Director Jamie Lloyd next project is Phantom- Page 2

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:13am

Perhaps, but in the stage play, she is an adult with an adult job at a theater. The age of consent in France is 15. 

American society is not comfortable with age differences in romantic relationships. When we see an older man and younger woman, we often automatically make generalizations. 

The facts are that the Phantom's romantic love for Christine is unrequited. It's also important to remember his response when Christine asked if he was going to rape her: "The fate which condemns me to wallow in blood has also denied me the joys of the flesh". This is repeated when Christine kissed him and the Phantom cannot even put his arms around her in a hug. Not exactly sexual assault. 

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:17am

I don't see anything in those lines that equates to sexual assault or grooming. Now if I met a guy at a bar and he said "I'm in you mind", I wouldn't say oh man he's trying to groom me. I would just say that it's weird and creepy, but in a show called PHANTOM, that's what it's supposed to be.  He's a PHANTOM for goodness sake, he's not a kindergarten teacher. He's supposed to be mystical and ethereal and mysterious and WEIRD.

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:20am

KevinKlawitter said:

"Sing once again with me / our strange duet / my power over you / grows stronger yet / and through you turn from me / to glance behind / the Phantom of the opera is there / inside your mind"

not exactly subtle."

 

In addition: 

I have brought you
That our passions may fuse and merge
In your mind you've already succumbed to me
Dropped all defenses, completely succumbed to me
Now you are here with me, no second thoughts
You've decided, decided

Past all thought of if or when
No use resisting
Abandon thought and let the dream descend
What raging fire shall flood the soul?
What rich desire unlocks its door?
What sweet seduction lies before us

 

Definitely not subtle.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:24am

No use resisting what though?  That he wants her to sing for him. Not have sex with him. 

[KevinKlawitter]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:40am

Phantom4ever said: "No use resisting what though? That he wants her to sing for him. Not have sex with him."

It's a metaphor.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:51am

Ok.   A metaphor compares two unlike things. What are the two unlike things being compared?  

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 11:57am

Well, Christine is usually cast with someone in the 25 - 35 range, even if she is a teenager in the novel. And he never actually does any kind of "assault." What makes him scary is that the threat is always there, but he never actually hurts her. That said, he does murder several other characters in cold blood, so...

Personally, I think the original staging did a great job of "toeing the line" with that stuff, and to lean into any "predator" type staging too hard would ruin the show. He needs to be a "sympathetic villain"/anti-hero, not a true monster, otherwise the audience has no reason to care about him.

[pmensky]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 12:06pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Well, Christine is usually cast with someone in the 25 - 35 range, even if she is a teenager in the novel. And he never actually does any kind of "assault." What makes him scary is that thethreatis always there, but he never actually hurts her. That said, he does murder several other characters in cold blood, so...

Personally, I think the original staging did a great job of "toeing the line" with that stuff, and to lean into any "predator" type staging too hard would ruin the show. He needs to be a "sympathetic villain"/anti-hero, not a true monster, otherwise the audience has no reason to care about him."

And Emmy Rossum turned 17 years old three days before principal filming of the movie began.

[KevinKlawitter]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 12:46pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Well, Christine is usually cast with someone in the 25 - 35 range, even if she is a teenager in the novel. And he never actually does any kind of "assault." What makes him scary is that thethreatis always there, but he never actually hurts her. That said, he does murder several other characters in cold blood, so...

Personally, I think the original staging did a great job of "toeing the line" with that stuff, and to lean into any "predator" type staging too hard would ruin the show. He needs to be a "sympathetic villain"/anti-hero, not a true monster, otherwise the audience has no reason to care about him."

What makes the Phantom a great character is that he can be predatory and manipulative while still being sympathetic. He's been so damaged by self-hatred on top of being abused and manipulated by those around him that the idea of a normal, functional relationship is alien to him. He feels he has to manipulate Christine into falling in love with him because he doesn't think there's any other way to build a relationship with her. He is a groomer, and a murderer, and a borderline sociopath, but he's a victim as well as a victimizer. In other circumstances he might have been able to transcend his disability and use his brilliance for constructive ends. That's what makes him a tragic figure and not merely a sleazy or villainous one.

[Valentina3]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 1:00pm

"What's really dangerous here is throwing around words like grooming and sexual assault. These are serious, life-changing crimes and trying to make the Phantom a rapist or a predator does quite a disservice to SA victims and survivors. This is going into boy-who-cried-wolf territory and pretty soon SA victims will be doubted even more than they already are because we are so sloppy about using the terms. "

I never said sexual assault but there is constant emotional trauma and sometimes physical assaults (er murders anyone?) he is making every single person go through. As for grooming, I genuinely didn't think that would up for debate lol. He has been hearing her thoughts and prayers and desires forever without her knowing he was listening in, including knowing that her father said an "angel would come". He overtook that place in her mind, actively referring to himself as angel over and over again. Plus all the other examples people mentioned. I'm also low-key sick of people's ages being brought up as if someone's age somehow magically protects them from being gaslit / groomed into falling in a powerful person's trap. Literally millions of 40+ year old people in America think Trump won the Presidency in 2020.

