"WHY HAS THERE NEVER BEEN AN ALL-BLACK REVIVAL OF "GYPSY"?- Page 2

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/18/22 at 9:44pm

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "Sweet Jesus, the level of Pollyanna... I'd love to live in your world, my man."

It takes a unique person to say recognizing self-segregation is a "Pollyanna" vision of the world. What I said was the world is still very imperfect, we haven't achieved a completely integrated society, so most people aren't shocked by any production being dominated by one racial group to the general exclusion of others. That could be looked at as a criticism of our society, as much as anything. 

If you think it's Pollyannaish to suggest people can have their outlooks changed by seeing shows where anyone of any race can be cast in a role, because talent matters more than race, then I can only guess you don't think art has any influence.

Which is ironic, as I'm pretty sure as your growing up as a Jesus Christ Superstar fan, and have constantly had the image of an integrated Gospel story in your head, has had a lot to do with the positions you now hold about wanting to see more racial equality in casting across tv, movies and theater. Do you consider yourself a Pollyanna for holding this position? 

There's no great idealism in my post. It's mostly pragmatic, with some hopefulness for the future. But no absurd idealism to justify a Pollyanna accusation. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/18/22 at 9:57pm

ManOfLaMuncha said: "ChgoTheatreGuy said: "To me, it seems odd that as many revivals we have had for the musical "Gypsy", we have never had an all-black version of the show. I know that there, and are today many Black singers that could pull this off, even if one of the young up and coming girl singers would be interested.

3

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But in this instance, this is about a real "white" family....I mean it's not all fiction. I'm sure they doctored Gypsy Rose Lee's story a bit."

It's almost completely invented, which is one of the reasons its subtitle is "A Musical Fable." Gypsy Rose Lee's autobiography was also almost completely invented, and June Havoc's biographies written to counter them, were mostly made up, too. 

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 12/18/22 at 10:03pm

joevitus said: "...the image of an integrated Gospel story in your head..."

That's where you're wrong. It would be all-black.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 12/18/22 at 10:47pm

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "It was not just aimed at white audiences who couldn't accept an integrated cast. It was creating job opportunities for performers of color, period.

As for whether or not it's still needed today -- when you consider the latter reason for its existence, I say absolutely.As an industry pro, I marvel at movies and TV shows, and even theater, where virtually the entire cast is white, yet no one bats an eyelash over it; producers, writers, etc., are very rarely called out as (even unintentionally) racist for this phenomenon. At all. This cultural inertia is seen, whether stated explicitly or not, as the norm.

Minorities are under-represented (not represented is more like it) in roles that could be filled by persons of any color. And, not that I'm accusing anybody of deliberate ignorance (or worse), but I always get kind of suspicious when people say it was just about integration or call it an "identity gimmick" and imply -- or even outright state -- that we don't need that anymore...

My answer to all that is yes we do, and tough crap if you don't like it. Maybe you'll get something out of it, maybe you won't, but it's not for you, and not everything has to be. There is nothing wrong with reflecting the music, dance, and nuances that make up a specific culture through a familiar lens, especially if that culture is under-represented in media. If that stops you from buying a ticket, then maybe you need to ask yourself why."

I'd say they're VERY represented in the current Broadway / Theater world. Not saying that as a diss at all. Just a statement looking around at what's playing regionally, etc.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 2:31am

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "joevitus said: "...the image of an integrated Gospel story in your head..."

That's where you're wrong. It would be all-black."

Probably false just to get a zinger in, since you've already discussed how you really wanted a revival with Ted Neely and Ben Vereen switching off in the lead roles. That wouldn't have been an all-Black production, and you really wanted to see it happen.

But I wasn't talking about the ideal version in you head, I was talking about how the multi-racial casting that all stage versions and the movie version embraced likely made a positive impression on your mind as a kid and influenced you view that theater needs greater diversity. I note you evade the point that seeing mixed race casting has influenced your life and your view of race, a view you claim is Pollyannaish on my part. 

