The Deceptively Nuanced Subject of Racial Specificity in Casting

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:01am

The other day, I was watching Bohemian Rhapsody and just marveling at the remarkable performance of Rami Malek as Freddie Mercury. Then, something occurred to me. Rami Malek does not sound like an especially Indian name. And I discovered that Rami is actually of Egyptian descent. Now, Egypt and India are fairly near each other, but, from fairly surface level research, I could not deduce much actual ancestral connection between Parsi Indians and Northern Egyptians. Now, Freddie is perhaps an interesting case in that his race is not necessarily integral to his story. I feel that if somebody who merely appeared African American but really wasn't was playing Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, for example, that it would be very odd because it is fairly essential to his story that he was African American. This raises the question, however, of Ethnic casting in Musical Theatre. My very first thought was "maybe I could play Usnavi in In the Heights after all!" I'm Filipino, which is actually more ancestrally related to Domican than Egyptian is to Parsi Indian. I heard somebody raise concern over Audra McDonald playing Mamma Rose, though I feel as if the real person having been white is a null point when it is really a work of historical fiction in which, again, the character's race is inessential. Something like In the Heights definitely concerns the race of its protagonist and its other characters, but Lin Manuel is Puerto Rican, which is the right general area, and they are quite related, but it still makes you wonder about how far the unspoken rules of racial casting goes. I feel most people who have played Maria or Anita in West Side Story are likely just "Hispanic" and not any specific descent. Is it just a matter of being believable? I feel I almost look more Latino than Asian. That raises the opposite question-- does that disqualify me from playing roles that mandate being Asian in a show like Miss Saigon? Can somebody who is racially ambiguous and believable as multiple races portray multiple different races onstage? What about Kristin Chenoweth playing Velma in Hairspray, who is supposed to be the whitest white person ever, despite being one fourth Cherokee? Is the appearance being believable to the race of the character in such instances the most important aspect, since of course any great actor should convincingly be able to portray the necessary emotion? To go back to Usnavi-- say you are presented with two men, one of whom is Dominican and one of whom is of Asian, Pacific Islander, or tangentially related Hispanic descent, with the second being more suited for the role vocally and dramatically, but both being largely acceptable for the role, would you cast the more ethnically accurate actor or the one who fits the role slightly better? Is this a slippery slope into allowing white people to play ethnic roles, which most people agree isn't great? What about in shows like the Mystery of Edwin Drood, where brown face was employed in order to satirize English Music Hall performances that it is a pastiche of? And what about in that same production that is playing up the overwhelming whiteness of all of its actors despite Chita Rivera being cast in a leading role? Again, is it merely the appearance of a race that allows casting in a role that demands a certain race? And this is to speak nothing of the issue of sexuality and gender identity sensitive casting for shows depicting LGBTQ+ individuals, though as a gender fluid gay man I personally find it fully acceptable for straight actors to portray gay roles and vice versa. These are just some of my thoughts and questions of the subject and I would love to hear from all of you rather knowledgeable folk who have doubtless been around a bit more and/or longer than I. 

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:09am

Go outside and take a nice long walk and breathe the fresh air. 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:10am

TotallyEffed said: "Go outside and take a nice long walk and breathe the fresh air."

I am not entirely sure what you are getting at but that does sound quite nice, yes

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:18am

All theatre and film is performed so at the end point it is always about the appearance of race, gender, ethnicity, etc. rather than some kind of essential truth about identity even if there has been a casting mandate to cast specific identities in the roles.

Updated On: 12/9/24 at 10:18 AM

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:21am

sinister teashop said: "All theatre and film is performed so at the end point it is always about the appearance of race, gender, ethnicity, etc. rather than some kind of essential truth about identity even if there has been a casting mandate to cast specific identities in the roles."

Thank you for your valuable perspective. If not already apparent, I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on the matter but I think that ultimately aligns with what personally benefits me and therefore I have little reason to object to this opinion. 

[Owen22]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:23am

This question comes up again and again in various forms.  Should a gay character only be played by an IRL gay person?  Should a character of Jewish heritage be only played by a Jew?  The argument against this is: actors should be able to play anyone.  That is acting (I happen to agree with this).

