Dear Evan Hansen issue...- Page 3

[dwwst12]

Posted: 3/4/17 at 1:04pm

Does the protagonist need to be free of flaws -- even massive ones -- for us to relate to or care about him/her?  I think musicals can and should can be more nuanced than that, like other art forms.  In this new golden age of TV, we're familiar with rooting for pretty darn messed up people, and examining why the heck that is.  And showrunners have become very skilled at making us feel this way (think Breaking Bad, The Americans, The Sopranos, et al).  Yet for some, it seems a musical protagonist must be more black and white...?

I also think it's a real weird stretch to call his actions "psychopathic."  He was troubled and lonely made a bad choice that got away from him.  He didn't exactly sell meth to kids or become a sympathetic mob kingpin.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 3/4/17 at 3:10pm

I really appreciate this thread and the discussion. I think if you look closely enough at any musical you will find holes and inconsistencies. Most musicals deal in themes and archtypes and DEH is really no different in that respect. 

I'm not sure people are honing in on his dishonesty. I think that is a secondary theme. I think people are relating to their own feelings of disconnection and loss and find empathy and understanding in the piece. 

Most people can relate to a time when they have felt "other" and most probably have a time where they made a poor choice or hurt someone out of strong desire to connect or feel validated. 

If Evan hadn't gone viral his little lie might never have hurt anyone. It might have just run its course, soothed a few people and then the future would have played out. However, there is a parable in this piece, so that was not to be. 

Evan most certainly isn't a psychopath, but in today's social media judge and jury world if someone read a headline on facebook about a teen doing that he would be vilified and crucified. We so rarely stop to think about the actual flesh and blood person. His mother would also be vilified, "what is wrong with her?" "why isn't she paying attention to him?" "why didn't she get him help?" I love the musical briefly touches on this as the Murphys are crucified by strangers who do not give them the empathy of real people. 

The musical for me, highlights the adage that everyone we encounter is fighting a battle we know nothing about. Compassion rather than judgment heals. Everyone in that show has demons and needs to feel seen, heard, witnessed and understood. At the end, Evan can finally say he is ok being with himself and that he is enough after years of trying to find his father and mother's validation through others. That is no small miracle. 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 3/4/17 at 4:07pm

^^^^

I'm sobbing just reading this thread. It's so beautiful. 

[cam5y]

Posted: 3/4/17 at 8:06pm

Whatever it is, it's really not a "little lie".

Updated On: 3/4/17 at 08:06 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/5/17 at 12:17am

dwwst12 said: "Does the protagonist need to be free of flaws -- even massive ones -- for us to relate to or care about him/her? ...."

Absolutely not. In fact, the opposite is the case, as Aristotle explained 2400 years ago. If a person is perfect, then s/he will make no error, the play will have no conflict and no need for resolution. To the Greeks, however, "error" implied a lack of knowledge, not an immoral impulse. In modern, secular times, we have preferred our heroes to be more human and in possession of human foibles, but we still expect some commitment to do the right thing. (Despite their obvious flaws, even Blanche DuBois and Willy Loman pursue "good" as they understand it.)

DEH seems Greek in design. Evan does what seems to him a kindness, not an error: he poses as Connor's friend to bring comfort to the Murphys. But in the Greek sense, the pose is very much an error in understanding: Evan lacks the knowledge that his lie will spin out of control. (Yes, lying is also a sin, but the Greeks thought sin resulted from ignorance, not moral perversion.) His reversal is that he is unmasked and disowned by his fake family; his recognition is that being himself is good enough, even good enough to be loved.

Or one can take the Modern view, as many have in this thread, that Evan is simply a needy but basically well-intentioned teenager.

 

[elephantseye]

Posted: 3/5/17 at 10:50am

GavestonPS said: "DEH seems Greek in design. Evan does what seems to him a kindness, not an error: he poses as Connor's friend to bring comfort to the Murphys. But in the Greek sense, the pose is very much an error in understanding: Evan lacks the knowledge that his lie will spin out of control. (Yes, lying is also a sin, but the Greeks thought sin resulted from ignorance, not moral perversion.) His reversal is that he is unmasked and disowned by his fake family; his recognition is that being himself is good enough, even good enough to be loved."

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.

