Who really is Winthrop's Mom?

[mygfdontliveincanada]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 10:33am

So this just dawned on me yesterday...

In "The Music Man," we're told that Marian and Winthrop are brother and sister, and are never given any information to suggest otherwise. However, their mother is in her 50s-60s, meaning that if Winthrop is around age 10, he was conceived when his mother was 40-50, which would have been very rare at the turn of the century and still pretty rare even now.

Meanwhile, we know that Marian is a "sadder but wiser girl" who had some sort of intimate relationship with the former librarian of the town. I believe Winthrop is their love child and when he was born, Marian and Mrs. Peru decided to pass him off is Marian's brother to prevent town gossip.

Any thoughts?

[MisterRussell]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 10:44am

You have too much free time.

[iwearshoes]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 10:47am

I agree...and it is Paroo not peru

[MisterRussell]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 10:52am

...NOT that I want to indulge this thread in any way, but consider what a woman at the turn-of-the-century might look like after two children and a dead husband. For all we know, Mrs. Paroo is in her 40's (making her in her 30's when Winthrop was born). Pert Kelton may have been in her 50's or 60's in the film, but looks aren't necessarily facts in period pieces, especially in times before modern medicing extended the human lifespan.

[Enjolras77]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 10:58am

I was always under the impression that Harold Hill sang "The Sadder but Wiser Girl" as a way to deflect overtones that he was falling for the prim and proper librarian. That in fact, Marian Paroo wass the antithesis of the "Sadder but Wiser Girl".

Also, the ages of the Paroos are a bit vague. Nowhere is it stated that Mrs. Paroo is 50-60 years old, so it is conceivable that she could be in her mid to late 40's. That would put Marian being between 21 - 25 and her mother's age at around 20 - 25 when she was born. If Mrs. Paroo is ~45, Marian ~25, and Winthrop ~10 -- that would put Mrs. Paroo's age at around 35 when he was born. Not young -- but not too old by any means -- even for the turn of the century. I think the better explanation is that Winthrop was an "accident."

(Of course, to give your side some credence -- a lot of theatre groups do have a habit of casting Mrs. Paroo a little too old which WOULD make Winthrop's origin come into question)

[MisterRussell]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 11:23am

...didn't I JUST say that?

[Enjolras77]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 12:16pm

I was in the process of typing my response when you posted your lovely comment. I just kept being distacted here at work so I didn't finally post it until 6 minutes after yours. I didn't read your post until after mine was already there. I apologize for not being omniscient.

...and of course only my second paragraph is similar to your post :)

[avab802]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 12:22pm

I've heard that theory before, from the director of a community production I was in. I think it's a definite possibility. The lyrics to "Pick-A-Little" point to some sort of "unsavory" relationship between Marian and the former librarian.

[Wanna Be A Foster]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 12:32pm

I find it fun to speculate on the histories of characters in happy-go-lucky musicals like THE MUSIC MAN. When Tovah Feldshuh was in rehearsals for the Papermill's HELLO, DOLLY!, she and Carol Channing sat down with the New York Times to discuss Dolly's personal history and I found it really interesting.

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 12:34pm

I think it all depends on which cast it is.

[Enjolras77]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:02pm

Or the director's interpretation of the characters...

Going back to what I mentioned about Marian being the antithesis of the "Sadder but Wiser Girl", it is also usually accepted that "Pick-A-Little, Talk-A-Little" is just the overblown gossip of the town's self-proclaimed elite ladies who are presenting false accusations about someone they perceive as an outsider to their group. They invent the possible salacious relationship between Marian and the man "who never had a friend in this town till she came here" because of petty jealousies and because they don't like her taste in books.

I guess though, depending on the director's interpretation, it could be presented otherwise.

[circusliz]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:02pm

I thought that the rumors about Marian's relationship with Miser Madison were just that...rumors. Doesn't she inform Harold that Madison was like an uncle to her, and that the ladies of town spread gossip out of jealousy over her friendship with the richest man in town?

[Wanna Be A Foster]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:05pm

His first name wasn't *actually* "Miser" just so you know. They say it tongue-in-cheek: "Miser" Madison. To insinuate that Mr. Madison was a miser. His real first name isn't given.

[Over_the_Moon]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:26pm

Who said it was?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:28pm

Good call

Updated On: 10/3/06 at 01:28 PM

[circusliz]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:36pm

Wanna Be a Foster--

I'm quite aware that "Miser" is a word and not a proper first name. I was just going with how the character is identified in by the ladies of the town.

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:40pm

And who is Chip's Papa in BEAUTY AND THE BEAST?
They usually cast Mrs. Potts around 60!
and Chip is 7
so the Old Pot had him while she was a Pot,
must have been a difficult birth. Updated On: 10/4/06 at 01:40 PM

[Calvin]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:46pm

Chip's dad was a no-good fondue pot who was secrectly living a double life with Mr. Wok.

I like these back story speculations, too, but obviously, they have their dangers, as was seen in our Carrie/Mr. Snow discussion a few months ago.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 1:58pm

"However, their mother is in her 50s-60s, meaning that if Winthrop is around age 10, he was conceived when his mother was 40-50, which would have been very rare at the turn of the century and still pretty rare even now."

Why would it be rare for a woman to have a baby in her 40s? It probably wasn't desirable, but it's surely not impossible. My great grandmother had my grandmother and her two sisters when she was in her 20s and then when she was in her mid 40s got pregnant again and gave birth to a son.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 2:06pm

I think it's totally possible that Mrs. Paroo had Winthrop when she was in her 40's.

He is definitely not Marian's son.

And I know it was already pointed out, but Marian did not have a relationship with whomever owned the library - it was really her Uncle.

[jv92]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 3:11pm

I'm sure that when Trevor Nunn revives The Music Man, he'll take this thread into consideration.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 3:39pm

Actually, there would have been nothing rare about a women in her 40's or 50's having a baby in 1912.

[MTVMANN]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 5:15pm

Interesting!

You could be right.

[Kitzarina]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 5:41pm

I'm sure that when Trevor Nunn revives The Music Man, he'll take this thread into consideration.

Nearly made me spray my Salt & Vinegar Pringles on the monitor. Hilarious.

[elmore3003]

Posted: 10/3/06 at 6:11pm

Mrs Paroo has no reason to be in her 50s or 60s, although Pert Kelton was 50 or 51 when the show opened on Broadway. Meredith Willson based Marian Paroo on his mother, and she's no "sadder but wiser girl" but an ageing young woman who is the object of slander and speculation by a bunch of social superiors who later open their minds to her. Marian's ostracized because she is openminded and particular about the person to whom she makes a commitment, and, yes, she has the potential to become an old maid waiting for what she wants. Harold Hill sings the "Sadder but wiser Girl" thinking Marian is a woman with a past, as the Mayor's wife and her friends have suggested.