This is different than "Colorblind Casting".  Where it's usually a black person who, because of the dearth of writing for their race, play roles traditionally played by white folk. It's about giving these fine performers more opportunities.  Usually they are "pretending" to be white, that the other characters see them as white (this sometimes seem impolitic to say out loud, so people avoid this definition, but it is what it is.  It's theatre, go with it).

However, there are some shows that cast colorblind as a sort of gimmick to get at a possible deeper truth.  It's easier to do this with historical figures, to cast the white Hamilton characters with very obvious immigrant heritage people of color or Gypsy, where, without a change in the script, it examines what an alternative history might look like if African Americans had somehow gotten to a point that they could headline Vaudeville and/or burlesque.

Updated On: 12/9/24 at 10:23 AM

[Kad]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:29am

Casting by appearance is inelegant and imperfect- it often comes at the expense of people of mixed heritage, denies the experience of people whose backgrounds don't fit into preconceptions, or flattens an entire group of very different backgrounds into one (ie - "Asian"). But I think it's also the least worst solution to a fraught issue, because the alternatives are ignoring race entirely, resorting to blackface or its equivalents, or having performers somehow prove their heritage.

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:31am

BeingAlive44Ever said: "TotallyEffed said: "Go outside and take a nice long walk and breathe the fresh air."

I am not entirely sure what you are getting at but that does sound quite nice, yes"


Just trying to prepare you for how off the rails this thread might go…

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:32am

Owen22 said: "This question comes up again and again in various forms. Should a gay character only be played by an IRL gay person? Should a character of Jewish heritage be only played by a Jew? The argument against this is: actors should be able to play anyone. That is acting (I happen to agree with this).

This is different than "Colorblind Casting". Where it's usually a black person who, because of the dearth of writing for their race, play roles traditionally played by white folk. It's about giving these fine performers more opportunities. Usually they are "pretending" to be white, that the other characters see them as white (this sometimes seem impolitic to say out loud, so people avoid this definition, but it is what it is. It's theatre, go with it).

However, there are some shows that cast colorblind as a sort of gimmick to get at a possible deeper truth. It's easier to do this with historical figures, to cast the white Hamilton characters with very obvious immigrant heritage people of color or Gypsy, where, without a change in the script, it examines what an alternative history might look like if African Americans had somehow gotten to a point that they could headline Vaudeville and/or burlesque."

Wow how incredibly frank. I suppose there is a degree of truth in most of that, though it is somewhat harshly worded. At the end of the day, an actor is not their character, and I suppose there is quite a lot of strange anger from people of the wrong race being cast. I have heard so many people try to explain to me why The Little Mermaid's Ariel shouldn't be black. Not to defend that terrible film, but Ariel's race was not an issue with it and Ariel has been played by actresses of all different races on stage to great effect. I find that outrage of the completely arbitrary kind, such as that, is almost more common to see than outrage about somebody being the wrong kind of Hispanic for West Side Story.

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:39am

Kad said: "Casting by appearance is inelegant and imperfect- it often comes at the expense of people of mixed heritage, denies the experience of people whose backgrounds don't fit into preconceptions, or flattens an entire group of very different backgrounds into one (ie - "Asian"). But I think it's also the least worst solution to a fraught issue, because the alternatives are ignoring race entirely, resorting to blackface or its equivalents, or having performers somehow prove their heritage."

I should generally think I agree. I think that, in general, a broad audience cares very little about the fact that an Egyptian man is portraying a Parsi Indian. I hadn't thought of the alternate solutions, but considering them now I definitely do think that other options are perhaps more problematic. Given this new perspective, I am going to practice my Spanish in preparation of all of the Hispanic roles I will doubtlessly be considered for in the five shows ever that have been written for Hispanic performers, and buy some foundation several shades lighter so that I don't get relegated to one of the rotten Hispanic male roles in West Side Story. I suppose that is diving into an entire other issue, though, which is the relative lack of ethnic roles. Well, I feel there is something of a wealth of African American roles, as musical theatre was once segregated greatly and therefore shows like Showboat and Porgy and Bess are chock full of roles for Black people, but most other races only have a few options that don't have the extreme liability to be taken by white folks. Especially Asians, there are really only a handful of plays, and as far as commercially viable musicals, there is really only Miss Saigon that I can think of off of the top of my head. I suppose this is why color blind casting in musicals in which race is not a main topic is so important. Otherwise, shows would be pretty dang lopsided. ... Or, more so than they already are. It is nice to remember, though, that Broadway is thankfully far more diverse than Hollywood, at the very least. 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 10:40am