Updated On: 12/19/22 at 02:31 AM

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 9:53am

It was an idea that I was interested in and deeply engaged with at the time. (Also, not that it necessarily matters to that particular point, but I was not the prime mover on that attempt either, merely an admittedly very enthusiastic participant.) I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone.

As for what I considered Pollyanna-ish about your reply, I honestly planned not to address it, because I don't see you being talked out of what seems a deeply entrenched opinion, but how about I single out some ideas and quotes that I perceive as particularly naive and unrealistic (and, in some cases, no-doubt-unintentionally ignorant), and you think about them for a while, maybe talk to a few people of color about whether or not that sounds realistic or truthful in their experience.

Ideas like:

Self-segregation is a thing that exists, casting that is only diverse enough for the majority to be comfortable just reflects that reality! [As my mother often told me when a child, "Oh, honey..."]

Quotes like:

"I think the idea of an all-Black anything is just as much a backward step as an all-white cast."

"...most shows today clearly do have diverse casting, so there really isn't an issue that needs to be corrected here."

"...no one in here (including me) is going to condemn Hadestown or Hamilton for having a statistically unrealistic majority of people of color, or claim that this is a fraudulent view of reality."

That last one is especially hilarious in a "truth hurts" sort of way when you consider that, as recently as when it opened, Equity -- freaking Equity -- stepped up on behalf of its no doubt utterly disenfranchised white performers to chew out Hamilton for daring to specifically seek performers of color in its audition notice. (They buckled, in case you forgot how that turned out.) The mere suggestion that a part wasn't for a white performer led to an outcry and a change of wording in a casting call. But people of color are the fragile ones, and there's no issue to be corrected here...

Updated On: 12/19/22 at 09:53 AM

[Miserent]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 4:26pm

Not sure how “right” for the role she is, but I think the only current Broadway star who could potentially sell lots of tickets in this show would be Idina Menzel.

[romain2]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 9:01pm

Not on Broadway, but a few years back in Chicago, a theater company called Porchlight had a production of Gypsy where all the leads were played by Black actors. Chicago theater legend E. Faye Butler led the cast. And it received raves and some Jeff Awards, Chicago's version of the Tonys/Obies.

 

https://www.theatreinchicago.com/gypsy/reviews/9756/

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 9:23pm

QueenAlice said: "An “all black” production is really a conceit of the 1960s and 1970s for white audiences who couldn’t accept an integrated cast."

The conceit goes back to the early 1900's on Broadway but this is correct. It was less that black and white performers weren't comfortable sharing the same stage than audiences not being comfortable with it. Similarly, the first major black breakthough stars on Broadway like Bert Williams used elements of blackface to perform in because it was assumed that audiences would not accept black performers without it. 

Updated On: 12/19/22 at 09:23 PM

[ChgoTheatreGuy]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 11:46pm

I think that Keke Palmer would be amazing as Louise.  I am really not sure who I think would be a good Rose.  I don't know if Vanessa Williams would have the vocal range to pull it off.  Although I was really puzzled by the newspaper ads from when Tyne Daly was Rose, until I saw her and she scared the holy hell out of me!...

[NoItAll]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 11:53pm

Miserent said: "Not sure how “right” for the role she is, but I think the only current Broadway star who could potentially sell lots of tickets in this show would be Idina Menzel."

I can think of someone else—and a much better singer, to boot. Strange that.

Updated On: 12/19/22 at 11:53 PM

[Soaring29]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:02am

I feel like the cast of Gypsy is pretty small so I think the opportunities would be pretty thin which is the opposite of the intention of an all black cast.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:04am

Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic.

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 12:04 AM

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:14am

BWAY Baby2 said: "Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic."

Because it's a highly fictionalized account of GRL's life. And the reason for the thread is to give previously-marginalized folks a moment in the spotlight in a role they might knock out of the park. Something that your ignorant, idiotic reply ignores.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:17am

NoItAll said: "Miserent said: "Not sure how “right” for the role she is, but I think the only current Broadway star who could potentially sell lots of tickets in this show would be Idina Menzel."

I can think of someone else—and a much better singer, to boot. Strange that."

