Who eez ze Most Vicious Villain of the Stage? — Page 2
#27
Posted: 11/27/06 at 8:21am
Not really.
"I'm tellin' you, the only times I really feel the presence of God are when I'm having sex and during a great Broadway musical." - Nathan Lane - Jeffrey
#28
Posted: 11/27/06 at 8:27am
Ahmelie-
The Witch is NOT the villian in ITW, by far. If anyone is the villian, it's everyone else. Every single person contributes to their own downfall, Act 2 is all about the facing the consequences of your actions. Most villians are snarky, manipulative and secretive. The Witch lays every card on the table, she knows all (Well, aside from how to stop what's happening from happening, and how to keep her daughter and her beauty), and she doesn't hesitate to say it. To call her the villian proves her lyric in "Last Midnight" correct (I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right/I'm the Witch/You're the world/I'm the hitch/I'm what no one believes/I'm the witch...etc)
end soapbox.
When it comes to villians, to me at least, the only one to ever really scare me was Madame Morrible, but that's cause I was WAY to naive when I saw Wicked back in April 04, and had NO clue what was coming.
The Witch is NOT the villian in ITW, by far. If anyone is the villian, it's everyone else. Every single person contributes to their own downfall, Act 2 is all about the facing the consequences of your actions. Most villians are snarky, manipulative and secretive. The Witch lays every card on the table, she knows all (Well, aside from how to stop what's happening from happening, and how to keep her daughter and her beauty), and she doesn't hesitate to say it. To call her the villian proves her lyric in "Last Midnight" correct (I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right/I'm the Witch/You're the world/I'm the hitch/I'm what no one believes/I'm the witch...etc)
end soapbox.
When it comes to villians, to me at least, the only one to ever really scare me was Madame Morrible, but that's cause I was WAY to naive when I saw Wicked back in April 04, and had NO clue what was coming.
http://www.youtube.com/huskcharmer
#29
Posted: 11/27/06 at 8:34am
"Ahmelie-
The Witch is NOT the villian in ITW, by far. If anyone is the villian, it's everyone else. Every single person contributes to their own downfall, Act 2 is all about the facing the consequences of your actions. Most villians are snarky, manipulative and secretive. The Witch lays every card on the table, she knows all (Well, aside from how to stop what's happening from happening, and how to keep her daughter and her beauty), and she doesn't hesitate to say it. To call her the villian proves her lyric in "Last Midnight" correct (I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right/I'm the Witch/You're the world/I'm the hitch/I'm what no one believes/I'm the witch...etc)
end soapbox."
I always considered her a villian but when put like that...you can't argue with it! lol
The Witch is NOT the villian in ITW, by far. If anyone is the villian, it's everyone else. Every single person contributes to their own downfall, Act 2 is all about the facing the consequences of your actions. Most villians are snarky, manipulative and secretive. The Witch lays every card on the table, she knows all (Well, aside from how to stop what's happening from happening, and how to keep her daughter and her beauty), and she doesn't hesitate to say it. To call her the villian proves her lyric in "Last Midnight" correct (I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right/I'm the Witch/You're the world/I'm the hitch/I'm what no one believes/I'm the witch...etc)
end soapbox."
I always considered her a villian but when put like that...you can't argue with it! lol
"I'm tellin' you, the only times I really feel the presence of God are when I'm having sex and during a great Broadway musical." - Nathan Lane - Jeffrey
#30
Posted: 11/27/06 at 2:12pm
Getting back to the Javert issue...everyone's right. He's not a villain per se, just an antagonist. He believes what he's doing is right, but it's the rigidity of his world view that does him in.
In fact, I've thought for a long time that Valjean and Javert are two sides of the same coin. (Just look at the reversed J and V sounds in their names.) Both men are single-mindedly dedicated to ideals; both are devout believers in God, although their concepts of God differ--Javert's is a severe Old Testament God, while Valjean's allows for mercy and redemption.
In fact, I've thought for a long time that Valjean and Javert are two sides of the same coin. (Just look at the reversed J and V sounds in their names.) Both men are single-mindedly dedicated to ideals; both are devout believers in God, although their concepts of God differ--Javert's is a severe Old Testament God, while Valjean's allows for mercy and redemption.
