Post A Reply - Gypsy in Chicago

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 1:49pm

Only if it is an all-black production.

[BuddyStarr]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 9:47am

So...Is anyone going to see the Encores production of "Light in the Piazza"?

[BJR]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 9:39am

Who the hell knows who June Havoc and Gypsy Rose Lee are anyway? Us, sure. But not most people. Silly reason.

Half the reason The Strip is so difficult to pull of is folks aren't familiar with her act anymore and havent been for decades.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 7:51am

Peter Francis James is an African-American actor and voice-over artist, distinguished by his strong baritone. He was born September 16 , 1956 , in Chicago , ...

Peter Francis James is playing Ziegfeld in the current Funny Girl- and a black man played one of the Jews in The Lehman Trilogy. I never thought any of the real characters in Gypsy were Jewish. 

Let's drop it here. I was trying to make a point. I think diverse casting is fine- to a point- but not always. Usually- YES- not always.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 2:28am

BWAY Baby2 said: "Yes- I was just trying to make a point- and the point was- authenticity counts for something, too. I am all for casting based on talent- not race. That said, there is something to be said for authenticity- and, to me, a black Florenz Ziegfeld or a Jewish member of the Temptations simply does not seem appropriate. Casting vaudeville striptease- portraying the life of Gypsy- with an All-Black cast simply, to me, feels disingenuous- unnecessary and a bit stunt-y. Hamilton was fabulous and groundbreaking- but not every show has to go that route.

And I know my first post was negative- but I was offended at the ease with which appropriation of white and/or Jewish historical figures by POC is considered just fine- while- if any black figure was portrayed by anyone not black- or not dark enough black- etc.- there is outrage and endless offense taken- vis a vis Nina Simone portrayed by Zoe Saldana, to name one example."

I agree that authenticity has to count for something, but since it does, I have to take issue with your claim (and not just yours) that Gypsy and her family were Jewish. I'd never thought about what religion the family was, so I googled after reading your post, and came up with this. If it's wrong, I'm willing to be corrected:

"Some websites say Rose Thompson was Jewish. She wasn't. Neither was Gypsy Rose Lee's father, Jack Hovick, who was born in Norway. Whether Rose considered herself a member of any church later on, I don't know, but she was raised Catholic, and for several years one of her best friends was a priest." https://major-smolinski.com/NAMES/GYPSYTWO.html
 

I do agree that representation of one ethnic group should not lead to the marginalization/erasure of any other ethnic group, and I agree about the equal ludicrousness of a Black Florenz Ziegfeld or a Jewish Temptation--but then neither has actually happened, to my knowledge. I doubt there will ever be an all-Black Broadway revival of Fiddler on the Roof or Funny Girl anymore than I think there will be an All Jewish (or Asian or White) Broadway revival of The Color Purple or The Wiz. 

Updated On: 12/21/22 at 02:28 AM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 12:04am

Yes- I was just trying to make a point- and the point was- authenticity counts for something, too. I am all for casting based on talent- not race. That said, there is something to be said for authenticity- and, to me, a black Florenz Ziegfeld or a Jewish member of the Temptations simply does not seem appropriate. Casting vaudeville striptease- portraying the life of Gypsy- with an All-Black cast simply, to me, feels disingenuous- unnecessary and a bit stunt-y. Hamilton was fabulous and groundbreaking- but not every show has to go that route. 

And I know my first post was negative- but I was offended at the ease with which appropriation of white and/or Jewish historical figures by POC is considered just fine- while- if any black figure was portrayed by anyone not black- or not dark enough black- etc.- there is outrage and endless offense taken- vis a vis Nina Simone portrayed by Zoe Saldana, to name one example.

Updated On: 12/21/22 at 12:04 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 8:22pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic."

I wonder, had you avoided calling this discussion ridiculous, if you would have still been attacked and the attack upvoted. I think it would have happened either way, unfortunately. More and more it becomes clear there's no way to have a reasonable, dispassionate conversation around the topic of color conscious casting (unless everyone holds the exact same opinion--then they pat each other on the back for being so clear-headed). 

I don't think it much matters what race the woman is who plays Rose--it's more of a great dramatic role than an attempt at historical authenticity, no matter who plays it. And, as a comparison, I don't think anyone would blink at a PoC playing Macbeth or Marc Antony, who are both obviously historical figures. We know Shakespeare's history isn't real history. We know Gypsy is a "musical fable."

