Miss Saigon Previews Thread- Page 13

[adamgreer]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 11:39am

Babe_Williams said: "Chris learns he has a child and Kim is alive, his first response is "it's too late, I have a new life."

 

Ellen's response to Kim's proposition that they take Tam: "we want kids of our own."

 

what drew kim to Chris or vice versa other then a night of hot sex? Chris doesn't ask Kim about her life until after they he offers her money. What do we know about Kim in the second half of the show other then she is still pining for Chris and loves her son? I like this show, I enjoy the music, but these aren't nuanced or developed characters by any stretch. 

 

One of the the lines that bothers me is the line where Chris says "you are the only thing that I care for here." Kim is an object, by his own choice of words. Also, my statements here are based on my viewing of the show years ago and the original London cast recording. If some of this dialogue has changed, I was not aware. 

 

Ellen also immediately assumes Kim is the maid when they first meet. 

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 11:39 AM

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 12:20pm

adamgreer said: "Babe_Williams said: "Chris learns he has a child and Kim is alive, his first response is "it's too late, I have a new life."

 

Ellen's response to Kim's proposition that they take Tam: "we want kids of our own."

 

what drew kim to Chris or vice versa other then a night of hot sex? Chris doesn't ask Kim about her life until after they he offers her money. What do we know about Kim in the second half of the show other then she is still pining for Chris and loves her son? I like this show, I enjoy the music, but these aren't nuanced or developed characters by any stretch. 

 

One of the the lines that bothers me is the line where Chris says "you are the only thing that I care for here." Kim is an object, by his own choice of words. Also, my statements here are based on my viewing of the show years ago and the original London cast recording. If some of this dialogue has changed, I was not aware. 

 

Ellen also immediately assumes Kim is the maid when they first meet. She then thinks Kim must be John's wife, which never made sense to me, given how close the musical says John and Chris are. All that time together and they never introduced their spouses to each other? It doesn't make sense. 

 

"

Kim thinks Ellen is John's wife

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 2:18pm

WhizzerMarvin said: "I think it's up for debate whether Kim and Chris actually really love each other, and just because they say they do doesn't mean it's true. People say "I love you" all the time when they're caught up in a moment. Once Chris abandons Kim she clinging to the idea of the life Chris promises than of an actual deep love for him. She kills herself, not for Chris, but for Tam. 

Kim is a fighter. She's a survivor. She thinks on her feet and will do anything for her child. I would never describe her as submissive. She does whatever she has to do to stay alive and later to keep her child alive. We know Kim makes her child priority number one at all costs.

I agree that Chris is a far less complex character than Kim and he does indeed view her as an object- she symbolizes something beautiful and peaceful in the midst of the hell that surrounds him. She is an escape and ultimately nothing more. He gets back to the States and attempts to move on with his life. "

Very well said, WhizzerMarvin.

I think, especially in this version (or actually the London revival version), that that debate is very interesting. In a way, they both see eachother as some kind of light in the darkness/escape from the harsh reality. They have a few romantic weeks but who knows what it is truly based on. In the scene with the ceremony, where Kim sings "It's what all the girls sing at weddings", Chris is clearly kind of shocked and I have seen versions of the show where Kim reacted with "They didn't know what else to sing" with a smile, in a very confident, reassuring way, basically telling him that they are on the same page and have the same understanding, that the ceremony is not real, almost winking at him. In this version though, Kim reacts in a very different way, she looks at him truly distressed and is trying to figure out if Chris will be mad, with a strange kind of tension about how serious he is about "them". This makes the whole story more interesting to me, because it indeed can be debated if they really love eachother. It could very well be that Kim, after the fall of Saigon started to idolize things in her head a bit more than was real, and that Chris' relationship with Ellen he has for 3 years? now is much more based on substance and real love. It takes years to know someone well.