[blaxx]

Posted: 3/5/17 at 8:30pm

Hasn't musical theater for decades ignored the horrible things the characters we most cheer on had done?

I thought that was a given.

Everyone feels awful for the disfigured dude who doesn't get the girl at the end of the show. No talk about the innocents he murders throughout the musical.

How about the drag queen who throws a live dog off a high floor for money?  That left me traumatized.

I'd think this isn't any worse. 

 

[PattyO'Furniture]

Posted: 3/11/17 at 4:17pm

Having watched Ben's performance three times now (which was superb each time), I think the problem is Evan gets no comeuppance.  He gets no real penalty, giving the audience no real reason to be on his side or root for him in the end.  When all is said and done, Evan ends up exactly where he would've ended up had the whole story never've happened.  He's in junior college working a part-time job.  He's not destitute.  He's not shamed or a pariah or kicked out of his house.  He began w/ no friends; he ends w/ no friends.  He was a loner in the beginning; he's a loner at the end.  He loses a girlfriend he never really had and her family to which he never really belonged.  His mother does not reject or chide him but hugs him.  Zoe does not slap him but thanks him.  He seems more centered at the end, so he's actually better off for having told the lie.  I'm left thinking, Wow - he came out of this pretty good.  Lucky-ass wuss.

All shows have flaws - it's just that this one seems so obvious and so easily fixable that it makes things frustrating.  

Great discussion here and even more wonderful performances from the DEH cast!     

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 12:21am

I think I'm in the minority but I actually preferred the book to the score? I think I appreciated that it was daring enough to tell a story about a bunch of really troubled kids caught in an avalanche that leaves them alive, but that's about it. There's no musical ending, no catharsis and no real punishments. They're still troubled, but they're coping. There's a sense they'll grow out of it, but they have a long way to go. In the meantime, they just try to move on and keep moving. They gotta live, they gotta earn a paycheck, they gotta go back to school. It felt real and I appreciated it. 

[Nycat63]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 10:40am

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.

 

I think this this point - that Evan is on the autistic spectrum - may be what is missed by those who feel his actions were "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" or otherwise unforgivable.  Unless you have direct experience with someone on the spectrum or work in psych, you would have no reason to know that people on the spectrum often lack empathy.  They don't understand the impact their actions have on others.  It's not that they don't care, they don't understand and definitely don't foresee.  It's a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness.  But I agree it's problematic that the book doesn't really get this across.  

My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone.  No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie.  So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed.  Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was.  

 

"

 

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 10:56am

Dear Evan Hansen is a really dark show.  The antagonist is deeply flawed and the themes are somewhat disturbing, but that's why I think it's so good.

The themes may be hard to swallow, but they're realistic, especially for young people.  Evan makes a terrible mistake by falling down a slippery slope of lies.  We must remember that Evan is a 17 year old kid who seems to be somewhere on the autistic spectrum.  I've always thought that the story describes how easy it is for a young person to find themselves in so much trouble through social media.  Evan is clearly a very warm hearted person with only good intentions.  He doesn't require any great consequences to learn from his actions, he has learned from his actions by realizing how much he hurt the Murphy family.  I guarantee you that if we followed Evan any further in his story we would clearly see this.

This show reminds me of Passion, where the themes and ideas are so clearly presented infront of the audience and yet they may not be the sugary sweet ideas that a Disney musical would present so the audience chooses to write them off as toxic.  

[rebeccmam31]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 11:03am

Nycat63 said: "

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.

 

I think this this point - that Evan is on the autistic spectrum - may be what is missed by those who feel his actions were "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" or otherwise unforgivable.  Unless you have direct experience with someone on the spectrum or work in psych, you would have no reason to know that people on the spectrum often lack empathy.  They don't understand the impact their actions have on others.  It's not that they don't care, they don't understand and definitely don't foresee.  It's a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness.  But I agree it's problematic that the book doesn't really get this across.  

My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone.  No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie.  So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed.  Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was. "
"

 

Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much--I don't think the theme of the show is that "we are all found"; I think it's that we SHOULD all be found.  Connor is not. At all. And that's a tragedy. Evan is not, totally, even at the end. But he's working on it. Connor's "being found" through the project is a big fake, and the kids involved in building the project are big fakes as well in different ways.  They are also not "found." No one is *really* found in the course of the show, but the idea is introduced that they should be. I feel like that was enough for me.