#31
Posted: 11/27/06 at 2:36pm
WORST BROADWAY VILLIAN:
The man with the ringing cell phone 3 rows back
The man with the ringing cell phone 3 rows back
#32
Posted: 11/27/06 at 2:43pm
I definately agree with Audrey II! He is the embodiment of all the evils in human nature.
#33
Posted: 11/27/06 at 2:43pm
The Witch is NOT the villian in ITW, by far. If anyone is the villian, it's everyone else. Every single person contributes to their own downfall, Act 2 is all about the facing the consequences of your actions. Most villians are snarky, manipulative and secretive. The Witch lays every card on the table, she knows all (Well, aside from how to stop what's happening from happening, and how to keep her daughter and her beauty), and she doesn't hesitate to say it. To call her the villian proves her lyric in "Last Midnight" correct (I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right/I'm the Witch/You're the world/I'm the hitch/I'm what no one believes/I'm the witch...etc)
end soapbox.
I've thought about all of those things, and I think that's what makes her an intriguing villan. She makes all the characters face what they don't want to face. If it's anyone's fault, it is hers. The most heart-breaking songs in that show, for me, are No More and Children Will Listen, and they are made heart-breaking by how hard The Baker's Wife tried to have a child, and how much she wanted it, and that she never really got the chance to watch her son grow up.
I said before, there isn't an intriguing villan that's very clear cut. What makes a villan interesting are their motives.
end soapbox.
I've thought about all of those things, and I think that's what makes her an intriguing villan. She makes all the characters face what they don't want to face. If it's anyone's fault, it is hers. The most heart-breaking songs in that show, for me, are No More and Children Will Listen, and they are made heart-breaking by how hard The Baker's Wife tried to have a child, and how much she wanted it, and that she never really got the chance to watch her son grow up.
I said before, there isn't an intriguing villan that's very clear cut. What makes a villan interesting are their motives.
Theatre is a safe place to do the unsafe things that need to be done.
-John Patrick Shanley
#34
Posted: 11/27/06 at 2:49pm
I'm going to have to agree with EugLoven on that one.
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#35
Posted: 11/27/06 at 4:08pm
Here is an earlier thread on the same subject, although this one spends a lot of time debating whether or not Mrs. Lovett and Sweeney are actually villains.
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=891645&boardname=bway
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=891645&boardname=bway
"You pile up enough tomorrows, and you'll find you are left with nothing but a lot of empty yesterdays. I don't know about you, but I'd like to make today worth remembering." --Harold Hill from The Music Man
#36
Posted: 11/27/06 at 5:05pm
I guess one could consider Radames an antagonist to Aida in the begining of the story, but as the show progresses they fall in love and things change, thats just how I see it. If anyone is a true villian per say, its Zoser.
Your aspirations are your possibilities-Samuel Johnson (and a little help from nomdeplume)
#37
Posted: 11/27/06 at 5:09pm
I have one everyone will agree on!
The Nazis in Cabaret.
*wins the thread*
:p
The Nazis in Cabaret.
*wins the thread*
:p
#38
Posted: 11/27/06 at 5:54pm
Nazis are villains no matter what context you use them in. I did a whole list of this thing once.