This could be supported by lines such as "I have a husband I love, real as the sun in the sky", while they are not even married. She takes this even further in the second act, and we learn about her continued relationship with the Engineer, her guilt about Thuy, and yes, her longing for Chris and the past and her love for Tam. What I also love about her is that when she speaks to Thuy for example, if he approaches her in a very reasonable, subdued way about his frustrations, that is exactly how Kim responds to him, in a very reasonable, subdued way, when he starts being more aggressive and unreasonable, then she takes on the same state of aggressive-ness but still stays reasonable, which is also helped very much by the way the music is written but it's just brilliant in my opinion.

 

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 02:18 PM

[A Director]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 2:45pm

I was so appalled by the image of this deliberate ripping apart that I had to sit down and catch my breath. I suffered for the mother as though I might see my own little boy leaving me forever and I suffered for the child as though in my early youth I had been forcibly removed from my parents. Was that not the most moving, the most staggering example of 'The Ultimate Sacrifice', as undergone by Cio-Cio San in Madame Butterfly, giving her life for her child?

I'm appalled  by the final sentence in the quote.. It undercuts the rest of the paragraph.  Yes, the photo is heartbreaking, but to make the leap to Madama Butterfly is troubling.  Was the mother in the photo a bar girl?  Did the mother in the photo kill herself?  Did the authors attempt to find out?

What is shown in the picture is not unique.  I can understand, after seeing it, being moved to write a play or musical.  What I can't understand is the need to use a stale old trope as a starting point.

 

 

 

 

[A Director]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 2:58pm

> Kim is like a woman in an abusive relationship who gives up her child to the foster care system in a desperate attempt to give the child a better life. We all know the foster care system isn't a walk in the park and there's no guarantee his or her life will actually be any better, but it's the actions of a woman doing what she thinks is best in the direst of situations.

Do mothers who give up their child to the foster care system usually kill themselves?

>I agree that Chris is a far less complex character than Kim and he does indeed view her as an object- she symbolizes something beautiful and peaceful in the midst of the hell that surrounds him. She is an escape and ultimately nothing more. He gets back to the States and attempts to move on with his life. We never hear a solo from him in act that expresses his current feelings about Kim or the fact that he's a father. His character is lacking, but I don't think Kim shares his same deficiencies.

If you understand this, why are you unable to understand that people are bothered by the way Chris thinks about Kim?

>I don't think Kim's complexities are on the level of Bobby or George and Dot, but for a mega-musical heroine she is far more complex and developed than Christine or Cosette.   

This is not the point.  Bobby, George, Dot, Christine, Cosette are white; Kim is Vietnamese.  For many theatergoers, she is the only Vietnamese character they know.

 

 

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 3:37pm

A Director said: "

> Kim is like a woman in an abusive relationship who gives up her child to the foster care system in a desperate attempt to give the child a better life. We all know the foster care system isn't a walk in the park and there's no guarantee his or her life will actually be any better, but it's the actions of a woman doing what she thinks is best in the direst of situations.

Do mothers who give up their child to the foster care system usually kill themselves?

No, of course not. I'm pointing out the complexities of a situation for any women to willing give up a child by any means. I'm arguing here for Kim's complexity- not that this a perfect show, like it's impossible to find any fault with it, but that this woman is a not a submissive, cardboard cutout Asian character. As I said, I think she is strong, smart and has grit and determination in spades. 

>I agree that Chris is a far less complex character than Kim and he does indeed view her as an object- she symbolizes something beautiful and peaceful in the midst of the hell that surrounds him. She is an escape and ultimately nothing more. He gets back to the States and attempts to move on with his life. We never hear a solo from him in act that expresses his current feelings about Kim or the fact that he's a father. His character is lacking, but I don't think Kim shares his same deficiencies.

If you understand this, why are you unable to understand that people are bothered by the way Chris thinks about Kim?
 