[ntrackbar]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 11:18am

I don't think the theme of the show is that "we are all found"; I think it's that we SHOULD all be found.  Connor is not. At all. And that's a tragedy.

 

100% - that is my overall feeling. Thank you for putting it so succinctly. 

[Nycat63]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 11:19am

rebeccmam31 said: "Nycat63 said: "

I love this interpretation! I think that (although the end result is the same) the distinction between ignorance and moral perversion is an important one to make. I wouldn't be able to identify with or sympathize with a teenage boy who sets out to hook up with a dead boy's sister by fabricating a friendship with him. A teenager who has been ostracized his whole life, struggles with mental illness, and genuinely tries to do what he thinks is the right thing (all the while being encourage and pressured by Alana and Jared to keep it going) is a very different character. Also, based off of how I read Ben Platt's performance, Evan falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum. If he has Asperger's, for example, he would have an extremely hard time understanding what his initial lie could spiral in to until he is faced with the consequences head on.

 

I think this this point - that Evan is on the autistic spectrum - may be what is missed by those who feel his actions were "psychopathic" or "sociopathic" or otherwise unforgivable.  Unless you have direct experience with someone on the spectrum or work in psych, you would have no reason to know that people on the spectrum often lack empathy.  They don't understand the impact their actions have on others.  It's not that they don't care, they don't understand and definitely don't foresee.  It's a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness.  But I agree it's problematic that the book doesn't really get this across.  

My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone.  No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie.  So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed.  Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was. "
"

 

Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much--I don't think the theme of the show is that "we are all found"; I think it's that we SHOULD all be found.  Connor is not. At all. And that's a tragedy. Evan is not, totally, even at the end. But he's working on it. Connor's "being found" through the project is a big fake, and the kids involved in building the project are big fakes as well in different ways.  They are also not "found." No one is *really* found in the course of the show, but the idea is introduced that they should be. I feel like that was enough for me.

 

"This is an interesting point Rebeccamam31, and one I could completely get on board with, but I felt they were trying to force the "everyone will be found" angle.  Maybe as adults putting our own interpretation on it (and those of us who relate to some of it as parents)  see it differently, but there is a huge demographic - teens, etc - who are missing that point and don't see it as a dark musical, rather an uplifting one.  Maybe that's why I'm still struggling with it a bit.  

 

[rebeccmam31]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 11:38am

Nycat63 said: "rebeccmam31 said: "Nycat63 said: "


My struggle with the show - though I love it overall - is the notion that "we are all found" and "no one is really alone" when Connor was indeed alone.  No one understood him, few cared for him (his family surely did but didn't know how to reach him) and he had no friends or community - his "being found" was based on a lie.  So it's difficult for me to wholly buy into the message when a lonely, depressed teen killed himself and was never really redeemed.  Frankly everything that happened only underscored how truly alone he was. "


 
Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much--I don't think the theme of the show is that "we are all found"; I think it's that we SHOULD all be found.  Connor is not. At all. And that's a tragedy. Evan is not, totally, even at the end. But he's working on it. Connor's "being found" through the project is a big fake, and the kids involved in building the project are big fakes as well in different ways.  They are also not "found." No one is *really* found in the course of the show, but the idea is introduced that they should be. I feel like that was enough for me.

 

"This is an interesting point Rebeccamam31, and one I could completely get on board with, but I felt they were trying to force the "everyone will be found" angle.  Maybe as adults putting our own interpretation on it (and those of us who relate to some of it as parents)  see it differently, but there is a huge demographic - teens, etc - who are missing that point and don't see it as a dark musical, rather an uplifting one.  Maybe that's why I'm still struggling with it a bit.  "

I do understand your struggle. I just never viewed it that way personally.  And I don't think it's an adult/kid thing--obviously some adults are ultimately finding it uplifting (instead of cautiously hopeful like I did). Some kids are seeing the darkness in it as well.  I've taken three teens to see it (and am taking yet another one on the 25th). Of the three, not one has seen it as a feel-good sort of show.  All of them recognized the absolute cruelty (albeit inadvertent) in Evan's actions.  And all of them recognized that Connor was forgotten and completely unknown and unknowable in the musical. They left aware that the characters more or less remained lonely but also with a determination to see the marginalized in their own school. I think that's a wonderful thing.

