Sweeney Todd... Sondheim's masterpiece?

[laura is broadway]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 5:57pm

Many seem to feel that Sweeney is Sondheim's masterpiece, and though I adore the show, I would not consider it his "masterpiece". I would argue, though perhaps it wasn't a great a financial success, that Sunday In the Park with George is his masterpiece. I find the lyrics in this show to be his most impressive, and the show affected me more deeply than any other ever has- a feeling the Sweeney has never come close to for me.

Don't get me wrong, I love Sweeney Todd, and have gained something from it, but not to the extent that some seem to feel it should. Aspects of it seem to be a bit too melodramatic for me to relate to... For example, Anthony immediately bursting into "Johanna" simply from hearing her voice and catching a glimpse of the girl... It's always been difficult for me to believe the love-at-first-sight idea in any story.


I might be completely wrong, and I would love to be corrected. Can anyone provide proof of Sweeney Todd being Sondheim's masterpiece?

[blaxx]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:15pm

Proof? As in?

The score itself is monumental - far better than any of his other shows.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:24pm

I think I would consider it his masterpiece. The score and book are just brilliant and work perfectly hand in hand. And anyway, Sweeney IS a melodrama.

~Steven

[James885]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:26pm

I certainly consider Sweeney Todd to be his masterpiece. As blaxx said, the breadth and depth of the score is stunning. You can listen to it all day, and each time discover something new. And while I think that Sondheim's lyrics for Sunday are wonderful, the lyrics for Sweeney Todd are genius.

Updated On: 10/30/08 at 06:26 PM

[BustopherPhantom]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:27pm

I consider SWEENEY TODD a masterpiece, mostly because, of all Sondheim's shows, it's the one in which book and score congeal most successfully.

And it helps that the score is absolutely brilliant: hilarious and heartfelt (I find new things in it every time I listen).

(and I was never a big fan of SUNDAY... sorry.)

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:32pm

I'd say either Sweeney or A Little Night Music. Personally, I find Night Music near flawless, just gorgeous music. However, Sweeney is so ambitious and overwhelming that it wins out.

[laura is broadway]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:40pm

By proof I mean reasons. Like, what makes this score superior to his others?

[binau]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:41pm

I don't think Sunday could ever be considered Sondheim's best show because of the second act.

Sweeney is just so amazing, and regarding Johanna/Anthony I think the innocence/almost ridiculousness of Anthony was intentional. At least that's what I feel; It's not a 'true' and 'genuine' love story subplot but just this naive 'irony'. (Well hardly Ironic, but I can't think of how to describe what I feel at all).

[laura is broadway]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:44pm

and btw, I definitely agree that the score is phenomenal. But I find many of his scores to be phenomenal, and it's hard for me to grasp what exactly makes this score superior.

[Weez]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:51pm

I prefer the second act of SITPWG. It's like ITW - sure, you could present the first act on its own and have a lovely story, but it's the second act that gives it deeper meaning. I could listen to the song 'Putting It Together' all day.

I believe 'Sweeney Todd' is Sondheim's finest. In fact, I willingly say "I believe 'Sweeney Todd' is the best musical ever written". (I throw in "I believe" as a safeguard against "OMG opinions can't be right or wrong!" and also in recognition of the fact it's nigh-impossible to put one show above ALL others, but I do mean "best" as opposed to "favourite".) I don't have many issues with it (Johanna and Anthony are idiots, but I can overlook that) but the brilliance batters those into submission.

The score is wonderful; beautiful, rich, full, chilling, unsettling. It sounds FABULOUS played by a full symphony orchestra complete with pipe organ. But it also works and is totally effective when pared down and played by a handful of actors. Not all scores work so well when played by a lesser orchestra ('Les Mis' is coming unfortunately to mind), and the fact that 'Sweeney' does is testimony not only to Sarah Travis's hard work but also Sondheim's inarguable genius.

Some scores aren't technically very good, but given the right cast, they can be fabulous. 'Sweeney Todd' is the opposite; it's so sublime that even Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham Carter's best efforts can't keep it down.

And y'know what? It's accessible. It's a show about serial killing, cannibalism, vengeance, and lies. And yet I clicked with it on my very first listen. Not all Sondheim is such easy work.

Updated On: 10/30/08 at 06:51 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 6:52pm

My vote goes to Follies.

[defyingravity11]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 7:03pm

The Johanna/Anthony relationship is a satire: "I knew I'd be with you one day even not knowing who you were." It's poking fun at the convention of love at first sight.

[Weez]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 7:09pm

Just because it's presented in a valid and relevant light doesn't make them any more likeable.

[jewishboy]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 7:11pm

To reiterate what Blaxx said, you already have the score...