Armand--Lestat
Ralph Nickleby, Sir Mulberry Hawk, and Wackford Squeers--Nicholas Nickleby
Claudius--Hamlet
Iago--Othello
Javert and Thenardier--Les Miserables
Sweeney Todd, Mrs. Lovett, and Judge Turpin
Velma and Amber Von Tussle--Hairspray
Edmund and Goneril and Regan--King Lear
Roy Cohn--Angels in America
Edward Hyde--Jekyll and Hyde
Those two Scottish people--The Scottish Play
Audrey II and Orin--Little Shop of Horrors (Mushnik isn't so much a villain as a total douchebag)
The Wicked Witch of the West--The Wizard of Oz (then everyone sees Wicked and pummels Mattbrain to death for saying so)
Richard III--goes without saying
Mr. Potter--It's A Wonderful Life
Don John--Much Ado About Nothing
J.J. Hunsecker--The Sweet Smell of Success
Margaret--Henry VI
Marie Esposito--The Most Happy Fella
Zoser--Aida
Jud Fry--Oklahoma
Curtis Taylor Jr.--Dreamgirls
Benny--Rent
Gaston--Beauty and the Beast
Chauvelin--The Scarlet Pimpernel
Miss Hannigan--Annie
Arkadina--The Seagull
Scar--The Lion King
Madame Morrible--Wicked
Glen Guglia--The Wedding Singer
Thuy--Miss Saigon
The Media--Floyd Collins
Hugh Dorsey and Tom Watson--Parade
Willie Conklin--Ragtime
The Warden--Kiss of the Spider Woman
Mayor Shinn and Charlie Cowell--The Music Man
Killer Queen and Khashoggi--We Will Rock You
Racism and general intolerance--A helluva lotta shows
Armand--Lestat
Ralph Nickleby, Sir Mulberry Hawk, and Wackford Squeers--Nicholas Nickleby
Claudius--Hamlet
Iago--Othello
Javert and Thenardier--Les Miserables
Sweeney Todd, Mrs. Lovett, and Judge Turpin
Velma and Amber Von Tussle--Hairspray
Edmund and Goneril and Regan--King Lear
Roy Cohn--Angels in America
Edward Hyde--Jekyll and Hyde
Those two Scottish people--The Scottish Play
Audrey II and Orin--Little Shop of Horrors (Mushnik isn't so much a villain as a total douchebag)
The Wicked Witch of the West--The Wizard of Oz (then everyone sees Wicked and pummels Mattbrain to death for saying so)
Richard III--goes without saying
Mr. Potter--It's A Wonderful Life
Don John--Much Ado About Nothing
J.J. Hunsecker--The Sweet Smell of Success
Margaret--Henry VI
Marie Esposito--The Most Happy Fella
Zoser--Aida
Jud Fry--Oklahoma
Curtis Taylor Jr.--Dreamgirls
Benny--Rent
Gaston--Beauty and the Beast
Chauvelin--The Scarlet Pimpernel
Miss Hannigan--Annie
Arkadina--The Seagull
Scar--The Lion King
Madame Morrible--Wicked
Glen Guglia--The Wedding Singer
Thuy--Miss Saigon
The Media--Floyd Collins
Hugh Dorsey and Tom Watson--Parade
Willie Conklin--Ragtime
The Warden--Kiss of the Spider Woman
Mayor Shinn and Charlie Cowell--The Music Man
Killer Queen and Khashoggi--We Will Rock You
Racism and general intolerance--A helluva lotta shows
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ATTENTION FANS: I will be played by James Barbour in the upcoming musical, "BroadwayWorld: The Musical."
#39
Posted: 11/27/06 at 6:11pm
Villain implies evil - the definition from dictionary.com reads:
1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.
By this definition it's someone who is evil for the SAKE of being evil, NOT with an ulterior motive which they think is the right thing to do. I would also infer from this that "villain" implies someone who KNOWS what they are doing is evil (Thuy, Javert, Benny, and The Witch in ITW fit the bill of those who may be antagonists, but they are NOT evil- as do most of the "villains" listed on this thread).
Evil for the SAKE of evil: Orran in Little Shop (you could argue that Audrey 2 isn't), Ursula in The Little Mermaid (well, soon to be on stage), Scar in Lion King, Percival Glyde...
but the winner for MOST vicious villain would, without a doubt would be Edward Hyde.
1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.
By this definition it's someone who is evil for the SAKE of being evil, NOT with an ulterior motive which they think is the right thing to do. I would also infer from this that "villain" implies someone who KNOWS what they are doing is evil (Thuy, Javert, Benny, and The Witch in ITW fit the bill of those who may be antagonists, but they are NOT evil- as do most of the "villains" listed on this thread).