Now, the kids I brought are pensive sorts of teens.  They are inclined to dig into things, so perhaps that colored my experience.  But there are teens like them everywhere. They young man I am bringing soon is definitely of a less reflective nature, so I'm interested to see what his take will be.

In any event, I did not feel at all that they were forcing the "everyone will be found" angle, but I'm totally cool with agreeing to disagree.  I just love that there are so many shows right now that have people talking!

[elephantseye]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 11:41am

I think that part of the problem may be the book's failure to explain that Evan is autistic. If I'm remembering correctly, there's very little to indicate this in the text itself; everything his mom says deals with depression. So the entirety of Evan's autism rests on the shoulders of Platt's performance, which leaves the issue open to interpretation. If you don't read his characterization that way, there's not much in the book to contradict that.

As for Connor, I agree that he's an exception to the 'you will be found' message. I feel like they relied on bringing him back in songs like "Sincerely, Me" to off-set the really, really depressing fact that a teenage boy killed himself in the first fifteen minutes. And they used him to guilt Evan out of telling the truth sooner. I think that their treatment of him, and the insincerity of Alana and Will, trying to capitalize on his death, are what really throws me off. There's a lot of emphasis placed on the fact that people who hated/ignored Connor when he was alive are suddenly grieving his death, but they never follow through on a condemnation of that.

It goes back to one of my earlier posts-- what, exactly, is the show trying to say? If it's 'you will be found', then who found Connor? And everyone on social media and in person suddenly being touched by Evan's speech seems like a commentary on social media culture/viral videos, but I'm still not sure exactly what the thesis is there. Is it that if you're sincere, like Evan eventually was in his speech, you can genuinely touch people? Or is it that, because social media helps escalate the lie, we should be wary of its effects and concerned that we become more outwardly sympathetic but less genuinely so behind a screen?

People at stage door kept saying things like "this is such an important show, really relevant, really important message people need to head" but no one actually articulated what that message was, I think in part to the fact that the show doesn't really know, itself. I loved DEH and was very touched by it, but as I return to the OBC and think about it more, I'm a bit unsure what I actually got out of it.

[Nycat63]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 12:16pm

elephantseye said: "I think that part of the problem may be the book's failure to explain that Evan is autistic. If I'm remembering correctly, there's very little to indicate this in the text itself; everything his mom says deals with depression. So the entirety of Evan's autism rests on the shoulders of Platt's performance, which leaves the issue open to interpretation. If you don't read his characterization that way, there's not much in the book to contradict that.

As for Connor, I agree that he's an exception to the 'you will be found' message. I feel like they relied on bringing him back in songs like "Sincerely, Me" to off-set the really, really depressing fact that a teenage boy killed himself in the first fifteen minutes. And they used him to guilt Evan out of telling the truth sooner. I think that their treatment of him, and the insincerity of Alana and Will, trying to capitalize on his death, are what really throws me off. There's a lot of emphasis placed on the fact that people who hated/ignored Connor when he was alive are suddenly grieving his death, but they never follow through on a condemnation of that.

It goes back to one of my earlier posts-- what, exactly, is the show trying to say? If it's 'you will be found', then who found Connor? And everyone on social media and in person suddenly being touched by Evan's speech seems like a commentary on social media culture/viral videos, but I'm still not sure exactly what the thesis is there. Is it that if you're sincere, like Evan eventually was in his speech, you can genuinely touch people? Or is it that, because social media helps escalate the lie, we should be wary of its effects and concerned that we become more outwardly sympathetic but less genuinely so behind a screen?

People at stage door kept saying things like "this is such an important show, really relevant, really important message people need to head" but no one actually articulated what that message was, I think in part to the fact that the show doesn't really know, itself. I loved DEH and was very touched by it, but as I return to the OBC and think about it more, I'm a bit unsure what I actually got out of it.

 

I think this is exactly where I am and you may be articulating it more clearly!

I can appreciate respectful debate - art is subjective, after all - but I do find it troubling that, as you note, many people think the message is important but depending on their view of the message, may lose sight of the tragedy of Connors suicide (I've seen views here referring to him as a "psychopath" who could have gone on to really hurt others- that's a big leap from teenager with depression) and the dangers of social media and thinking it fosters "community" when in fact it can provide a very false sense of community.  Perhaps somehow a more balanced resolution would have helped bring the different views together.  Or perhaps making Connor less of a bully so that he was as sympathetic a character as they tried to make Evan.