TotallyEffed said: "Just trying to prepare you for how off the rails this thread might go…"

Oh I understand. I am sure that all of these random people on the internet have very sound and civil opinions about the subject of race, I am not worried at all :D

...

You might say I am naive to the ways of the world

[Dreamboy3]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 2:42pm

Did you see Yellow Face?  That is what the play is all about. 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 6:28pm

Dreamboy3 said: "Did you see Yellow Face? That is what the play is all about."

I have heard of it but I have yet to watch it. I may well go to see it if there is a production but I didn't catch it recently on Broadway sadly. 

[MezzoDiva47]

Posted: 12/9/24 at 8:02pm

 

The title of this post alone sounds like someones phd dissertation that ppl sent to hell would be forced to read

 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 10:20am

MezzoDiva47 said: "The title of this post alone sounds like someones phd dissertation that ppl sent to hell would be forced to read"

You are quite right and that is rather funny 

[John Adams]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 11:30am

I've been thinking lately about why Fiyero isn't cast more often as a PoC.

There's been lots of chatter about how appropriate it is to cast Elphaba with a Black actress, yet there's never mention regarding the fact that skin color doesn't matter (In this unique circumstance). Regardless of the actor's natural skin tone, it will be erased by the green stage make-up.

Granted, the differences in characterization between those in McGuire's books, and those in the musicalized version are pretty vast. The original production of Wicked did, however, choose to include the painted, blue facial diamonds as part of Fiyero's make-up plot (this was later dropped). Why choose to include McGuire's superficial element, but ignore the racial element; that Arjikis are "ochre-skinned"?

Ochre is a warm tone that encompasses a range of colors from yellow to deep orange or brown, so the range of ethnicity would also be varied. Why not choose to always cast Fiyero as a PoC?

Taye Diggs is the only Fiyero I'm aware of who is an actor of color. He played the role for 6 weeks, and he was married to Idina Menzel at the time. I would like to see the role of Fiyero ALWAYS by cast with an actor of color.

Although Jonathan Bailey is a recognized heartthrob, and I'm sure he's wonderful in the role, I think the movie version missed an opportunity to extend its inclusivity in casting. I mean, Chu speaks frequently about the authenticity of the sets, so why not be "authentic" (referring to McGuire's original character) regarding Fiyero?

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 11:47am

MezzoDiva47 said: "

The title of this post alone sounds like someones phd dissertation that ppl sent to hell would be forced to read”

Or add “Harry Potter and” to the beginning of it. 

[darquegk]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 12:39pm

John Adams said: "I've been thinking lately about why Fiyero isn't cast more often as a PoC.

There's been lots of chatter about how appropriate it is to cast Elphaba with a Black actress, yet there's never mention regarding the fact that skin color doesn't matter (In this unique circumstance). Regardless of the actor's natural skin tone, it will be erased by the green stage make-up.

Granted, the differences in characterization between those in McGuire's books, and those in the musicalized version are pretty vast. The original production of Wicked did, however, choose to include the painted,blue facial diamonds as part of Fiyero's make-up plot (this was later dropped). Why choose to include McGuire's superficial element, but ignore the racial element; that Arjikis are "ochre-skinned"?

Ochre is a warm tone that encompasses a range of colors from yellow to deep orange or brown, so the range of ethnicity would also be varied. Why not choose to always cast Fiyero as a PoC?

Taye Diggs is the only Fiyero I'm aware of who is an actor of color. He played the role for 6 weeks, and he was married to Idina Menzel at the time. I would like to see the role of Fiyero ALWAYS by cast with an actor of color.

