Name the new Pope!- Page 2

[son_of_a_gunn_25]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 1:48am

Yes the church has this great tradition of art and yes the church was filled with corrupt members and still has a few here and there, but many looked upon getting to work on the cathedrals as an honor and a way to show their devotion to God. If you were a woodcarver you didn't have much money of your own but it was a way to give back to the church. After Vatican 2, we have much different outlook on things. Have YOU been to most recently built Catholic churches? They are pretty plain. Actually i would bet that most of the modern day Protestant Mega-churches cost more to build. I am Catholic and I don't worship images or things or statues. As a matter of fact I can't recall one single Catholic I know who actually worships them. http://web.archive.org/web/20030604154434/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ475.HTM
This probably states it more eloquently than I can.

Updated On: 4/2/05 at 01:48 AM

[Nina]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 9:23am

Before condemning the church for it's vast art collection, keep in mind where most of comes from. I think this was pointed out already in son of a gun's posts. Many artists donated their work to the church as a way of showing devotion and giving something as an offering. Others were commisioned to do work that illustrates the preachings and the stories of Christ and the saints to the average person of centuries ago who had no ability to read.

The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, painted by Michealangelo, depicts the creation of mankind, the final judgement, the resuurection and many other scenes taken from Catholic teachings. During that time, when it was first pinted, people could come into the church and see, illustrated on the ceilings, what they were unable to read.

Also keep in mind that Michaelangelo, Giotti, Raphael, and the thousands of others who were commisioned or donated their work, were not paid high amounts. At the time, they were struggling, starving artists. It's only after centuries that these works have become priceless. The Popes leading the church centuries ago did not set out to amass an art collection worth billions.

As afr as the statements about the Pope being rich, wanting peopel to kiss his ring and show adoration, etc. He is not rich. He does not own the property of the church. The money belongs to the Catholic people and is used to administer the church and keep it functioing across the world. The art work belongs to the people also and is to be preserved for everyone to see and enjoy.

As the earthly envoy of Christ, which is what the Pope is considered, kissing his ring is a symbolic gesture of showing devotion to Christ. When people kiss the Popes ring, they are not honoring the man, they are honoring what he represents.

"Give all of your earnings to the Church so that we can help the poor - by building gold statues and other churches as big as cities"

The Vatican is a city. The cathedral is only one part of it and it is large because it is the center of the Catholic Church and serves millions of people each year. The rest of the city exists to house offices used to run the church, an oraganization that reaches across the entire world and serves about a billion people. Look at the number of government offices and buildings in Washington DC. If they were all centralized into one area, they would likely be larger than the Vatican City. We are able to understand the need for those but not for the church.

The Pope and the Catholic Church have taken many wrong stands on issues such as homosexuality, birth control, abortion and stem cell research, to name just a few. I personally disagree with the church's stand on each of these issues, therefore, I do not particpate in the church or give it my support. It's not so difficult to walk away when you don't agree. Nobody is forced into being a part of the Catholic Church. So, I am always confused by the vehement anger people feel toward the Pope. He passes the laws of the church down to those who belive and follow. The rest of can choose to ignore them.

[Spooky]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 9:29am

Feodor- For the sake of simplicity and uniformity, it's taught that Jesus gave the the name Petrus (meaning rock) to Simon and that's how we get Peter. Peter went to Rome, established the church, was cruicified on the site that is now St. Peter's Basilica.
If you actually research it (or as the church deems, doubt it) you'll find there is really no proof of any of it, just speculation. That's where Faith comes in to play.
As for all Christian faiths deriving from Catholicism, that's simply semantics and depends on whether or not you believe/recognize that the RC church was the first church and considering Rome wasn't even central in the spread of Christianity (Alexandria, Ephesus and Antioch were) that is left up to debate.
The RC church is a mix of paganism and christianity. There are liberties taken in explanations and symbolisms created.
And I admire people who can full out believe in what is told to them. I truly admire that and don't mean to take away from their beliefs in anyway.