 

[3NU]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 12:57pm

elephantseye said: "As for Connor, I agree that he's an exception to the 'you will be found' message. I feel like they relied on bringing him back in songs like "Sincerely, Me" to off-set the really, really depressing fact that a teenage boy killed himself in the first fifteen minutes. And they used him to guilt Evan out of telling the truth sooner. I think that their treatment of him, and the insincerity of Alana and Will, trying to capitalize on his death, are what really throws me off. There's a lot of emphasis placed on the fact that people who hated/ignored Connor when he was alive are suddenly grieving his death, but they never follow through on a condemnation of that.


It goes back to one of my earlier posts-- what, exactly, is the show trying to say? If it's 'you will be found', then who found Connor? And everyone on social media and in person suddenly being touched by Evan's speech seems like a commentary on social media culture/viral videos, but I'm still not sure exactly what the thesis is there. Is it that if you're sincere, like Evan eventually was in his speech, you can genuinely touch people? Or is it that, because social media helps escalate the lie, we should be wary of its effects and concerned that we become more outwardly sympathetic but less genuinely so behind a screen?

People at stage door kept saying things like "this is such an important show, really relevant, really important message people need to head" but no one actually articulated what that message was, I think in part to the fact that the show doesn't really know, itself. I loved DEH and was very touched by it, but as I return to the OBC and think about it more, I'm a bit unsure what I actually got out of it."

(emphasis mine)

You're absolutely hitting the nail on the head here.  What you're saying is exactly why I am so uncomfortable with the songs "Disappear" and "You Will Be Found", which many claim to be uplifting.  I still contend that "Requiem", "Words Fail", and "So Big/So Small" remain the emotional and thematic cruxes of a very dark musical (despite what others may make the musical out to be).

All of this, of course, is made all the more confusing (and ironic) by the fact that the DEH poster literally has #youwillbefound written on Evan's cast.  I agree that "you will be found" is not the message of the show, and through this lens, the #youwillbefound hashtag is what the character of Evan (along with Alana and Will) are trying to promote (in a pretty perverse and utterly insincere way) through the narrative of the story.  However, given how our culture interprets hashtags on promotional posters these days, I wouldn't be surprised if #youwillbefound is actually taken at face value as the lesson to be taken from DEH -- which would be really unfortunate and (as I mentioned before) severely ironic.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 1:30pm

Dramatic characters are not real people!

If they were, then Oedipus is an arrogant blowhard; Blanche DuBois is a lousy houseguest who monopolizes the bathroom; Willy Loman is just an adulterer; Hamlet is a selfish brat who puts his own needs ahead of the needs of the Danes; M. Gallimard is a sexual idiot who can't tell a penis from a vagina; and Don Quijote is a schizophrenic with MPD.

(Usual disclaimer: I am judging the piece based on the recording and various synopses.)

What is Evan's great crime? He allows grieving people to believe what seems to make them feel better. And, yes, he benefits personally along the way. But I don't know how anybody can listen to "Words Fail" and insist he suffers no consequences. Losing everything when you've had a taste of it all is generally considered quite a punishment in the world of art (see the comeuppance of that great and intentional villain, Tartuffe).

Finally, I think it's a serious misreading of the play--even given what I can gleam from the album--to argue that Evan ends up exactly as he would have if the "Connor incident" had never occurred. He has clearly learned from his error and arrives at a new place by the time he says "It's a new day and I am myself. And that's good enough."

Whether he would have arrived there anyway is mere speculation and outside the play.

[bear88]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 3:42am

message fail

 

 

Updated On: 4/28/17 at 03:42 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 5:08am

GavestonPS said: "Dramatic characters are not real people!

If they were, then Oedipus is an arrogant blowhard; Blanche DuBois is a lousy houseguest who monopolizes the bathroom; Willy Loman is just an adulterer; Hamlet is a selfish brat who puts his own needs ahead of the needs of the Danes; M. Gallimard is a sexual idiot who can't tell a penis from a vagina; and Don Quijote is a schizophrenic with MPD.