In real life, Mama Rose was 21 and 22 when her daughters were born.  In real life, she was 30 - 32 when Gypsy starts and probably 45 when it ends.  I think it would be great to have an age-appropriate Rose.  And it is pretty clear to me that Lea Michele would be a better choice for the next Rose.  How refreshing.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:44am

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "It was an idea that I was interested in and deeply engaged with at the time. (Also, not that it necessarily matters to that particular point, but I was not the prime mover on that attempt either, merely an admittedly very enthusiastic participant.) I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone.

As for what I considered Pollyanna-ish about your reply, I honestlyplannednot to address it, because I don't see you being talked out of what seems a deeply entrenched opinion, but how about I single out some ideas and quotes that I perceive as particularly naive and unrealistic (and, in some cases, no-doubt-unintentionally ignorant), and you think about them for a while, maybe talk to a few people of color about whether or not that sounds realistic or truthful in their experience.

Ideas like:

Self-segregation is a thing that exists, casting that is only diverse enough for the majority to be comfortable just reflects that reality! [As my mother often told me when a child, "Oh, honey..."]

Quotes like:

"I think the idea of an all-Black anything is just as much a backward step as an all-white cast."

"...most shows today clearly do have diverse casting, so there really isn't an issue that needs to be corrected here."

"...no one in here (including me) is going to condemn Hadestown or Hamilton for having a statistically unrealistic majority of people of color, or claim that this is a fraudulent view of reality."

That last one is especially hilarious in a "truth hurts" sort of way when you consider that, as recently as when it opened, Equity -- freakingEquity-- stepped up on behalf of its no doubt utterly disenfranchised white performers to chew outHamiltonfor daring to specifically seek performers of color in its audition notice. (They buckled, in case you forgot how that turned out.) The meresuggestionthat a part wasn't for a white performer led to an outcry and a change of wording in a casting call. But people of color are the fragile ones, and there's no issue to be corrected here..."

Never said we have to make audiences comfortable. You asked why they weren't more upset, I said because they see self-segregation all around them, so when they see it onstage, it looks normal. That's a likely factual answer, not an endorsement. 

I also said more diverse casting could help inspire future generations to think differently about race. You called that Pollyannish, but you still won't respond honestly when I point out that your growing up with Jesus Christ Superstar probably helped form your own ideas about greater racial inclusivity. You just keep dancing around and joshing and not at all answering that one (some talk about  your ideal cast being all-Black when your own posts on your ideal production proved otherwise).

The weird thing is that you seem to be accusing me of some racist notions but at the same time you tell my I'm Pollyannaish. Not sure how you square that circle. 

Oh, honey, yourself.

But I'm done with this. You seem to want to insult. I want to talk about what would make a good production of Gypsy. Placing talent above race would definitely be the right step for an upcoming production. 

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 12:44 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 10:21am

BWAY Baby2 said: "Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic."

Do you also insist that the actors have authentic hair and eye color?

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 10:37am

joevitus said: "...you still won't respond honestly when I point out that your growing up with Jesus Christ Superstar probably helped form your own ideas about greater racial inclusivity. You just keep dancing around and joshing and not at all answering that one (some talk about your ideal cast being all-Black when your own posts on your ideal production proved otherwise)."

Leaving aside your theory about any influence JCS had on my ideas about inclusivity -- I'm sure it played some role, but that's honestly not the primary reason -- I did answer your second point when I said that posts on my "ideal production" (mostly on another forum, no less, so not really sure why you're bringing them up here, a place where I simply opined it would've been great had it happened, not that it was my ideal, which is something else entirely, and when I did make a post about it here, I merely expounded on how effective I felt the concept to be) reflected an earlier reality. My current reality, for that gospel rendition at least, is all-black. I even made it clear that I wouldn't make the same choices with the words "I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone."

I notice you didn't address that in your reply. Any particular reason? Perhaps because it didn't fit your narrative of me not answering your point(s)?

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 10:37 AM

[binau]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 10:43am

Has Audra ever sung Some People/Coming Up Roses or Rose's Turn in concert or another venue? Much like Bernadette did at Carnegie Hall in the 90s*, I'd be curious to hear Audra 'audition' for the role as I'm not 100% sure yet how the score will fit her voice. It does feel like Audra should be next in line. I am surprised that she doesn't appear to be the box office draw we thought she was but things can be different if it's a musical vs play (see also, Patti LuPone in that David M play she did).