I wish they would have a Vatican III summit and adapt some more changes. The Catholic church is still the only christian faith where you have to work your way in to heaven, all the others say you're going and you have to do a heck of a lot wrong to not get in.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 9:39am

I nominate



<----- Pope DELORES I

Updated On: 4/2/05 at 09:39 AM

[judy_in_disguise]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 9:42am

What's with all the Pope hate?

I had the very fortunate experience of being the youth field correspondent for the Ontario Christian television services coverage of World Youth Day in Toronto. Seeing kids from all over the world packed into a park to catch a glimpse of the Pope.....I'm not a very religious girl. I didn't realize how many kids were into it. But they are, and it was amazing to see. Talking to people from all over the world, asking why they were there, having Brazilians and South Africans reply to me with huge smiles on their faces and tears in their eyes that they came here to "Be closer to God" and to "see the Holy Man"- it made me really think about my religion and where it all comes from, seeing how much these kids from all over the world have been affected by it.
Conclusion: the Pope's a good guy.

[Katecab99]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 9:43am

people....this is like our political debates - everyone has an opinon and/or a belief system! respect what others believe or don't believe and leave it alone before slinging offensive insults at each other!

can't we all just get along?! why can't we be friends?

[ckeaton]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 9:52am

Because there are a lot of bitter b*tches, who crave understanding and support, but don't know how to give it.

It's really ugly, and I'm sick of it.

(Cue bitter b*tch to tell me that I can leave, or just not read bitter b*tchy posts)

[Feodor Sverdlov]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 10:08am

ck, you are so right. I was immediately struck by that when I joined this Board. Those posting about people who do not respect or accept them, and so many posts from the very same people, showing no respect or acceptance, of others. Makes my head whirl! I don't get it. Pehaps people should start practicing what they preach. And, there isn't a single person on the face of this earth who can stand in judgement of this Pope! You who are without sin, cast the first stone.

Updated On: 4/2/05 at 10:08 AM

[paradox_error]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 10:13am

This is repulsive...

The Pope is not even dead yet, and yet you are talking about him as if he is not even human.

I don't care if you don't agree with the religion, but at least show some respect for the man.

And that man is a good man, and living in Poland, I can truly see the magnitude of his actions. He was an ardent supporter of the Solidarity Movement in the 1980's, and that ultiately resulted in Poland's freedom from Communism.

For that alone, he deserves respect, and doesn't deserve such awful treatment, even if it is just on a Broadway Message Board...

[Feodor Sverdlov]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 10:31am

Spooky, I agree with what you say about the start of Christianity. Of course, the first split was between Greece and Rome; and it is a matter of which side you take (that was due to the explanation of the Holy Trinity); but it's all way too complicated (believe me, I know, I have a PhD from Cambridge in Theology and my thesis almost killed me!); but, we agree on the simplification aspect, so we'll leave it at that.

[Albin]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 12:17pm

Updated On: 4/2/05 at 12:17 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 1:56pm

You know--you guys keep repeating that same old tired song. Anytime us liberals disagree with conservative povs, you launch your insults and dismissives and holier than thou attitudes. Whether it's the Pope or George W. Bush, you've hurled these self righteous barbs at us.

Did you ever think that maybe WE have strong opinions--and a right to express them?

I WILL NOT respect any man that says the things that he has said about gays and lesbians. I DO NOT see this Pope as good. I don't give two ****s that billions of people love and worship him. We have been told we were wrong for not respecting Reagan and Shrubya in all the same ways you are going at us now.

Well, I'm tired of your self-proclaimed superiority. And the more you hurl it at me--the LOUDER I am going to get.

And the IRONY? Some of you are the FIRST to attack the Clintons in exactly the same way we attack Bush. It's called hypocrisy.

And, yes, if these anti-Pope posts are deeply wounding you--just don't click on the threads. It's the same thing that's been said to me. I pass the advice right back at ya.