But, I think it depends on how you want to define "masterpiece." If you want to define it by emotional impact, then that is very subjective. I consider "Follies" as the most emotional of all of Sondheim's work, but it has its flaws. And there is no doubt that’s part of what makes it such an emotionally impacting and personal score. However, if we consider “masterpiece” as a work of supreme artistic and intellectual skill (Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary), then the argument might become narrower. I honestly don't think “Sweeney’s” score has any flaws (possibly save for the rehashing of all “old” music in the final sequence, but I think it’s used in such a distinct partnership with the characters and book that it’s excusable), and there is such a depth and richness in the underscoring, as well as in the songs, which I think along with “A Little Night Music” (a close second) makes the score, especially when considering how it supports the libretto throughout the show, Sondheim's masterpiece. But, there are differences in Sondheim’s composing/writing for his scores in the 60s/70s compared to his scores of the 80s. “Sweeney Todd,” along with his earlier scores, has a more "linear" score and plot than shows such as “Sunday…” and “Into the Woods,” so I think that might add to why his “mastery” really shines through in “Sweeney’s” score. Finally, in my opinion, all of Sondheim's scores seem to be an experiment of his intellectual and artistic creativity in writing for musical theater (including musical comedy), but I think the mastery of Sondheim’s score for “Sweeney Todd” comes from its completeness and scope, which just goes "beyond" the artistic and intellectual accomplishments in the score for “Sunday in the Park With George.”

[explorer]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 7:16pm

I love Sweeney Todd! My fav however is Follies!

[DrewBill]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 7:43pm

Echoing an important point mentioned above, I think "Sweeney Todd" is Sondheim's masterpiece for its sense of "completeness" -- it is a clear intellectual and artistic statement beginning to end. It's his one show where nothing can be added or edited without ruining its perfection.

(I'm of course only speaking of the stage show -- I know things were edited out of the film, but film is a different medium.)

While "Sunday" is certainly brilliant, it doesn't quite work the same way. Clearly, the first act can stand alone (as it did early on). And many find an artistic "dissonance" between the first and second acts -- while the second act has its high points, it still seems like an interesting afterthought, and not really an essential part of a greater whole.

Updated On: 10/30/08 at 07:43 PM

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 8:12pm

"Sweeney Todd" is most definitely Sondheim's masterpiece, in my opinion.

It's not only HIS most stunning, striking, beautiful, and emotional score, but it's one of the most stunning, striking, beautiful, and emotional scores ever written by ANYONE.



Weez-

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more!

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 8:18pm

Why does he have to have only one masterpiece?

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 8:29pm

I would say that in the entire musical theatre canon, certainly several of Sondheim's musicals stand out as masterpieces. But in examining his works alone, "Sweeney Todd" rises above the others as his BEST musical in my view.

I took the original poster's use of "masterpiece" to mean his "best" and one can really only have one "best", even if he has several "extraordinary"s.

[CurtisTaylorJr2]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 8:37pm

Without a doubt, it's his masterpiece, the score has such depth and fits perfectly with every part of the story.

[cfmiller]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 9:52pm

Surely Sondheim has been asked this question before? Has he answered it?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 9:59pm

It was a masterpiece in its day.

Then again, so was I.

[laura is broadway]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 10:02pm

I definitely agree with a lot that has been said... I'm listening to the score now, and it's so beautiful.
And yes I've noticed before that the Johanna/Anthony relationship is a kind of satire, but it still bothers me to have slightly unrealistic characters in a show that is about very real human emotions. Then again, I guess this is no necessarily Sondheim's doing, and therefore can't be seen as a flaw of his score.

Anyway, I guess I can agree that Sweeney is his best work. It's unfortunate with the film and a local community theatre production here, it' s become so popular amongst the general public (at least here) that I sub-consciously think of it as a lesser show... which I know is absolutely ridiculous, and shouldn't affect me at all, but sometimes it does .
Also, for me personally, I find it not as relatable as some of his other shows- For example, I really identify with Dot in Sunday, but my life experiences are such that there is not a character in Sweeney Todd that I specifically identify with. This is also probably why it's a bit more difficult for me to accept Sweeney Todd as his masterpiece.

But then again, it's also difficult to argue that it's not.

[laura is broadway]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 10:03pm

double post! Updated On: 10/30/08 at 10:03 PM

[wickedfan]

Posted: 10/30/08 at 10:35pm

You have to look at the piece as a whole. As blaxx said, the score itself is monumental and definitely the biggest achievement of Sondheim's. Whether the show is your favorite or not is one thing. That is a matter of opinion. That's the problem with the arts. Nothing is ever good or bad by fact because there is always someone out there who disagrees with the general consensus. As Hamlet so wisely said, "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

When it comes to discussing Sweeney Todd as Sondheim's masterpiece you have to put your personal feelings towards the show and his others aside and look at it from a technical standpoint. Technically speaking, the score is his most complicated, most integrated (into the book wise), and by far largest work. The fact that he was able to complete the score at all is incredible itself. The fact that it's great makes it unbelievable. My favorite Sondheim is Into the Woods and I think his best written show is A Little Night Music (by far the strongest book any of his shows have). But Sweeney Todd is definitely his masterpiece.

Updated On: 10/30/08 at 10:35 PM