In your opinion, what is Sondheim's most overrated musical score?- Page 2

[broadwaybabywannabe]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 7:41am

OVERRATED?...SONDHEIM?...you have got be kidding...his flops have been many so i think the public has let him know what scores work and which ones dont...i dare say in my humble 41 year history of attending SONDHEIM muscials...NO SHOW IS OVER RATED....even (in my way of thinking the critics have been too kind) PASSION and SUNDAY have songs i love in them even if i would nevr pay to see them in person...

p.s. i love ROAD SHOW...it grows on me in a good way everytime i listen to it...
Updated On: 8/27/11 at 07:41 AM

Posted: 8/27/11 at 7:56am

3blunight--I agree with your great analysis of Someone in a Tree--and I think in the context of the show when watching the filmed version, or when listening very closely, I find it thrilling for those reasons. But musically, it's one of my least fave moments in the show.

Is Into the Woods overated? many Sondheim "newbies" seem to love it (and it was what made me a fan back when I was 11), but I ntoice among Sondheim "hardcore" fans it rarely comes up as one of the top faves. I guess it depends who you ask.

Broadwaybaby--I don't think the critics were remotely kind on Passion, for the most part... :P

[metropolis10111]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 8:01am

I love this thread because I think that EVERY composer has stuff that makes us scratch our head sometimes and wonder WHY this is one popular one. Yes little minions even Sonheim should have that. I think that the over treatment of him as a 'god' is so irritating. He is a writer, he has his good stuff and his bad stuff.

Foe me I never ever got why Company was the big shiz. I think the score comes off as dated and as a whole work quite boring. For me there are several songs that musically could fit anywhere within the first half of Follies and no one would know they weren't from it originally. Maybe because both shows were written around the same time period, I don't know but when ever I hear Company I am always like.. really... this... again...again... agin.

I think Assassins is one of the great under rated shows ever done by anyone. Yes the revival helped to correct that to some extent but I still think that work is leagues better then really anything that comes out of Company.

[AADA81]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 9:16am

Like many who posted here, I think even Sondheim's most lackluster scores are still interesting. Still, here goes:

Most Underrated: PACIFIC OVERTURES

Like many, I didn't appreciate this on first hearing. It took the 2005 revival recording to get me to reassess it. It now may be my favorite Sondheim score next to "Sweeney Todd" and I listen to it more than any other.


Least Favorite: PASSION

Like many, I didn't appreciate this on first hearing...and I still don't. Musically, I find it to be his least interesting/most boring score and its intellectual pretentiousness off-putting.


Worst Score: ROAD SHOW

A bad idea gone wrong.

[3bluenight]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 9:59am

Gosh, it's so interesting reading through this thread to me. I find that Passion is one of those shows that i have to be in the mood for. I don't find it particularly emotional, but DEEPLY psychological. It's lush, but the lushness is shrouded in layers of harmonic doubt and darkness. i find it throbbing and insistent.

i agree that the literal-mindedness of into the woods makes it a score that i listen to very rarely, but i do find it to be a charming show when done well.

@metropolis - i definitely think that assassins works the best for me as a total show. i like the challenging structure; and being fairly political i totally dig the themes at play.
i think one of the interesting things about company is that it really isn't about marriage - which is why you hear so many directors talking about bobby's emotional state - but i think because the score is fairly intellectual, it's difficult to get down with what the show is attempting to say about how we live. because in our culture (western ameri/euro) we live such isolated (nuclear family) lives. i believe our society really pushes us into having to work EXCEPTIONALLY hard at building emotional connections, especially ones that have any longevity - endurance - something. and for me that's what makes company a good score, it address the loneliness (hehe) of our modern american lives. i don't know. good grief.

Updated On: 8/27/11 at 09:59 AM

[jv92]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 12:49pm

What's with the dislike for ROAD SHOW? I think it has a superb score, with two of his finest ballads. ("Isn't He Something!" and "Best Thing That Ever Happened)

[fingerlakessinger]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 1:01pm

So I'm totally gonna be the bitch of this thread...and before I say this I want to express that I do love me some Sondheim, his songs are great. However, I think most of his work is extremely overrated ON THESE BOARDS. Seriously, he is the end-all-composer sometimes and I think that he has had a few clunkers IMO. But again, that's just me. I think "Company" is pretty bland to me overall. Same with "Sunday in the Park."
I do find "Into the Woods" "A Little Night Music" ect are GREAT.
And I still think "Send in the Clowns" is one superb piece of music.