[orion59]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 2:00pm

"don't forget looking the other way when thousands of innocent boys are sexually abused and then reassigning the guilty son-of-a-bitc*"

You can't really hold the Pope responsible for that. As leader of something as large and widespread as the Catholic church, he cannot possible know everything that occurs in every small parish around the world. The Pope also is not responsible for the assignment or reassignment of priests. The blame for what happened to those children lies on the shoulders of the cardinals and bishops charged with the responsibility or running the parishes. They are ones reponsible for the assignment of parish priests, they are the one to whom the wrong doing was reported and they are the ones who were reponsible for doing the right thing and choosing not to.

When the scandal broke in the Boston area, Cardinal Law was removed from his position by the pope. I hear he is now peacefully residing somewhere else because the authorities did not press criminal charges against him for his cover up of these crimes. That is the fault of the state judicial system. The pope did what he should have done by excummincating the priests who were broght to trail but, that is all he can do. He doesn't have the power to imprision them. Furthemore, if the state chooses not to prosecute a cardinal due to lack of evidence, the pope is not able to do much more than relieve the cardinal of his duties. Yet evberyone puts personal blame on the pope. I guess it goes with being in that position. Unfortunately, he and millions of innocent priests who have done no wrong, will forever bear the burden of the crimes of a few sick men.

[Feodor Sverdlov]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 2:12pm

Not to mention that the majority of these incidents happened before he was Pope.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 2:57pm

Here's a great article which might illustrate why some gay Roman Catholics are not exactly filled with grief over the imminent passing of JP2:

http://www.planetout.com/news/feature.html?sernum=1123

And, Lest we forget that Knighthood bestowed upon Nazi Kurt Waldheim by his Holiness.....

The Pope & Kurt Waldheim

Updated On: 4/2/05 at 02:57 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 3:40pm

"I WILL NOT respect any man that says the things that he has said about gays and lesbians. I DO NOT see this Pope as good. I don't give two ****s that billions of people love and worship him. We have been told we were wrong for not respecting Reagan and Shrubya in all the same ways you are going at us now."

There's a difference between respecting them for their personal beliefs, and being respectful of their deaths. And also respecting the fact that not everyone agrees with you.

I'm not Catholic, I'm not Republican, and John Paul II didn't feel that I should have a say in what happens to my reproductive organs- but that doesn't mean that I can't be upset that a beloved world figure has died.

[Albin]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 3:43pm

Updated On: 4/2/05 at 03:43 PM

[dededarlin]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 4:09pm

"There are not one hundred people in this world who dislike Catholicism, but there are millions who dislike what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen


the Church, along with the Pope, teach that premarital sex is wrong. They also believe that marriage is a union between a man and a woman. So, being a straight woman, it is wrong for me to have premarital sex with a man. likewise, it would be wrong for me to have premarital sex with a woman if I was gay. please understand that the Catholic faith is not against homosexuals in any way. It is against sexual acts that go against what they believe to be God's will. I know how many people are against what they believe to be Catholicism, and I know many people have had horrible experiences with a person or people who claim to be Catholic. I am sorry for this. But, stupid, evil, and ignorant remarks by one person do not represent the values of an entire religion. It is stereotyping to believe that every Catholic is close-minded, homophobic, and arrogant. Please go research on the actual values of the Catholic church before you are offended by what you presume them to be. I know many of you will not believe what I am saying, so please don't jump on my back. I just had to defend what I believe to be right.
oh yeah, and please respect the Pope.
thanks.

[Thenardier]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 4:13pm

Well, I'm JEwish...and we Jews get along fine without having a head "rabbi"

So....

[paradox_error]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 4:56pm

and...

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 5:04pm

no.. they have no problem with homos.. i guess we were all dilusional when he said that catholics should not support any measures to bring equal rights to gay men and women...

[paradox_error]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 5:28pm

Boze Bogoslawu Papierz Jana Pawla Drugiego

[Feodor Sverdlov]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 5:30pm

Boze Bogoslawu Papierz Jana Pawla Drugiego

[dededarlin]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 5:32pm

equal rights meaning marriage? no, the Pope would not want Catholics to support gay marriage because, in the Catholic viewpoint, marriage is between a man and a woman. being against gay marriage does not always have to do with being against homosexuals as people.

[WindyCityActor]

Posted: 4/2/05 at 7:17pm

How about Suzie?