But it's worth pointing out the double standard that would arise should a white person be cast in a role whose historical original was a PoC, and I don't think the whole "there haven't been the same opportunities available" argument is a really logical one--especially these days when pretty much every show on Broadway engages in color conscious casting. Maybe it made sense in the 1990's. There are LOTS of opportunities for people of all races on Broadway today, and easily far more on television and the movies than have ever been the case. 

Again, though, I don't think a dispassionate approach to this conversation is possible for most people. I'll probably get attacked for this post (or ignored). Your original comment was itself quite passionate--and intensely negative. I wish you'd avoided the name-calling and just made your point. I wish we could have an exchange of ideas without mudslinging. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 8:07pm

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "joevitus said: "...you still won't respond honestly when I point out that your growing up with Jesus Christ Superstar probably helped form your own ideas about greater racial inclusivity. You just keep dancing around and joshing and not at all answering that one (some talk about your ideal cast being all-Black when your own posts on your ideal production proved otherwise)."

Leaving aside your theory about any influence JCShad on my ideas about inclusivity -- I'm sure it played some role, but that's honestly not the primary reason -- I did answer your second point when I said that posts on my "ideal production" (mostly on another forum, no less, so not really sure why you're bringing them up here, a place where I simply opined it would've been great had it happened, not that it was my ideal, which is something else entirely, and when I did make a post about it here, I merely expounded on how effective I felt the concept to be) reflected an earlier reality. My current reality, for that gospel rendition at least, is all-black. I even made it clear that I wouldn't make the same choices with the words "I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone."

I notice you didn't address that in your reply. Any particular reason? Perhaps because it didn't fit your narrative of me not answering your point(s)?"

You seem obsessed with name calling for some reason. Been at it from the start in this exchange. What happened to you?

All I've said was people aren't surprised that any cast is dominated by a particular ethnic group because that's the social structure they see all around them. And I added casting more PoC in various roles will provide good role models. Somehow that's brought on an onslaught of both "Pollyanna, I wish I lived in your world" comments and, antithetically, "Oh, honey" comments about my supposedly tolerating racism. You still haven't squared that circle (one is either a rosey-eyed innocent or a bigot, not both).

Again, I'm tired of this bitchy back and forth and would rather talk about a Gypsy revival. When  you say something more substantive in response to me, maybe I'll feel it needs direct addressing. As for now, you aren't either representing what I've said accurately or you're trying to twist it for  your own ends. Can't see the point in going down that rabbit hole.

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 7:14pm

ChgoTheatreGuy said: "I feel that Sheryl Lee Ralph would be amazing as Rose. My dream Rose would be Patti Labelle, unfortunately from seeing her in concert sooo many times, she isn't always the best at remembering the exact words to the songs that she sings, not to mention all of the dialogue that her character has to remember."

Sheryl. Now that is a take I would like to see (I’m used to her in more upbeat/clean roles, but would love to see her get messy with some Gypsy).

Also, for what it’s worth, BWAYBaby2, “Perhaps instead of appropriating a white people vehicle- vehicles that are more authentic can be explored” is an idiotic and ignorant comment. As are most of the things you care to post. Hope that clears things up! 

[ChgoTheatreGuy]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 6:53pm

I feel that Sheryl Lee Ralph would be amazing as Rose.  My dream Rose would be Patti Labelle, unfortunately from seeing her in concert sooo many times, she isn't always the best at remembering the exact words to the songs that she sings, not to mention all of the dialogue that her character has to remember.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 2:55pm

^ It helps that Arthur Laurents isn't around to nitpick. Sam Mendes made some questionable choices for the 2003 revival, but it probably -- no, definitely -- didn't help to have the author hanging over his shoulder like the ghost of Banquo in Macbeth.

[OhHiii]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 2:47pm

Count me among those who remain unconvinced that Audra's voice would be a fit for this score. Not sure if it's been said, but I think a Sheryl Lee Ralph (as her star is clearly ascending AGAIN) and Keke Palmer would be a solid ticket for a Rose/GRL pairing. Ticket selling potential aside though I think their combined star power would be meaningful after their recent success in TV/Film.

