Andrew Lloyd Webber on Musicals and Political Correctness- Page 2

[chewy5000]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 6:27am

Interesting that he ignores all the criticism that Jesus Christ Superstar got from all sides back in the day...

[Theatrefan2]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 6:47am

There would absolutely be more uproar if evita was written today, especially with the greater connectivity we have these days. But it would mainly be from Argentina, especially with the heightened tensions between the two countries.

 

I think he could still write it but I'm not sure Elaine page or Patti Lupone would be considered suitable for playing the lead role.

[Owen22]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 7:39am

All he would have to do is give employment to a lyricist or bookwriter from, what I'm assuming is, an African or Asian country he wants to write about...

[ViniFromBrazil]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 9:49am

chewy5000 said: "Interesting that he ignores all the criticism that Jesus Christ Superstar got from all sides back in the day..."

You are absolutely correct.

There is a big difference between being called on by libs on Twitter where I assume he is not even on most of the time and having religious extremists banging on your theater because you're making a musical about Jesus or Joseph wearing a rainbow coat. Why is the first argument Evita? It's just ridiculous.

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 9:57am

ViniFromBrazil said: "chewy5000 said: "Interesting that he ignores all the criticism that Jesus Christ Superstar got from all sides back in the day..."

You are absolutely correct.

There is a big difference between being called on by libs on Twitter where I assume he is not even on most of the time and having religious extremists banging on your theater because you're making a musical about Jesus or Joseph wearing a rainbow coat. Why is the first argument Evita? It's just ridiculous."

Not just that. He was attacked by the Black press (I believe Ebony among them) for casting a Black man as Judas. And attacked by Jews with claims of anti-semitism. But things are more intense today, I think, than they were then.

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 9:59am

A Director said: "Joevitus - What a wonder you are! If you had lived in 1930s Germany, you would have told Jews, "It's just a star." In 1955, you would have told Rosa Parks there are plenty of other seats on the bus. If you were at Stonewall in June 1969, you would have told patrons not to upset people."

You've proved my (and also his) point. Apparently, to support Lloyd Webber writing Evita is equivalent to supporting the Nazis or American racists. If I get this sort of response, one can only imagine what Lloyd Webber would face.

Updated On: 6/16/23 at 09:59 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 10:00am

Impeach2017 said: "When your side stops trying to erase entire cultures, histories, and groups that are contrary to your rigid orthodoxy, then you can complain about all of the horrendous abuse that you suffer as an entitled, straight, white person because some people do not KYA 24/7, like in the "old" days."

Uh, what "side" is Lloyd Webber on? Whom has he tried to erase? But you, too, prove his point.

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 10:14am

He's right though. Everyone wants a person to "cancel". And no matter what show he writes, there will always be people who are either offended by the material, or get others to go against him, etc. The sensitivity to fictional stories has gotten out of control. I am NOT saying or implying he should write about whatever he wants, but people will always find a way to criticize. It's difficult for everyone right now. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 10:30am

JSquared2 said: "Impeach2017 said: "He loves to revel in claims of being a victim. Tiresome, like most of his music."

Yes, almost as tiresome as the complaints from the "haters" about how he is not/never was/never will be a good composer."

And yet they will dive into any thread about him with gusto, desperately seeking out another opportunity to disparage the man.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 10:37am

Webber hasn’t written much worthwhile in over thirty years. Political correctness isn’t what’s holding him back- it’s the fact he no longer has strong collaborators who will push him. 

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 2:41pm

Honestly, I don't think it's so much an issue of a person writing about someone from another country per se, but rather this particular person who, instead of taking pause to consider the reason he may have been advised against writing about this specific subject and using it as an opportunity to go forward with the project with greater sensitivity and due diligence, complains about "political correctness."

There are reasons why people from marginalized groups are wary of having their stories told by those outside their group. We end up getting things like Miss Saigon; things in which people who historically have had fewer opportunities to represent themselves end up getting caricatured, stereotyped, vilified, misrepresented, etc.

