonstrate what happens to celebrities all the time.

[TabooPhan1]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 11:14pm

Freeadmission, I'd just like to say that your logic is a tiddle flawed. It's not uncommon to meet gay people who do not flaunt their sexuality, and it's also not uncommon to meet people who do. The point is, when you've seen people who have been harrassed as brutally as our group has in recent (and not so recent) years, it's hard to just want to say, "Oh well." and continue watching it occur. Up until the past few decades it was completely unacceptable to tell anyone you were gay, and now that we feel free to be who we are, you better believe we're gonna celebrate that. I am not being racist, just making a point, when I say: No one complains about BET, or national black history month, nor should they. Why is it any different? Should we tell black people they don't have the right to be proud? Isn't this part of your "Live and let live" philosophy?

As for "being an ass" about being gay, that's F***ing rediculous. When people like Matthew Shephard are murdered, when people in other countries are given the death sentance for proclaiming their sexuality, DON'T go calling the people who fight for protection asses. It's childish and ignorant. "Acting" gay is more than just a lifestyle, it's a statement. When someone tells you to "just live" when you see your entire community being segregated and barraged, then come talk to me about "just living". This is oddly reminiscent of people asking MLK why he couldn't just accept society's standards for blacks. What's the difference? Sometimes you have to be the extremist just to be normal. Before you just go flapping your mouth, think. And just the fact that you would complain about other people "shoving their gayness down your throat" is disproving your "live and let live" theory, cause I'll let you hate me if I can flaunt my "gayness". Oppression isn't a joke.

[StephanietheStar]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 11:51pm

I hate that everyone I want to marry is either gay or married....I can't WIN!!!

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 11:52pm

Well, let's hear it for realism!

Updated On: 7/22/05 at 11:52 PM

[eslgr8]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 3:11am

DBillyP, I'm actually quite astounded that you would accuse me of narrow-mindedness by giving what I believe is the accepted definition of "openly gay" by publications such as The Advocate, Out, Gay/Lesbian Times, etc. If "openly gay," as referring to an actor, writer, politician, singer, artist, etc. means anything other than the person in question saying the words "I'm gay" or "As a gay person" or "We gay people" or something to that effect ON THE RECORD, then please give me another definition which a gay publication would use when referring to someone as "openly gay/out". And much as I like and respect you as a fellow theater fan, gay man, and member of the Broadwayworld family, I cannot fathom the logic in equating my definition of "openly gay" or "out" (I believe them to be synonymous) with saying that there is only one kind of gay man. I see no correlation between the two statements, the latter of which I would never ever make.
Updated On: 7/23/05 at 03:11 AM

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 11:43am

DGrant hasn't even posted on this thread. Shows how much concentration you're giving to something that is oh-so important, doesn't it?

I don't think I can even try express my frustration. This is painfully disgusting.

Updated On: 7/23/05 at 11:43 AM

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 12:29pm

luv, "These people aren't objects" is the smartest thing that's been said on this board, the most compassionate thing, and it badly needed to be said.

Individual liberty and human dignity is about not having to have any part of you put to someone else's personal, social or political use.

[eslgr8]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 12:56pm

Emcee, you're right that I confused DBillyP and DGrant, and I apologize for the mistake, however I do not appreciate the catty remark. It was unnecessary and uncalled for. Anyone who has read my comments can see that I do my best to proofread and to make sure that my ideas have been clearly expressed, and that as a rule I am hardly inattentive in my contributions to this site. Like you, however, I am frustrated that I can't get through to those who disagree with my point of view. Apparently, we in the gay community have our own polarization, which reflects the situation in the country as a whole. I can understand that others have a different point of view, but I am unswayed in my own, despite their efforts to convince me that I'm wrong.
Updated On: 7/23/05 at 12:56 PM

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 1:06pm

Who cares if someone is gay or not. Big deal.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 1:22pm

I think Chita's getting upset because he may not be able to express how gay he is in public without a d!ck in his mouth.

[alphieboy]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 1:24pm

Oh my...

[TabooPhan1]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 1:50pm

TheatreDiva, that was low and disgusting. If you want to attack someone, say something legitimate, not something we'd hear in a high school locker room.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 2:35pm

Thank you, justthefacts. I think my stance here is a result of just that; compassion. Not in such specificity as sexuality, but just about general respect. I've met all three of the men about whom this thread was started; and even though this isn't truly about just them anymore, with them very much in mind, it's painful for me the way this is all being treated.

esl - My "cattiness," as you call it, is not about proofreading - I'd be awfully dense to get so worked up over a typo - and the fact that you seem to think it is simply goes again to show that you seem to barely be paying attention to anything I say. You've appropriately only addressed something that I brought up that is completely a sidebar to the real issue. It's just *so* reassuring to know that my comments have continually be extracted from full context, twisted, and probably intentionally, blindly misread.

Updated On: 7/23/05 at 02:35 PM

[DBillyP]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 2:57pm

esl, my point is that trying to apply one definition to all members of a group is ludicrous. By your definition, I am not openly gay since I have never said "I am gay" in the pages of a magazine. You are applying what you "believe" is the definition used by publications.

An actor can be openly gay among the theatre community without ever discussing it with the Advocate. A person can be openly gay at work without ever telling a family member.

Coming out is, unfortunately, a lifelong process. Fortunately, however, it is a process that each person can choose for him or herself. To criticize someone for not being openly gay when you don't even know the person simply because he or she doesn't fit your definition of the way their life should be led is, yes, narrowminded.

I agree that it would be great if every lesbian or gay person felt comfortable being out to the entire world, since we are definitely lacking in role models. Alas, that is not the case, but it is not my place to tell someone else how open or closeted he or she should be.

[Broadway_Bound_Star]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 3:19pm

Reading this thing is really weird, who cares about who is gay and who isn't, its really no ones business but their own.

[justthefacts2]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 3:24pm

esl, I've thought a lot about the difference between your position and mine on this issue - and those with whom we line up about this. I'm about protecting the individual - everything luv was saying before. You are about compromising individuals, if necessary, to protect a community. It's a dichotomy that applies not only to the gay community but to every social issue in history in which people have struggled for freedom. There's never been an easy answer. On different issues, our positions might reverse. Yeats wrote a line that applies, I think, in a poem about about a different struggle: "Too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart."

Updated On: 7/24/05 at 03:24 PM

Posted: 7/23/05 at 3:32pm

"A person can be openly gay at work without ever telling a family member. "

DBillyP...Ah no he can't. That's the problem . You have no idea what openly gay means.

[Kringas]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 3:53pm

Jumping back a little bit here:

Straight people don't go around saying they are straight.

Baddadnpa, no, they don't, because the implicit societal assumption is that everyone is straight. It may not be to the people on here, but this board really isn't a microcosm of society.

It will continue to be difficult for gays to enter the mainstream if we continue to act as if we need to make "the statement" everytime we go out.

Making no statement is akin to giving your tacit acceptance of the status quo. And your statement saddens me, because you're putting the burden of responsibility on gays, yet implying that visibility (or visibility you personally find distasteful) ties our hands.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 7/23/05 at 4:00pm

TabooPhan,

I didn't think I was talking to you. Chita sent me a PM asking what the comment meant. So, I guess you are the only one offended.

I don’t care.