I never said I don't understand why people are bothered by Chris or any of the soldiers. In fact, isn't that the point? That we should be horrified by the way the women are treated? I always thought that was the author's intent. No? They want to expose the horrors of war. Yes, we women are all too often merely objects to be bartered and traded in wartime, and it's not just during the Vietnam war, but all conflicts. Look at a play like Eclipsed that dealt with women being used as currency during the Liberian civil war. Of course Miss Saigon portrays these women as objects because that's what they were. It's the disgusting truth of war and we should in turn be disgusted by it, but that's not the same as being disgusted by the musical. The engineer successfully turns Kim into an object and both John and Chris treat her as such (Thuy too), but through all of that she perseveres and finds strength and power through her struggle. Surely you can't deny that Vietnamese and Thai woman were treated as objects during the this time period (and still today)? Why is the musical bad for putting this horrible truth in the spotlight? 

The women in Eclipsed are objects to the (unseen) male characters, and yet they're extremely complex characters. I'll admit they're more complex than Kim, but my point is that characters can be both unfortunate objects in their life situation and be still be complex at the same time.   


>I don't think Kim's complexities are on the level of Bobby or George and Dot, but for a mega-musical heroine she is far more complex and developed than Christine or Cosette.   

This is not the point.  Bobby, George, Dot, Christine, Cosette are white; Kim is Vietnamese.  For many theatergoers, she is the only Vietnamese character they know.

 I was pointing out that Miss Saigon is a certain genre of musical that is perhaps better known for bombastic emotion and characters painted in broad strokes, and yet Kim is afforded more complexity than her genre counterparts. 

 

 

"

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 3:59pm

WhizzerMarvin said: " Of course Miss Saigon portrays these women as objects because that's what they were. It's the disgusting truth of war and we should in turn be disgusted by it, but that's not the same as being disgusted by the musical. The engineer successfully turns Kim into an object and both John and Chris treat her as such (Thuy too), but through all of that she perseveres and finds strength and power through her struggle. Surely you can't deny that Vietnamese and Thai woman were treated as objects during the this time period (and still today)? Why is the musical bad for putting this horrible truth in the spotlight? 

The women in Eclipsed are objects to the (unseen) male characters, and yet they're extremely complex characters. I'll admit they're more complex than Kim, but my point is that characters can be both unfortunate objects in their life situation and be still be complex at the same time. "

Very well said, WhizzerMarvin.  But only if some people (like A Director) do not constantly only focus on the unfortunate object part. Because that's what's keeping them from seeing the whole picture. They basically judge the character based on a shallow impression and refuse to look further. That's bad. Because her whole character arc reaches far beyond that.

The other thing is, like you explained, that this is about real history and what really happened. Maybe some people just can't handle facts or want to put their head in the sand for reality and just should not watch a show like this.

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 03:59 PM

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 4:26pm

Like I said before, I don't hate Miss Saigon. I'll probably see it when it tours again. But I think it's problematic. Also, I don't think we should excuse the issues of the show as being "based on things that really happened" unless they were based on true events--not just a messy thrown together generalization of things that might have happened during war times. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 5:03pm

So how should they have done it according to you?

[C4b2a3b]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 5:50pm

WhizzerMarvin said: "
Maybe I'm completely off base and someone can explain how Kim is just another stereotype and not as complex as I imagine her to be, but after years of familiarity with the show I don't see it.
 

"

I'm mostly a lurker of 10 years, but this topic is personal to me as a Vietnamese-American whose family and friends actually escaped the Vietnam War. So let me take a leap here and participate in the dialogue. 

The question WhizzerMarvin asks here is the essence of where this discussion has gone off track. While the debate could go on ad nauseum about whether or not Miss Saigon is good story-telling (Kim's complexity, brilliant score, balanced story), these topics are a distraction from larger issues with Miss Saigon. I have heard the repeated argument that Miss Saigon is story created by Caucasians for a predominantly Caucasians audience. Yet, this accusation also doesn't fully capture the problems of Miss Saigon, for if you read the 1992 Pulitzer Prize winning book Good Scent from a Strange Mountain, a White author can do a great job telling Vietnamese immigrant stories from a Vietnamese immigrant perspective. From the glasses of Vietnamese immigrant whose family lived through this, my biggest problem with Miss Saigon is that it reinforces and romanticizes a white savior narrative that distracts from and does not do justice to the complex, resilient, and rich stories of the Vietnamese diaspora. 