I don't think we want a situation in which people are barred from telling other people's stories. It can be an excellent opportunity to educate, forge empathy, understand difference, find commonalities, foster collaboration, etc. between people from different walks of life. But it doesn't seem like ALW is interested in collaborating with people from the country his desired subject is from, but rather just forging ahead and do his own thing without any input from the people who have a stake in how they are represented, the way he could do in the 70s.

Who knows whether the resulting musical would be good or bad, offensive or enlightening, etc.

Updated On: 6/16/23 at 02:41 PM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/16/23 at 5:44pm

I would be fascinated to know what subject he was discouraged from writing about. There's something oddly jagged about his music writing that sounds weird to me outside of an English context, but I've never been able to put my finger on it and I can only imagine what it would be like if he were to try his hand pastiching a culture that's more foreign to him.

[Zenobia]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 12:01am

He was working on an adaptation of the movie "A United Kingdom" about Seretse Khama, then Prince of Bechuanaland, and the white woman, Ruth Williams, he fell in love with. They married against all protest from both sides and were eventually rewarded, when he became the first president of independent Botswana. 

It's a beautiful story, and written well, could be a great musical, and I don't think it needs someone from Botswana to create it - it would mean, that it would never get written. ALW would just need to get the right collaborators to ensure fair and correct representation of the Africans in the story to avoid something like Miss Saigon.  

[Broadway Flash]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 5:17am

Kad said: "Webber hasn’t written much worthwhile in over thirty years. Political correctness isn’t what’s holding him back- it’s the fact he no longer has strong collaborators who will push him."

Of course you would say something like this rather than addressing the topic at hand, presumably because u agree with what webber is saying but don’t want to debate it.  I think school of rock was worthwhile.  Great score great musical big hit

[bear88]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 6:13am

Andrew Lloyd Webber made his reputation with Jesus Christ Superstar, one of the more controversial hit musicals of all time. He was a young nobody then, and that musical drew ire from conservative Christians (for everything from its title to the absence of a resurrection), from Jews (because they’re the main villains in what is basically a retold Passion Play) and some Black writers (because Judas, damned for all time, just had to be Black).

None of that gets mentioned much anymore because Jesus Christ Superstar is such an established part of the musical theater canon that people can barely remember what’s the fuss. It’s been running for more than 50 years and yielded a major Hollywood film, a live TV special, and some very affectionate (and quite funny) teasing on Schmigadoon.

Andrew Lloyd Webber can get pretty much anything made, even if it’s terrible, given his stature and clout in the industry. And I keep coming back to this: A musical by two white guys, an American and a Brit, based on real-life events in the Philippines that bears at least a passing resemblance to Evita is having its first preview performance today on Broadway. Producers even restructured an entire theater.

How do they have the clout that Andrew Lloyd Webber - of all people - claims to lack?

[Kad]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 8:11am

Broadway Flash said: "Kad said: "Webber hasn’t written much worthwhile in over thirty years. Political correctness isn’t what’s holding him back- it’s the fact he no longer has strong collaborators who will push him."

Of course you would say something like this rather than addressing the topic at hand, presumably because u agree with what webber is saying but don’t want to debate it. I think school of rock was worthwhile. Great score great musical big hit"

There is no part of my message that is off topic nor is there any part that indicates I agree with Webber. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 4:03pm

bear88 said: "Andrew Lloyd Webber made his reputation withJesus Christ Superstar, one of the more controversial hit musicals of all time. He was a young nobody then, and that musical drew ire from conservative Christians (for everything from its title to the absence of a resurrection), from Jews (because they’re the main villains in what is basically a retold Passion Play) and some Black writers (because Judas, damned for all time, just had to be Black).

None of that gets mentioned much anymore becauseJesus Christ Superstaris such an established part of the musical theater canon that people can barely remember what’s the fuss. It’s been running for more than 50 years and yielded a major Hollywood film, a live TV special, and some very affectionate (and quite funny) teasing onSchmigadoon.