Although Jonathan Bailey is a recognized heartthrob, and I'm sure he's wonderful in the role, I think the movie version missed an opportunity to extend its inclusivity in casting. I mean, Chu speaks frequently about the authenticity of the sets, so why not be "authentic" (referring to McGuire's original character) regarding Fiyero?"

The musical Fiyero is a composite character with Avaric. In the book Fiyero is dark skinned, but serious, studious, intense and “woke.” The opposite of Avaric. 

Actors of color have played Fiyero onstage, but it’s not a designated role of color… probably because the optics are bad. “Lazy, immature, dumb, shallow and wants to dance and chase girls all the time” leans into some racial stereotypes when the role is distinctly radicalized. And at this point, “Dancing Through Life” and his attendant shallowness are too well established to retool the character.

[earbox]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 12:50pm

BeingAlive44Ever said: "Now, Egypt and India are fairly near each other"

Egypt and India are 3000 miles apart from each other.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 1:34pm

''I mean, Chu speaks frequently about the authenticity of the sets, so why not be "authentic" (referring to McGuire's original character) regarding Fiyero?''

Chu cast Elphaba with a black actress and Madame Morrible with a Southeast Asian actress. Doesn't that count for diversity? And if you want Fiyero to be ''authentic'' to Maguire's book, in the book Fiyero is married and has kids (something he's not in the stage show). During tryouts in San Francisco, they did try applying blue diamonds to Norbert Leo Butz's face, but at a distance, it looked like bruises, so they dropped them. By the way, Jonathan Bailey, who is incredibly charismatic as Fiyero in the film, wears blue contact lenses; he says the reason will become apparent in ''Wicked 2.''

 

Updated On: 12/10/24 at 01:34 PM

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 1:56pm

MezzoDiva47 said: "

The title of this post alone sounds like someones phd dissertation that ppl sent to hell would be forced to read

"

I feel like we're being tricked into arguing it for them.

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 3:03pm

everythingtaboo said: "MezzoDiva47 said: "

The title of this post alone sounds like someones phd dissertation that ppl sent to hell would be forced to read

"

I feel like we're being tricked into arguing it for them."

For those of us in the online also ran, never was, almost was and wannabe PHD candidate community. 

[Impeach2017]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 3:40pm

The only thing more tiresome than your masturbatory exercise, is that some will actually attempt to fathom it. 

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 8:25pm

darquegk said: "

The musical Fiyero is a composite character with Avaric. In the book Fiyero is dark skinned, but serious, studious, intense and “woke.” The opposite of Avaric."

And for what it's worth, Aaron Teoh is cast as Avaric in Part 2.

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/10/24 at 10:45pm

BeingAlive44Ever said: "The other day, I was watching Bohemian Rhapsody and just marveling at the remarkable performance of Rami Malek as Freddie Mercury. Then, something occurred to me. Rami Malek does not sound like an especially Indian name. And I discovered that Rami is actually of Egyptian descent. Now, Egypt and India are fairly near each other, but, from fairly surface level research, I could not deduce much actual ancestral connection between Parsi Indians and Northern Egyptians."

As I wrote here not too long ago, before one can have an intelligent conversation about casting and race (or, logically, any other attribute, one needs to understand the purpose of the "specificity" or lack thereof. Are you taking whatever action you are to provide undercast groups with opportunities? Or are you trying to cast actors who look the part? Are you trying to be color blind? Or are you trying to make a point with your casting choices? Your very long post doesn't sort this out. Now to make matters worse, you seem to misapprehend and therefore mangle the purpose for which you are aiming. And all of this is inspired by an example that is not even accurately stated. Mercury is not an "Indian" at all. He is Parsi, and they are from Persia. A large group of them moved to India as refugees, but that does not make the Indians any more than, say, Uzbeks who moved to Brooklyn or Queens are suddenly appropriate to play American cowboys (where verisimiltude is the intention).Parsis are Zoroastrians, not Muslims, not Hindu, not Christian. They worship fire. And Malek is a Coptic Christian. 

If someone thinks that Indians are under-represented in casting, they are not going to be satisfied having a Parsi cast. For that matter, Indians do not have a singular appearance any more than Americans do. 

So if you are actually interested, I would suggest beginning by building a working knowledge of the subject matter.