[TRiceFan]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 2:11pm

Most overrated: Probably ITW. While it did get me started into the world of sondheim, and it is still a great score, I can never find myself LONGING to listen to the cast album. And if anybody knows 1 sondheim show, it is probably ITW.
Most underrated: Jumping on the Pacific Overtures boat here. Even Welcome to Kanagawa, which I used to always skip, I can at least bear now, and the rest of the score is just amazing. Every time I hear it, I just marvel about how well he has blended 2 distinctly different types of sound into a cohesive whole.
Least favorite: Forum. Yup.
Favorite: Passion. Now I never really liked passion, even after multiple listenings to the entire album (minus I Read, Garden Sequence, and Loving you), but after seeing the DVD, I gained a whole new perspective and love for the show. And Donna Murphey. But I love the show and score as a whole. "All the time I watched from my room... Thinking we'd meet, thinking you'd look at me, thinking you'd be repelled by what you saw..."

[Jon]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 3:05pm

Well, most people agree that Bounce/Road Show is just awful, and very few would call Anyone Can Whistle or Passion "great".

As far as "over-rated" goes, I'd choose Night Music. Pretty much a bore - even though it contains his most "popular" song.

[AwesomeDanny]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 4:28pm

Overrated: I was going to say Sweeney, but I have to say Into the Woods because for so many "casual" theatre fans, it's the only Sondheim score they know, and they love it but don't care to see any of his other shows. It's also so commonly performed by high schools and community theaters when other shows of his that I think deserve to be treated just as highly aren't produced as often. When was the last time you heard of a high school doing Sunday?

Underrated: Does Evening Primrose count? I love those songs so much. It's a treat to have the DVD of it.

Favorite: It has to be Follies. It just has to. On long road trips, I can just listen to the show on repeat and never tire of it.

Least favorite: Don't hate me, but it's Pacific Overtures. Some of those songs are just dull. One of them repeats the same verse (with different lyrics) so many times... I think that one is called "Chrysanthemum Tea," and while watching the show, I kept expecting the song to end, but it just never did. I can understand the appeal of the show, I just don't love it.

Posted: 8/27/11 at 7:04pm

"Well, most people agree that Bounce/Road Show is just awful, and very few would call Anyone Can Whistle or Passion "great". "

This is an opinion thread, but with all due respect, speak for yourself. :P

[TheHappyPhantom]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 7:08pm

"This is an opinion thread, but with all due respect, speak for yourself. :P" THANK YOU!



I have to say I agree none of them are overrated.Sweeney purely based on orchestrations and his first usage of cinematic underscoring gives it deserved merit. By a Broadway theatre's standards, perhaps "Forum" is the most overrated, but most Sondheim fans I know, myself included, like to pretend he never made that mess. Clearly my least favorite, but that's putting it kindly. Look at the pointless dribble that lasts for years on Bway (and then tours) and then look at the average run of one of his shows. There's hardly any room for intelligent, emotional, relevant work. If I were to say which one is underrated you could almost make an argument for all of them in some respect. Very few have gotten the attention they deserve. Sunday losing the Tony to La Cage for example, but winning the Pulitzer is a direct example of the kind of welcoming Bway has given most of his work. As for people acting like he's the "2nd coming", I think it's deserved. Heck, he was the first coming! Even his shows that aren't as strong as others are still better than 80 percent of other people's work. Heck, his cut songs get musicals made out of them. We're talking about an art form that was hardly taken seriously (and deservedly so) or even discussed prior to his work because it was mostly all empty fluff. Audiences and critics leave a Sondheim piece actually discussing the message and the meaning, and feeling something. Good luck hearing anything but "I knew all the songs" if you stand by the exit of Mamma Mia. I once saw a documentary where a women was asked about Sondheim's fans and their devotion, and she put it quit simply: "Once you hear it done right. You never wanna hear it done any other way."
Updated On: 8/27/11 at 07:08 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 8:37pm

Overrated: Sunday in the Park With George - I like it, but after the first couple of times seeing the show, I rarely listen to more than about three tracks. Act two is SO ballad heavy, I have trouble staying awake.

Underrated: Pacific Overtures - Should be rated in his top three scores. Poetic, inspired, innovative and unique.

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 9:23pm

I used to really not like Sunday in the Park. It's grown on me.

Into the Woods, though, is absolutely my least favorite. (Granted, I have yet to hear a single note of The Frogs.) Just not my cup of tea. I much prefer early, dark Sondheim.

[binau]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 9:25pm

Do you prefer Road Show to Into the Woods?

It's interesting that you list Into the Woods as one of your favourite shows, too, despite the score not being "your cup of tea" :P.