* One of the few personal facts actually shared about Bernadette described by Richard Jay Alexander on a podcast is that Bernadette is a 'complex person' and was quite anxious/upset at the prospect of performing 'Some People' for the first time as she really wanted to do the role and didn't want the performance to rule her out of it.

[romain2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 11:26am

Ha, it's pretty funny that I mentioned an ACTUAL successful Chicago-based production of Gypsy with Black leads...and no one seems to have noticed. 

Here is my response from above:

Not on Broadway, but a few years back in Chicago, a theater company called Porchlight had a production of Gypsy where all the leads were played by Black actors. Chicago theater legend E. Faye Butler led the cast. And it received raves and some Jeff Awards, Chicago's version of the Tonys/Obies.

 

https://www.theatreinchicago.com/gypsy/reviews/9756/

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 11:26 AM

[Ke3]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:25pm

binau said: "Has Audra ever sung Some People/Coming Up Roses or Rose's Turn in concert or another venue? Much like Bernadette did at Carnegie Hall in the 90s*, I'd be curious to hear Audra 'audition' for the role as I'm not 100% sure yet how the score will fit her voice. It does feel like Audra should be next in line. I am surprised that she doesn't appear to be the box office draw we thought she was but things can be different if it's a musical vs play (see also, Patti LuPone in that David M play she did).

* One of the few personal facts actually shared about Bernadette described by Richard Jay Alexander on a podcast is that Bernadette is a 'complex person' and was quite anxious/upset at the prospect of performing 'Some People' for the first time as she really wanted to do the role and didn't want the performance to rule her out of it."

Audra sung Rose's Turn at her recent London and Carnegie Hall shows. There's recordings floating around and the London show was filmed for release so we'll all get to see it eventually. I agree about the musical vs play thing. Her last two Broadway outings were plays so I wouldn't really use the numbers for those as evidence that she couldn't carry a Gypsy revival. Any Gypsy revival needs a smart producer that can turn a profit with a limited amount of time. Gypsy has proven time and again that it doesn't have legs. You get those high box office numbers for a few months as people flock to see a star in a true star part, and then it's over. 

Theatre doesn't need him back but Rudin wanted to do it and he could've made it work.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 2:28pm

Because it's a highly fictionalized account of GRL's life. And the reason for the thread is to give previously-marginalized folks a moment in the spotlight in a role they might knock out of the park. Something that your ignorant, idiotic reply ignores.

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An ALL BLACK verson of Gypsy?   Perhaps instead of appropriating a white people vehicle- vehicles that are more authentic can be explored. And my post was not idiots and ignorant. 

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 02:28 PM

[OhHiii]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 2:47pm

Count me among those who remain unconvinced that Audra's voice would be a fit for this score. Not sure if it's been said, but I think a Sheryl Lee Ralph (as her star is clearly ascending AGAIN) and Keke Palmer would be a solid ticket for a Rose/GRL pairing. Ticket selling potential aside though I think their combined star power would be meaningful after their recent success in TV/Film.

It begs the question of if we need another Gypsy as it's always been done. In the vein of recent reinventions, it would be enthralling to see someone take a completely different approach. If Oklahoma can be so gloriously and darkly reimagined, Gypsy sure can. Same with Company. There's a lot of strife in the material to mine about stopping at nothing to make it when the cards are stacked against you. 

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 2:55pm

^ It helps that Arthur Laurents isn't around to nitpick. Sam Mendes made some questionable choices for the 2003 revival, but it probably -- no, definitely -- didn't help to have the author hanging over his shoulder like the ghost of Banquo in Macbeth.

[ChgoTheatreGuy]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 6:53pm

I feel that Sheryl Lee Ralph would be amazing as Rose.  My dream Rose would be Patti Labelle, unfortunately from seeing her in concert sooo many times, she isn't always the best at remembering the exact words to the songs that she sings, not to mention all of the dialogue that her character has to remember.