Andrew Lloyd Webber can get pretty much anything made, even if it’s terrible, given his stature and clout in the industry. And I keep coming back to this: A musical by two white guys, an American and a Brit, based on real-life events in the Philippines that bears at least a passing resemblance toEvitais having its first preview performance today on Broadway. Producers even restructured an entire theater.

How do they have the clout that Andrew Lloyd Webber - of all people - claims to lack?"

And this is how the world has changed. A work could thrive on--or succeed despite--controversy. People wanted to see what everyone was talking about. Now such a work and it's composer would be erased.

[bear88]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 4:27pm

joevitus said: "bear88 said: "Andrew Lloyd Webber made his reputation withJesus Christ Superstar, one of the more controversial hit musicals of all time. He was a young nobody then, and that musical drew ire from conservative Christians (for everything from its title to the absence of a resurrection), from Jews (because they’re the main villains in what is basically a retold Passion Play) and some Black writers (because Judas, damned for all time, just had to be Black).

None of that gets mentioned much anymore becauseJesus Christ Superstaris such an established part of the musical theater canon that people can barely remember what’s the fuss. It’s been running for more than 50 years and yielded a major Hollywood film, a live TV special, and some very affectionate (and quite funny) teasing onSchmigadoon.

Andrew Lloyd Webber can get pretty much anything made, even if it’s terrible, given his stature and clout in the industry. And I keep coming back to this: A musical by two white guys, an American and a Brit, based on real-life events in the Philippines that bears at least a passing resemblance toEvitais having its first preview performance today on Broadway. Producers even restructured an entire theater.

How do they have the clout that Andrew Lloyd Webber - of all people - claims to lack?"

And this is how the world has changed. A work could thrive on--or succeed despite--controversy. People wanted to see what everyone was talking about. Now such a work and it's composer would be erased."

There are several weaknesses with your argument. The first is the one you ignore: Why is Here Lies Love holding its opening preview on Broadway in a few hours when it’s written by a couple of white guys about historical events the Philippines? I've only listened to the cast recording of Here Lies Love, but it sure sounds similar to Evita in many ways. It's hardly being erased. In fact, during the dispute with the musicians' union, the show made a point of highlighting two of its producers and cast of Filipino background.

Does anyone seriously think Andrew Lloyd Webber couldn't get a musical set in another country made? Would it be wise for him to include, in a real way, strong collaborators with a background in said country? Should he be doing things a little differently in 2023 than he did 45 years ago, in terms of casting and other choices? Is that bad? It might force him to stretch as an artist. Wouldn't that be a positive thing?

If Andrew Lloyd Webber, the world's most successful living composer, came out with a musical today set in another country with strong collaborators with some sort of connection to that country, do you really think no one would produce it, that no one would be the least bit curious?

Why does Andrew Lloyd Webber have less clout than David Byrne and Fatboy Slim?

Updated On: 6/17/23 at 04:27 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 5:14pm

Kad said: "Political correctness isn’t what’s holding him back- it’s the fact he no longer has strong collaborators who will push him."

I am going to set aside your first sentence because it (manifestly) triggers a distraction.

You are correct of course that he is no longer working with the sort of people he needs. Connor is no Prince or Nunn, and Zippel is no Rice (or T.S. Eliot). But that is a self-inflicted condition. He became a control freak so the best he can do is engage someone like Connor who will take orders for the paycheck. It doesn't help that he has become delusional.

 

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 7:37pm

I'm honestly wondering who even told him this, and why.

[verywellthensigh]

Posted: 6/17/23 at 7:52pm

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO TOLD HIM!  HE WAS TOLD!  AND NOW HE'LL NEVER WRITE ANOTHER MUSICAL EVER, EVER AGAIN!!

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/18/23 at 12:55am

The is so much content in this thread that is laughable. 

Just a few tidbits for those who think they know far more than they do.