I cringe hearing Chris sing about saving Kim: "So I wanted to save and protect her. Christ, I am an American! How could I fail to do good?" Sure, my grandparents, aunts/uncles, and parents yearned to get to the United States during and after the Vietnam War, and while they ran into challenges (not the same ones as Kim in Miss Saigon), they overcame tremendous obstacles to make it happen without (or in spite of) a figure like Chris. This story would have been more intellectually stimulating had Kim not pinned all her hopes on Chris to rescue her. I shouldn't take the bait here, but to answer Dave's question about how Miss Saigon might have been written more culturally sensitive, I would be more supportive of Miss Saigon if the story ended with Kim and Tam on a plane to the US because she found another way to get out their situation. 

Pulling the lens back even further, the story of Kim, Chris, and the Engineer represent a single, fictionalized story of the war, but I fear that audience members have come away thinking, "I really understand the plight of the Vietnam war immigrants." While I don't mean to accuse you all of making this gigantic leap, I hope it's not unfair to say there are too many people who walked away from the theatre thinking "I know that was fiction, but so much of that actually happened!" and did nothing else to further their understanding of Vietnamese diaspora. I'll be honest and say I didn't read any further after seeing Eclipsed, even though it was a moving story. 

Again, I can't emphasize enough that I'm not trying to claim that any of you believe Miss Saigon to be true story. I don't think it's racist to enjoy Miss Saigon, but in 2017, we all should yearn for something better. The theatre community can do better to promote a more accurate voice of the Vietnamese immigrant history. In the late 80s, the children of the Vietnam War, like me, were still very young, and at that time works like Miss Saigon, and even Good Scent from a Strange Mountain, began the conversation about the complexities created by this war. I would love to see more playwrights like Qui Nguyen continue the conversation in a richer light and bring more roles for Asian actors and actresses to the stage. 

 

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 05:50 PM

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 6:30pm

Thank you for that post, C4b2a3b. You should lurk less and post more. :) 

Do you think it's giving the writers too much credit to think the creators wanted us to cringe at Chris' lyric that you cited above? Like they were exposing and critiquing the (white) American arrogance of people like Chris? I guess I've never taken that line at face value, never thought they were endorsing Chris' thinking, but rather showing how part of the problem his thinking is. I've never thought that we're supposed to believe Chris is a hero or protagonist of this story- Kim is the sole protagonist in my mind, but again maybe you think I'm giving the writers too much credit? 

I think you make a good point about fictional shows like Miss Saigon and Eclipsed. They aren't documentaries and they don't tell everyone's truths. They are fictionalized accounts of the Vietnam and Liberian civil wars. I do believe there is some truth in the events of both plays, and ideally both can be used as springboards for discussion and further investigation by viewers. 

I like your idea of letting Kim and Tam escape on their own to start a new life somewhere. It would be very similar to letting Mimi live at the end of Rent instead of following the plot of La boheme. They could have taken the outline of Madama Butterfly and given us a twist, hopeful ending. 

Did you see Chinglish a few years ago? I thought the play was interesting and Jennifer Lim gave an excellent performance. I would love to see more stories like that. 

[A Director]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 7:24pm

WhizzerMarvin - Here are comments from the authors about their show.  From my point of view, you are giving them too much credit.

MISS SAIGON, when we started writing, we were inspired by the idea of updating the story of sacrifice and the doomed love story of MADAM BUTTERFLY in a modern environment. But suddenly because we decided it was going to happen during the Vietnam War, which for us was a fabulous moment, being everyone is dancing on the edge of the volcano and that makes the stakes much higher.

You can raise the stakes and the music can follow and all that. It was amazing for us when MISS SAIGON opened in New York last time, not this time. We suddenly found ourselves in the middle of controversies. One was the equity controversy and the casting and importing of English actors to America, or non-Asians playing Asian characters. But the second one which was as important was that we realized that the Vietnam War wounds had not healed yet and we found the show had become a show about the Vietnam War and the love story and the sacrifice at the heart of the show was like unimportant. Some journalists were only talking about our opinion of the Vietnam War, which we didn't have an opinion about really.