It begs the question of if we need another Gypsy as it's always been done. In the vein of recent reinventions, it would be enthralling to see someone take a completely different approach. If Oklahoma can be so gloriously and darkly reimagined, Gypsy sure can. Same with Company. There's a lot of strife in the material to mine about stopping at nothing to make it when the cards are stacked against you. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 2:28pm

Because it's a highly fictionalized account of GRL's life. And the reason for the thread is to give previously-marginalized folks a moment in the spotlight in a role they might knock out of the park. Something that your ignorant, idiotic reply ignores.

report to mods | quote message | reply to message

An ALL BLACK verson of Gypsy?   Perhaps instead of appropriating a white people vehicle- vehicles that are more authentic can be explored. And my post was not idiots and ignorant. 

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 02:28 PM

[Ke3]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:25pm

binau said: "Has Audra ever sung Some People/Coming Up Roses or Rose's Turn in concert or another venue? Much like Bernadette did at Carnegie Hall in the 90s*, I'd be curious to hear Audra 'audition' for the role as I'm not 100% sure yet how the score will fit her voice. It does feel like Audra should be next in line. I am surprised that she doesn't appear to be the box office draw we thought she was but things can be different if it's a musical vs play (see also, Patti LuPone in that David M play she did).

* One of the few personal facts actually shared about Bernadette described by Richard Jay Alexander on a podcast is that Bernadette is a 'complex person' and was quite anxious/upset at the prospect of performing 'Some People' for the first time as she really wanted to do the role and didn't want the performance to rule her out of it."

Audra sung Rose's Turn at her recent London and Carnegie Hall shows. There's recordings floating around and the London show was filmed for release so we'll all get to see it eventually. I agree about the musical vs play thing. Her last two Broadway outings were plays so I wouldn't really use the numbers for those as evidence that she couldn't carry a Gypsy revival. Any Gypsy revival needs a smart producer that can turn a profit with a limited amount of time. Gypsy has proven time and again that it doesn't have legs. You get those high box office numbers for a few months as people flock to see a star in a true star part, and then it's over. 

Theatre doesn't need him back but Rudin wanted to do it and he could've made it work.

[romain2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 11:26am

Ha, it's pretty funny that I mentioned an ACTUAL successful Chicago-based production of Gypsy with Black leads...and no one seems to have noticed. 

Here is my response from above:

Not on Broadway, but a few years back in Chicago, a theater company called Porchlight had a production of Gypsy where all the leads were played by Black actors. Chicago theater legend E. Faye Butler led the cast. And it received raves and some Jeff Awards, Chicago's version of the Tonys/Obies.

 

https://www.theatreinchicago.com/gypsy/reviews/9756/

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 11:26 AM

[binau]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 10:43am

Has Audra ever sung Some People/Coming Up Roses or Rose's Turn in concert or another venue? Much like Bernadette did at Carnegie Hall in the 90s*, I'd be curious to hear Audra 'audition' for the role as I'm not 100% sure yet how the score will fit her voice. It does feel like Audra should be next in line. I am surprised that she doesn't appear to be the box office draw we thought she was but things can be different if it's a musical vs play (see also, Patti LuPone in that David M play she did).

* One of the few personal facts actually shared about Bernadette described by Richard Jay Alexander on a podcast is that Bernadette is a 'complex person' and was quite anxious/upset at the prospect of performing 'Some People' for the first time as she really wanted to do the role and didn't want the performance to rule her out of it.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 10:37am

joevitus said: "...you still won't respond honestly when I point out that your growing up with Jesus Christ Superstar probably helped form your own ideas about greater racial inclusivity. You just keep dancing around and joshing and not at all answering that one (some talk about your ideal cast being all-Black when your own posts on your ideal production proved otherwise)."

Leaving aside your theory about any influence JCS had on my ideas about inclusivity -- I'm sure it played some role, but that's honestly not the primary reason -- I did answer your second point when I said that posts on my "ideal production" (mostly on another forum, no less, so not really sure why you're bringing them up here, a place where I simply opined it would've been great had it happened, not that it was my ideal, which is something else entirely, and when I did make a post about it here, I merely expounded on how effective I felt the concept to be) reflected an earlier reality. My current reality, for that gospel rendition at least, is all-black. I even made it clear that I wouldn't make the same choices with the words "I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone."

I notice you didn't address that in your reply. Any particular reason? Perhaps because it didn't fit your narrative of me not answering your point(s)?

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 10:37 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 10:21am

BWAY Baby2 said: "Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic."