Evil for the SAKE of evil: Orran in Little Shop (you could argue that Audrey 2 isn't), Ursula in The Little Mermaid (well, soon to be on stage), Scar in Lion King, Percival Glyde...
but the winner for MOST vicious villain would, without a doubt would be Edward Hyde.
Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.
#40
Posted: 11/27/06 at 6:20pm
I can't believe nobody said Mrs. Meer's from Thoroughly Modern Millie.
"Oh look at the time, three more intelligent plays just closed and THE ADDAMS FAMILY made another million dollars" -Jackie Hoffman, Broadway.com Audience Awards
Updated On: 11/27/06 at 06:20 PM
#41
Posted: 11/27/06 at 6:20pm
If you're evil for the sake of being evil, and that's your motivation. Than you're one dimensional... and boring. Or crazy... and boring.
Someone find me an exception.
Someone find me an exception.
Theatre is a safe place to do the unsafe things that need to be done.
-John Patrick Shanley
#42
Posted: 11/27/06 at 7:05pm
Ahmelie-
Ursula was totally not boring, and she was pretty much one-dimensional, so was Maleficent (She's down right scary).
I'm still not sure the Witch can be called the true Antagonist, considering they all are their own un-doings in a lot of cases. Maybe that's me.
Ursula was totally not boring, and she was pretty much one-dimensional, so was Maleficent (She's down right scary).
I'm still not sure the Witch can be called the true Antagonist, considering they all are their own un-doings in a lot of cases. Maybe that's me.
http://www.youtube.com/huskcharmer
#43
Posted: 11/27/06 at 7:10pm
All of the Nazis in The Sound of Music
#44
Posted: 11/27/06 at 7:23pm
Bill Sikes-"Oliver"
#45
Posted: 11/27/06 at 7:43pm
ahmelie - I didn't say that there was no motivation - evil CAN be a motivation - and it doesn't make a character uninteresting. Dr. Evil is evil for evil's sake - he's not uninteresting. Ditto most of the Disney villains.
The subject title is "most vicious villain" - we're not looking for most complex or conflicted. I would still say the character that fits both words (vicious and villain) would be Edward Hyde - a merciless killer who kills for no reason other than to kill. Orran may be the most sadistic, but Hyde wins for most vicious unless someone can think of someone worse...
The subject title is "most vicious villain" - we're not looking for most complex or conflicted. I would still say the character that fits both words (vicious and villain) would be Edward Hyde - a merciless killer who kills for no reason other than to kill. Orran may be the most sadistic, but Hyde wins for most vicious unless someone can think of someone worse...
Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.
#46
Posted: 11/27/06 at 8:09pm
The subject title is "most vicious villain" - we're not looking for most complex or conflicted.
Okay, that's true. I was mostly looking at favorite villans, so I stand corrected.
But I still believe that a character whose only motivation is evil is a boring character. But I'm the kind of gal who likes shows for their characters more than anything else, the more complex, the better.
Okay, that's true. I was mostly looking at favorite villans, so I stand corrected.
But I still believe that a character whose only motivation is evil is a boring character. But I'm the kind of gal who likes shows for their characters more than anything else, the more complex, the better.
Theatre is a safe place to do the unsafe things that need to be done.
-John Patrick Shanley
#47
Posted: 11/27/06 at 8:23pm
currently i'd say scar and madame morrible
"Grease," the fourth revival of the season, is the worst show in the history of theater and represents an unparalleled assault on Western civilization and its values. - Michael Reidel
#48
Posted: 11/27/06 at 8:39pm
I suppose I agree with Hyde even though I dont find the stage version that scary, but I like the idea of Audrey II because who would suspect a plant killer.
Unless theres some sort of stage version of Hannibal Lecter?
Unless theres some sort of stage version of Hannibal Lecter?
#49
Posted: 11/27/06 at 9:42pm
Sir Percival Glyde
"The Woman in White"
"The Woman in White"
"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view - until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
To Kill A Mockingbird
To Kill A Mockingbird
#50
Posted: 11/27/06 at 10:21pm
Glide or Hyde--
Which can it be?
Is another more vicious
Than either he?
Which can it be?
Is another more vicious
Than either he?
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