The great thing with this production, which was a complete new production coming to Broadway, is that we have kind of taken back our story to its roots. The love story, the sacrifice, the mother's story with her child, are all again at the heart of the story and the war and events are back in the background where they belong. I hope that the people coming to see MISS SAIGON this time, and especially the young people too young to see it the first time, are going to see what we have written and not just another show about the Vietnam War. We've never written a show about the Vietnam War because we don't feel invited to do that.

Claude-Michel: The fact that it was possible to take MADAM BUTTERFLY's story and update it in the 70's is the best proof that the problem in the time of the original story could be used today to write the same because there is still value. It can happen tomorrow between an American G.I. and girl in Syria or Iraq. I learned yesterday that there were 700 American soldiers fighting in Iraq. It can happen anywhere. Originally, I wanted to do it when the American Army invaded the island of Grenada.

Alain: And no one says today that THE SOUND OF MUSIC is a musical about World War II. And it's the same! Hopefully, now MISS SAIGON is going to be a musical about a doomed love story in the time of a war. It happens to be the Vietnam War.

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 7:27pm

Or maybe even Chris and Ellen could have agreed to bring tam to America and get Kim a VISA? 

[Glitter]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 7:29pm

"I cringe hearing Chris sing about saving Kim: "So I wanted to save and protect her. Christ, I am an American! How could I fail to do good?" Sure, my grandparents, aunts/uncles, and parents yearned to get to the United States during and after the Vietnam War, and while they ran into obstacles (not the same ones as Kim in Miss Saigon), they overcame tremendous obstacles to make it happen without (or in spite of) a figure like Chris."

 

Isn't that the point?  We are SUPPOSED to cringe.  it's a ridiculous statement  (and in the Canadian production, sometimes got a laugh from the audience).  Miss Saigon to me is very much about the myth of the white saviour and the failure of the American Dream, and to think otherwise is to miss the complexity of it. 

Updated On: 3/13/17 at 07:29 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 7:42pm

WhizzerMarvin said: "the creators wanted us to cringe at Chris' lyric that you cited above? Like they were exposing and critiquing the (white) American arrogance of people like Chris? I guess I've never taken that line at face value, never thought they were endorsing Chris' thinking, but rather showing how part of the problem his thinking is. I've never thought that we're supposed to believe Chris is a hero or protagonist of this story- Kim is the sole protagonist in my mind"

I agree WhizzerMarvin. Again, very well spoken. Chris saying that line shows his thinking, but the beauty of these things is that it gives them a certain standpoint/character, that we as an audience don't necessarily have to agree with. It's kind of weird that some people see Chris as a hero or protagonist because I don't see him like that at all. If anything, he is written as the opposite. In any case, Chris' point of view, or how he likes to see himself is by no means per definition how the audience sees him. 

Isn't it kind of silly that we have to explain this in the first place? This is the basis of storytelling and art.

You can't expect to agree with the rationale of every character, demand it to be the same as yours and like to erase all things that you don't like.

I am so glad that it is not written so culturally sensitive because people were not, and the world is not. I like to disagree with characters and cringe at times. That's storytelling. You might like every bad character immediately apologizing for their actions, every minority not being dependent in any way and an ending more to your liking, but that's not how it works.

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 07:42 PM

[Fan123]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 8:10pm

Interesting discussion. I tend to take the approach that the show is indeed a deconstruction of the white saviour male / passive, adoring Asian female stereotype, even if not the most subtle or artful example of such. However, I also agree that seeing more varied types of Asian stories on stage would be a good thing. As a side note, I also wonder if some of the "greatest love story" stuff is more for marketing purposes than anything else. That phrase is going to sell more tickets to a sizeable portion of the audience (read: us white people) than "white people screw things up: the musical", more accurate though the latter may be.