Updated On: 8/27/11 at 09:25 PM

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 9:54pm

Which should tell you just how high my regard for Sondheim is.

[inlovewithjerryherman]

Posted: 8/27/11 at 9:59pm

For me, I find "A Little Night Music" overrated, only because it's never grabbed me in the way the rest of his work has.

"Sunday" is his best.

"The Frogs" is his most underrated. I think "Ariadne" is one of the most beautiful ballads ever.

Posted: 8/27/11 at 10:24pm

I used to not have a lot of love for Forum--the songs are clever, for sure, and I never hated it (I do kinda the the movie), but it's not my kind of show, and as for early Sondheim scores I much prefered Whistle, Evening Primrose (which I suppose does count--and yes, so great we finally have it on DVD) and Saturday Night. But after I was cast as Miles in a high school production--and later played the role twice more in regional productions, I greew to really appreciate the show, and Sondheim's score and its role in the show, a LOT more--though I have to admit, its still not a cast album I play all that much.

Posted: 8/27/11 at 10:58pm

I do always find it odd when non Sondheim fans complain how people go on about people calling him God, perfect, etc. Part of it, I know, is because I don't live in New York, and even though I went to a theatre heavy school--Sondheim actually wasn't all that well known or beloved. But, as has been pointed out, few of his shows are greeted with huge critical success when they first come out--I don't think it's a blind faith thing at all, he's proven himself as have the shows he was involved in.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 8/28/11 at 12:38am

I guess I'm one of the few. I think both ANYONE CAN WHISTLE and PASSION are great scores.

My problem with ROAD SHOW is only that every musical line sounds like it came from one of Sondheim's previous scores. I mean, the man is certainly allowed to repeat musical motives, but if one is a Sondheim fan they are apparent--and that makes the ROAD SHOW score something less great that his earlier efforts.

[dented146]

Posted: 8/28/11 at 1:59am

I think of him as a lyricist without peer but not as a composer without peer. And I feel much of his work is like a cracker with lox and cream cheese or caviar on top with the cracker being the music and the stuff on top the lyrics. I feel that way about Sweeney.

Much is brilliant; some not so but also much of what is great is not mainstream anyway and is difficult for the public to grasp.

I feel he is mostly underrated because so much goes over people's heads and because his style does not often hit you with singular melodies.
Updated On: 8/28/11 at 01:59 AM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 8/28/11 at 2:59am

Sondheim was also blessed with Jonathan Tunick's genius orchestrations.

Jon: "Well, most people agree that Bounce/Road Show is just awful, and very few would call Anyone Can Whistle or Passion "great"."

I still haven't latched on to Passion (haven't seen the DVD yet, anyways), but Anyone Can Whistle is pretty highly regarded. It's probably his most outright whimsical score; if it were edible, it would be a bag of candy, or rainbow sherbet. Most of the songs are genuinely very good, too. I don't think there's a lack of people proclaiming its greatness.

AwesomeDanny: "Underrated: Does Evening Primrose count? I love those songs so much. It's a treat to have the DVD of it."

It's a really marvelous little score. "If You Can Find Me I'm Here" is my favorite of the four and it has a great lyric at the end ("Live in your barbarous jungle...").

Gaveston2: "My problem with ROAD SHOW is only that every musical line sounds like it came from one of Sondheim's previous scores."

I've only heard "Road Show" once, but there's one song on there, "It's In Your Hands Now" has, I'm almost positive, a direct note-for-note repeat section of one of the melodies in "Another National Anthem" ("Assassins").
Updated On: 8/28/11 at 02:59 AM

[binau]

Posted: 8/28/11 at 3:05am

"It's in Your Hands Now" (Which I LOVE, along with Talent, You, Best thing and Get out/Go) is a trunk song from Assassins..it used to be called "The Flag Song". THe lyrics were somewhere but I can't find them.

So that would explain why you might hear it in the Assassins score. (Sondheim using it as a Motif or whatever before it was cut).

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 8/28/11 at 3:24am

It's definitely in "Another National Anthem".

"There's a road straight ahead, there's a century beginning, there's a land of opportunity and more" almost directly matches "I just heard, on the news, where the mailman won the lottery, goes to show, when you lose what you do is try again", etc.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 8/28/11 at 7:58am

I can't think of one. The ones that are highly acclaimed are justly lauded, there seems to be general agreement with my assessment as to the ones I don't think are his best, and the few I haven't heard (which, in any even I'm hardly in a position to judge) I hardly ever hear discussed.

In fact Sondheim's scores seem to be one topic in which I seem to have my finger on the pulse of popular taste. Thanks for mmaking me realize that, OP.