(Usual disclaimer: I am judging the piece based on the recording and various synopses.)

What is Evan's great crime? He allows grieving people to believe what seems to make them feel better. And, yes, he benefits personally along the way. But I don't know how anybody can listen to "Words Fail" and insist he suffers no consequences. Losing everything when you've had a taste of it all is generally considered quite a punishment in the world of art (see the comeuppance of that great and intentional villain, Tartuffe).

Finally, I think it's a serious misreading of the play--even given what I can gleam from the album--to argue that Evan ends up exactly as he would have if the "Connor incident" had never occurred. He has clearly learned from his error and arrives at a new place by the time he says "It's a new day and I am myself. And that's good enough."

Whether he would have arrived there anyway is mere speculation and outside the play.

 

"

Bravo.

Additionally, the message is: Connor is the result of marginalizing people. Find those who are at risk BEFORE , it gets to a suicidal point.

[cam5y]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 5:29am

GavestonPS said: "Dramatic characters are not real people!

If they were, then Oedipus is an arrogant blowhard; Blanche DuBois is a lousy houseguest who monopolizes the bathroom; Willy Loman is just an adulterer; Hamlet is a selfish brat who puts his own needs ahead of the needs of the Danes; M. Gallimard is a sexual idiot who can't tell a penis from a vagina; and Don Quijote is a schizophrenic with MPD.

(Usual disclaimer: I am judging the piece based on the recording and various synopses.)

What is Evan's great crime? He allows grieving people to believe what seems to make them feel better. And, yes, he benefits personally along the way. But I don't know how anybody can listen to "Words Fail" and insist he suffers no consequences. Losing everything when you've had a taste of it all is generally considered quite a punishment in the world of art (see the comeuppance of that great and intentional villain, Tartuffe).

Finally, I think it's a serious misreading of the play--even given what I can gleam from the album--to argue that Evan ends up exactly as he would have if the "Connor incident" had never occurred. He has clearly learned from his error and arrives at a new place by the time he says "It's a new day and I am myself. And that's good enough."

Whether he would have arrived there anyway is mere speculation and outside the play."

Evan's "crime" is not simply "allowing grieving people to believe what seems to make them feel better." In doing so, he creates a false narrative that distorts the legitimate memories that the family had of their son. It initially seems to make them feel better, but ultimately leaves them feeling worse, because this lovely, charming narrative of the orchard and the ice cream and the perfect day was all a lie. Connor never had that, with anyone.

I think that one of the most unearned aspects of the ending is when Zoe tells Evan that the whole ordeal has brought her family closer together, because everyone needed it for something. If that is the case, then the family has not really dealt with all the aspects of Evan's lie. I wouldn't argue that Evan has suffered no consequences, but I would argue that the effects on Evan are really secondary here. The important effects are those on the grieving family, and those are brushed over to a large extent. 

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 7:38am

This thread is truly incredible, the best thread/discussion of a show I've ever seen on a Broadway chat board. It demonstrates to me why DEH not only will (I think) but SHOULD win the Tony. It resonates with everyone who sees it (even those who may not like it) in very deep, textured and nuanced ways. And, aside from that, it gives us a performance for the ages. 

[MyLife]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:07am

^"It resonates with everyone who sees it (even those who may not like it) in very deep, textured and nuanced ways."

I have to disagree. Several people have spoken about flaws in the show that are too great that they prevent them from resonating with it. Some of these flaws seem frivolously overlooked. They are easily fixable but the show sailed from Second Stage to Broadway without addressing them. Why? Because people liked the show already they didn't think they needed to work on it more? This is one reason why I don't think DEH SHOULD win.

[little_sally]

Posted: 4/28/17 at 9:15am

MyLife said: "^"It resonates with everyone who sees it (even those who may not like it) in very deep, textured and nuanced ways."

I have to disagree. Several people have spoken about flaws in the show that are too great that they prevent them from resonating with it. Some of these flaws seem frivolously overlooked. They are easily fixable but the show sailed from Second Stage to Broadway without addressing them. Why? Because people liked the show already they didn't think they needed to work on it more? This is one reason why I don't think DEH SHOULD win.

I'm one of those people. I admire how well-done the show is but the plot-holes and flaws kept me from connecting with it.