Although I don't necessarily feel bound to agree with what the show's creators thought they were writing about, here are some further thoughts from Richard Maltby (IIRC) on Chris, from the book 'The Musical World of Boubil and Schonberg' by Margaret Vermette:

"The characters make the story, and Alain and I spent endless amounts of time talking about the characters and what sort of people they were, especially Chris. He was the centre of our discussions because he was the character furthest away from Alain and Claude-Michael's sensibility. In their early draft he was the same callous American that Pinkerton was. In order to build up the backstory we started asking ourselves questions like, 'Where was he from and why was he in Vietnam?' Well, we decided he was probably drafted, probably a redneck, yet his best friend was probably black, because in the war odd things happen. In the South a redneck would not talk to a black guy, but in the war they could become buddies. He probably served in Vietnam and went home after the war. But veterans were not welcomed back. He had nothing going for him at home - no trade, no experience - so he re-upped. All the Americans in Vietnam in 1975 were there by choice. In the army he would have been well paid, better than in the United States. The work was relatively minimal; he probably drove a car for somebody in the Embassy, and he was in the pleasure pit of the world. So we worked out the facts of what it meant to be an American in Saigon at that time, in order to place Chris in context. He ceased to be a Pinkerton. While not intellectual, Chris gets what's happening  in Vietnam. He understands that there's something wrong in still going out to the bars, with the drinking, the drugs, and the bargirls, when the city is about to fall. He doesn't want to do it anymore. In his non-intellectual way he understands the big issues. Basing Chris in reality allowed us to write the breakdown scene in Act II. I'm more proud of that than anything else, because in this scene Chris admits to all sorts of unspeakable things. It's not just the breakdown of a man who fell in love and couldn't help the girl. It reflects the nervous breakdown of America's involvement in Vietnam and hit has big reverberations. Chris admits that he never really understood Kim or her country, and at the end fled back to the safety of a woman from his own world. Chris is the most interesting character to me and funnily enough he turned out to be the centerpiece of the casting of the show. When the show had a strong Chris, as it did when we opened in London with Simon Barrowman, then it really works, but if it had a weak Chris then the story lost focus. Kim was a more straightforward character..."

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 08:10 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 8:28pm

Interesting read! I agree that Chris is a very complex character and he is not very straightforward. It makes it all the more tragic that he later admits to have never really understood Kim or the country, which also shows in earlier scenes such as the ceremony, which makes his relationship with Ellen seem much stronger than his relationship with Kim. It does make him very human though, people are avoiders and often pulled into situations that they don't really know how to handle. Chris tries to convince himself that he is a good person.

Updated On: 3/11/17 at 08:28 PM

[C4b2a3b]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 9:08pm

That means a lot, WhizzerMarvin! I value your opinions and analyses so much. 

I had wanted to catch Chinglish, but was in graduate school at the time. I had read such good things about it, and I hope I get another opportunity to see it.

MarvinWhizzer, after reading A Director's interview with the authors and Fan123's snippet, it seems like there were ways the writers were trying to highlight American arrogance, but I don't think the line in question is one of them ("Christ I am an American..." . For better or worse, the writers are heavy handed, and they let us know when we should think the characters are being ridiculous. At the end of The Confrontation, for example, when Ellen and Chris propose that Kim and Tam stay in Thailand with their financial support, the writers have John sing "you are talking like fools!" As an extension to the line "Christ I am an American!", songs like Bui Doi and Please also make me cringe, and I can't imagine the writers wanted this much cringe-factor :)

Fan123's highlights into Chris are really interesting, but I don't think it's far-fetched to call Chris a flawed hero/protagonist (if Walter White and Don Draper can be protagonists, then Chris certainly can too). I have so much respect for veterans and folks in the armed services, as I'm sure we all do, that they should have a character who accurately reflects their struggles too. 