1. The ethnic makeup of Buenos Aires is not very different than New York City, Spanish, Italian, and Jewish. 

2. Native people in Spain Portugal and Italy are considered white, both genetically and by each other. It is very easy --  too easy -- to mix this up with the racial mess that is the New World.

3. Evita is Basque on both sides. Basques are descendants or at least relatives of Celts. There is a theory with some decent genetic scholarship behind it that they are all or part of one of the lost tribes of Israel (as are the so-called Black Irish). It is thought that they descend from Tubal, the grandson of Noah. Basque is a unique language but there is also scholarship tying it to Georgian.

Now back to our regularly scheduled insanity and racism.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/18/23 at 10:30am

Evita got a lot of pushback way back when from Argentinians. Eva Peron was a revered figure and they didn't like the portrayal of her as grasping and amoral. I don't know whether she is still as worshipped today.

[Soaring29]

Posted: 6/19/23 at 12:11am

Theatrefan2 said: "There would absolutely be more uproar if evita was written today, especially with the greater connectivity we have these days. But it would mainly be from Argentina, especially with the heightened tensions between the two countries.



I think he could still write it but I'm not sure Elaine page or Patti Lupone would be considered suitable for playing the lead role." 

 

 How are the U.S and Argentina at odds with each other?

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/19/23 at 12:18am

bear88 said: "joevitus said: "bear88 said: "Andrew Lloyd Webber made his reputation withJesus Christ Superstar, one of the more controversial hit musicals of all time. He was a young nobody then, and that musical drew ire from conservative Christians (for everything from its title to the absence of a resurrection), from Jews (because they’re the main villains in what is basically a retold Passion Play) and some Black writers (because Judas, damned for all time, just had to be Black).

None of that gets mentioned much anymore becauseJesus Christ Superstaris such an established part of the musical theater canon that people can barely remember what’s the fuss. It’s been running for more than 50 years and yielded a major Hollywood film, a live TV special, and some very affectionate (and quite funny) teasing onSchmigadoon.

Andrew Lloyd Webber can get pretty much anything made, even if it’s terrible, given his stature and clout in the industry. And I keep coming back to this: A musical by two white guys, an American and a Brit, based on real-life events in the Philippines that bears at least a passing resemblance toEvitais having its first preview performance today on Broadway. Producers even restructured an entire theater.

How do they have the clout that Andrew Lloyd Webber - of all people - claims to lack?"

And this is how the world has changed. A work could thrive on--or succeed despite--controversy. People wanted to see what everyone was talking about. Now such a work and it's composer would be erased."

There are several weaknesses with your argument. The first is the one you ignore:Why isHere Lies Loveholding its opening preview on Broadway in a few hours when it’s written by a couple of white guys about historical events the Philippines? I've only listened to the cast recording ofHere Lies Love, but it sure sounds similar toEvitain many ways. It's hardly being erased. In fact, during the dispute with the musicians' union, the show made a point of highlighting two of its producers and cast of Filipino background.

Does anyone seriously think Andrew Lloyd Webber couldn't get a musical set in another country made? Would it be wise for him to include, in a real way, strong collaborators with a background in said country? Should he be doing things a little differently in 2023 than he did 45 years ago, in terms of casting and other choices? Is that bad? It might force him to stretch as an artist. Wouldn't that be a positive thing?

If Andrew Lloyd Webber, the world's most successful living composer, came out with a musical today set in another country with strong collaborators with some sort of connection to that country, do you really think no one would produce it, that no one would be the least bit curious?

Why does Andrew Lloyd Webber have less clout than David Byrne and Fatboy Slim?"

Less about clout and more about more obvious target. I can't address Why Is Here Lies Loveholding because I know nothing about it, how seriously the composer/lyricist researched to assure authentic presentation or what steps they took (or didn't take) to reach out to Filipinos to assure a positive response.

But, geez, all you have to do is look at the comments here about Miss Saigon, or at the issues that arise whenever The King and I is revived to see Lloyd Webber has real reason to believe he'd be sabotaged if he tried at this point to write a work populated by people of a different culture/racial identity than his own.