The Distinctive Baritone said it pretty well, that the original staging toes the line well. Although I think it goes well over the line and then some near the end, which is when I think the performers' individual choices starts making a pretty big difference. Some shows I do not care about Raoul and want Christine to end up with Phantom, some shows I want Christine to end up fully free of both these men. And I get it, it's theater and yes there's room for interpretation and subjective perspectives etc., but that's kinda what I was in my original post. I would like to see a production where the director's perspective is very clearly that "hey this guy is talented and powerful and very seductive, but also, he is not a good person so i'm not going to pretend he is" or even a slightly twisted spin on Christine where she is actively seeking Phantom so he could train her and she can finally get to the level of stardom she's dreamed of (I mean the text wouldn't have to be altered much - she ends up with a very wealthy patron; her arch nemesis thinks she sees right through her, what if that's who Christine actually is? etc. etc.)

Final thing. I personally don't much stock into whether Phantom and Christine had sex or not in the original play. Because despite Love Never Dies being framed as an anthology with same characters instead of a sequel, I personally feel that ALW made it part of the cannon that they had been intimate by making Christine & Erik have a biological son together.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 3:13pm

pmensky said: "And Emmy Rossum turned 17 years old three days before principal filming of the movie began."

Yeah, it was a “different time.” That casting decision has not aged well. She also was too young to be able to properly sing the score…Generally, I try to pretend that movie never happened. The casting of the two leads, among other poor directorial choices, make it unwatchable IMO.

 

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 3:31pm

Can you say something didn’t age well when it was always looked at as a “wtf was Schumacher thinking” moment from the day it was announced?

[marytylermoore]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 3:35pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "pmensky said: "And Emmy Rossum turned 17 years old three days before principal filming of the movie began."

Yeah, it was a “different time.” That casting decision has not aged well. She also was too young to be able to properly sing the score…Generally, I try to pretend that movie never happened. The casting of the two leads, among other poor directorial choices, make it unwatchable IMO.

"

I caught a screening of the film earlier this year at Alamo Drafthouse and I was shocked at how much I enjoyed the film as opposed to my last viewing nearly-20 years ago. My main takeaway was that Schumacher was largely faithful to Prince and his production and that the largest faults of the movie were faults of the actual text/original production...once you get past Butler's vocals. It was goofy and gorgeous to look at on a giant screen

[starlightlocamotion]

Posted: 9/27/23 at 3:44pm

This would require the closure of the current west end production // OR opening first in New York (which seems crazy to me so soon after the brilliant originals closure this year).

[Lot666]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 9:02am

Phantom4ever said: "Christine kissed him and the Phantom cannot even put his arms around her in a hug. Not exactly sexual assault."

By today's standards, Christine is the sexual assaulter in the final lair scene.

[pmensky]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 10:25am

Lot666 said: "Phantom4ever said: "Christine kissed him and the Phantom cannot even put his arms around her in a hug. Not exactly sexual assault."

By today's standards, Christine is the sexual assaulter in the final lair scene."

A kidnapping victim using a tactic to distract their captor into freeing them is not sexual assault, and the comparison is creepy and inappropriate. 

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 10:38am

God gave her the courage to show the Phantom that he wasn't alone. That's why she kissed him. Not to distract him. 

[pmensky]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 10:48am

Phantom4ever said: "God gave her the courage to show the Phantom that he wasn't alone. That's why she kissed him. Not to distract him."

Yeah, then she ran for her life to get away from the psycho, kidnapping, murderous creep who lives in the basement. You’re totally right, no distraction going on there.

[Kad]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 10:49am

Dude kills 2 people during the action of the play and attempts to kill others, manipulates, abducts, and threatens Christine, and writes a crummy opera. He is not a romantic antihero despite Webber’s best attempts to make him one (taken to ridiculous ends in Love Never Dies).

Updated On: 9/28/23 at 10:49 AM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 11:07am

Kad said: "Dude kills 2 people during the action of the play and attempts to kill others, manipulates, abducts, and threatens Christine, and writes a crummy opera. He is not a romantic antihero despite Webber’s best attempts to make him one (taken to ridiculous ends in Love Never Dies)."

I sense that at least two generations of middle aged, theatre-loving women might disagree with you there

[Kad]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 11:24am

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Kad said: "Dude kills 2 people during the action of the play and attempts to kill others, manipulates, abducts, and threatens Christine, and writes a crummy opera. He is not a romantic antihero despite Webber’s best attempts to make him one (taken to ridiculous ends in Love Never Dies)."

I sense that at least two generations of middle aged, theatre-loving women might disagree with you there "

They would and it’s wild. 
 

(I also don’t think in the original staging that the Phantom and Christine have sex, consensual or not, but it is heavily implied by both staging and the actual lyrics and tone of “Music of the Night.”  I would be curious to see how making that explicit would change how the audience perceives the Phantom- I would imagine it would tilt the show from gothic romance to more horror/thriller, which would be interesting and seems to me to be fully supported by both the text and the action of the characters).

[Dolly80]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 11:36am

I can categorically tell you this is NOT true. He is not doing Phantom.

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 1:23pm

The rumor I’ve heard is that he’s doing the Maury Yeston Phantom, not Webber.