To everyone else, it feels like you're all telling me "Look at all the complexities that you've missed!" You're damn right I missed stuff. It would be arrogant to say otherwise, but I think I've understood enough of the play to offer an opinion about what the piece offers as a whole. As I stated in my original post, the discussion about themes, plots, and complexity is a distraction from this yearning I have for stories of Vietnamese immigrants that do our journey justice. 

I get that Miss Saigon is art and is open to all sorts of interpretation, but the emphasis of my original post is a lack of roles from an Asian/Vietnamese voice. I am not trying to convince you to stop liking Miss Saigon. Again, my bigger issue is that people have walked away thinking (incorrectly) they've received an education about what it was like for an Vietnamese immigrant after the war. I don't presume any of you think that, but in 2017, we can do a better than Miss Saigon to reflect the voice of the Vietnamese diaspora (Vietgone, for example). 

Updated On: 3/12/17 at 09:08 PM

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 10:19pm

Just wanted to add that I appreciate this discussion and these well thought out answers. Wish the app was better so we could "like" or acknowledge responses in some way without having to quote. 

[theatregoer3]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 11:26pm

Loving this discussion! I have so much to say - mostly just praise for you all! But for now I will just say to C4b2a3b's point that growing up, Miss Saigon was the only point of reference I had for the Vietnam War. They never taught it in school and I didn't catch other films about it until later in life - not like any of those were kind to the Vietnamese! But as a kid, I really did think I knew all about the Vietnam war because I saw this show. I certainly knew more about it than my peers who knew literally nothing about it. Now, that's not the fault of the creators of this show but I think it does say something. (What it says, I don't entirely know!)

Still, I do remember that the show also provided me an example (albeit fictional) of the victims of a US-led war and in doing so opened my eyes to the realization that the US was fallible. I was a pre-teen and I hadn't seen an example of that prior to seeing this. My history lessons ended at WWII and only spoke of how we "saved the day".

I will also note that the writers are French so I would assume they think most Americans have the foolish idea that they are above the rest of the world and can save everyone.

Thanks all for making such great contributions to this discussion and not getting mean or snarky but bringing up thoughtful points of view. Warms my heart!

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/12/17 at 6:28am

I think it's also important to realize that 1 story or show can never cover all the people's journeys. Some people might like to see other stories too, but to blame a show for not including all those stories is not fair.

[jacobsnchz14]

Posted: 3/12/17 at 1:53pm

Any update on an alternate schedule? Have a ticket for May and would live to try to see Eva. 

[SugarButterFlour86]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 11:46am

I saw the show Saturday evening. It was great to see a professional staging of the show. Seeing that the music to the show, in my opinion is iconic in it's own right, I was not fond of the lyric changes. I don't know if they were trying to update currency on language or not, but I was not ready for it. Especially the lyric changes in "Heat of Saigon" and if I recall correctly, "Movie In My Mind" was touched as well. Those numbers, I feel are the songs that get the show on its way... and I missed the original lyrics. The original lyrics I felt aren't "dated' by any means. I look for a brand new staging or in realm of designs in a revival I choose to see, and did not care so much lyric/libretto changes. The company is doing a great job with the show, and glad I can say I saw this production. I was too young to catch the original but respect whole-heartedly the original production/concept. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 1:49pm

Babe_Williams said: "Ellen's response to Kim's proposition that they take Tam: 'we want kids of our own.'"

I'm not completely sure what point was being made by this observation, but I find Ellen's response not only plausible, but likely. I have several relatives and friends who have bemoaned their personal struggles to conceive with their respective partners and gone to extraordinary scientific lengths to do so. When I asked them why they did not adopt instead, the reply was always the same: "We want the child to be ours".

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 2:25pm

WhizzerMarvin said: "I like your idea of letting Kim and Tam escape on their own to start a new life somewhere. It would be very similar to letting Mimi live at the end of Rent instead of following the plot of La boheme. They could have taken the outline of Madama Butterfly and given us a twist, hopeful ending."

That would indeed have been a twist, but then the critics would likely have deemed it "Disneyfied fluff".

Updated On: 3/13/17 at 02:25 PM