Do you also insist that the actors have authentic hair and eye color?

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:44am

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "It was an idea that I was interested in and deeply engaged with at the time. (Also, not that it necessarily matters to that particular point, but I was not the prime mover on that attempt either, merely an admittedly very enthusiastic participant.) I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone.

As for what I considered Pollyanna-ish about your reply, I honestlyplannednot to address it, because I don't see you being talked out of what seems a deeply entrenched opinion, but how about I single out some ideas and quotes that I perceive as particularly naive and unrealistic (and, in some cases, no-doubt-unintentionally ignorant), and you think about them for a while, maybe talk to a few people of color about whether or not that sounds realistic or truthful in their experience.

Ideas like:

Self-segregation is a thing that exists, casting that is only diverse enough for the majority to be comfortable just reflects that reality! [As my mother often told me when a child, "Oh, honey..."]

Quotes like:

"I think the idea of an all-Black anything is just as much a backward step as an all-white cast."

"...most shows today clearly do have diverse casting, so there really isn't an issue that needs to be corrected here."

"...no one in here (including me) is going to condemn Hadestown or Hamilton for having a statistically unrealistic majority of people of color, or claim that this is a fraudulent view of reality."

That last one is especially hilarious in a "truth hurts" sort of way when you consider that, as recently as when it opened, Equity -- freakingEquity-- stepped up on behalf of its no doubt utterly disenfranchised white performers to chew outHamiltonfor daring to specifically seek performers of color in its audition notice. (They buckled, in case you forgot how that turned out.) The meresuggestionthat a part wasn't for a white performer led to an outcry and a change of wording in a casting call. But people of color are the fragile ones, and there's no issue to be corrected here..."

Never said we have to make audiences comfortable. You asked why they weren't more upset, I said because they see self-segregation all around them, so when they see it onstage, it looks normal. That's a likely factual answer, not an endorsement. 

I also said more diverse casting could help inspire future generations to think differently about race. You called that Pollyannish, but you still won't respond honestly when I point out that your growing up with Jesus Christ Superstar probably helped form your own ideas about greater racial inclusivity. You just keep dancing around and joshing and not at all answering that one (some talk about  your ideal cast being all-Black when your own posts on your ideal production proved otherwise).

The weird thing is that you seem to be accusing me of some racist notions but at the same time you tell my I'm Pollyannaish. Not sure how you square that circle. 

Oh, honey, yourself.

But I'm done with this. You seem to want to insult. I want to talk about what would make a good production of Gypsy. Placing talent above race would definitely be the right step for an upcoming production. 

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 12:44 AM

[Jarethan]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:17am

NoItAll said: "Miserent said: "Not sure how “right” for the role she is, but I think the only current Broadway star who could potentially sell lots of tickets in this show would be Idina Menzel."

I can think of someone else—and a much better singer, to boot. Strange that."

In real life, Mama Rose was 21 and 22 when her daughters were born.  In real life, she was 30 - 32 when Gypsy starts and probably 45 when it ends.  I think it would be great to have an age-appropriate Rose.  And it is pretty clear to me that Lea Michele would be a better choice for the next Rose.  How refreshing.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:14am

BWAY Baby2 said: "Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic."

Because it's a highly fictionalized account of GRL's life. And the reason for the thread is to give previously-marginalized folks a moment in the spotlight in a role they might knock out of the park. Something that your ignorant, idiotic reply ignores.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:04am

Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic.

Updated On: 12/20/22 at 12:04 AM

[Soaring29]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 12:02am

I feel like the cast of Gypsy is pretty small so I think the opportunities would be pretty thin which is the opposite of the intention of an all black cast.

[NoItAll]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 11:53pm

Miserent said: "Not sure how “right” for the role she is, but I think the only current Broadway star who could potentially sell lots of tickets in this show would be Idina Menzel."

I can think of someone else—and a much better singer, to boot. Strange that.

Updated On: 12/19/22 at 11:53 PM

[ChgoTheatreGuy]

Posted: 12/19/22 at 11:46pm

I think that Keke Palmer would be amazing as Louise.  I am really not sure who I think would be a good Rose.  I don't know if Vanessa Williams would have the vocal range to pull it off.  Although I was really puzzled by the newspaper ads from when Tyne Daly was Rose, until I saw her and she scared the holy hell out of me!...