Posted: 2/9/18 at 12:23am
Posted: 2/9/18 at 12:54am
I find this all kind of crazy, no? I mean the original cartoon she's voiced by Demi Moore....She's been played on stage by countless white women....I just don't get it? When did Esmerelda become Celie?
I also don't understand this whole new thing of you have to cast someone exactly like the character. Like only Argentinian born actresses can play Evita. Or only Jewish people are allowed in Fiddler. Makes no sense to me.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 12:56am
gypsy101 said: "aimeric said: "...This whole debate becomes very odd when you rememberthat in Victor Hugo's original novel, Esmeralda was ethnically 100% white French by birth, and had simply been kidnapped by gypsies as a baby and then raised among them"
This is exactly what i thought of when i first saw this thread. The character wasn't colored originally.
bk said "White, BTW, is a color."
No it is not, don't be ridiculous. it's 2018. people who are white are not "colored.""
I don't give a crap about 2018 and white is a color, whether you like it or not.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 1:16am
I guess if you were having a conversation and listing "colors" and you said "white," you wouldn't be wrong, but I understand both sides.
But I agree with whoever said that people seem to think it's "White and everyone else is colored." Which I don't understand at all. Especially when it comes to casting. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I'm less offended by a "white" Evita, then I would be about someone white in "In The Heights."
Posted: 2/9/18 at 5:31am
I joked to my friend that they probably thought Esmeralda was African-American, and by George it seems to be true LOL. Talk about cluelessness. Of course she is indeed "white" in the book but only the Dingo Pictures version bothered to retain that element.
The most interesting thing about this is how as others have mentioned that it highlights the weird binary we have seen arise, white or non-white. If a Chinese girl had been cast would there have been an uproar? She's no more Romani than a white girl.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 6:50am
Let's not forget when Esmerelda was played by Irish lass Maureen O'Hara.
On second thought... maybe we should forget that.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 9:09am
bk said: "gypsy101 said: "aimeric said: "...This whole debate becomes very odd when you rememberthat in Victor Hugo's original novel, Esmeralda was ethnically 100% white French by birth, and had simply been kidnapped by gypsies as a baby and then raised among them"
This is exactly what i thought of when i first saw this thread. The character wasn't colored originally.
bk said "White, BTW, is a color."
No it is not, don't be ridiculous. it's 2018. people who are white are not "colored.""
I don't give a crap about 2018 and white is a color, whether you like it or not.
"
You're not very clear in your rants. What exactly are you offended by in my posts? That I’m being racist against white people? That I don’t treat casting a musical like American Idol? Try proof-reading, it helps.
Oh, and congratulations on your “critically lauded” community theatre production of Lil’Abner in the middle of nowhere. What would the American theatre do without you?
Posted: 2/9/18 at 10:06am
There's two very different and hard to reconcile arguments to be had in a casting issue like this. First, the tendency for white people to view casting as a white/non-white issue. The idea that whiteness is the norm and all other races and ethnicities are a deviation and thus all belong in the same category is hugely problematic, both within niches like this and one a broader scale. The oppression, stereotypes, and historical subjugation that different races have faced, both in American society and around the world, are vastly different, and to boil them all down to an amalgamation is a disservice to those groups' unique perspectives and histories, and a form of racism in itself.
But, at the same time, in a production that necessitates (or, regardless of previous casting, should necessitate) a POC, I would certainly feel more comfortable with an actress of color of any race being offered the role than I would a white actress. While an Asian or a black actress may not carry the same historical/ancestral/contemporary context a Romani woman would, she would at the very least understand what it means to be a WOC. And, beyond any sort of potential racial undertones within the text of the show itself, she would be given the opportunity to lead a musical, an opportunity that (especially in high school theatre) very few get the opportunity to. That's all relevant if the production must be Hunchback, though. The second major issue with this controversy is that the director did not know his talent pool, or did and chose to ignore it.
A more extreme example of this was an all-white HS Hairspray a few years back in Texas, a little after my own Texas HS put it on. Knowing good and well that the demographics of the school could not support a show that required racial diversity, the director decided to move forward and cast from their talent pool, which was white. If you, at any level of theatre, want to do a production and do not have the required cast for it, you cannot do it. Plain and simple. I particularly liked Rainah's post on the matter. When my school did Hairspray, our usual crowd of actors was predominately white and Hispanic. Before the show was announced, my director worked with the choir director and other campus leaders to get the word out that the show was going to require black actors. Only when he felt that we had a strong casting pool outside of the usual faces did he announce auditions. And, when those black actors who had previously been uninterested in theatre (some of whom because they saw our previous shows and didn't see a place for themselves) were cast, they were supported. They were given vocal lessons and dance lessons and just genuinely emotionally encouraged, and many of those actors came back season after season. In just one production, our department went from predominately white to very evenly represented, and that diversity has maintained years down the line. That is why casting like this, especially in a high school or community setting, is so important. To some, it may seem like no big deal, but to those who so rarely see themselves on stage, roles designed for POC can be truly transformative on a personal and structural level.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 10:56am
RippedMan said: "I find this all kind of crazy, no? I mean the original cartoon she's voiced by Demi Moore....She's been played on stage by countless white women....I just don't get it? When did Esmerelda become Celie?
I also don't understand this whole new thing of you have to cast someone exactly like the character. Like only Argentinian born actresses can play Evita. Or only Jewish people are allowed in Fiddler. Makes no sense to me."
We've already had a discussion on Evita casting controversy with the recent Boston production. Evita Person was a white woman, for all intents and purposes, and that was part of the reason she became so beloved. The ethnic grouping called Latino/a/x is more of a modern terminology of racists to create a new/less racist term for "mulattoes" from nations south of the United States. Argentina has the second largest immigrant population next to the United States, so there can be an argument made that the cast of any production of Evita should not fall into the same category as musicals like The Color Purple, Dreamgirls, Hamilton, In the Heights, Hairspray, Scottsboro Boys, or Once on this Island, were the racial make up of the cast is integral to the shows themes.
Back to Hunchback, which is not Aladdin nor The Lion King. Esmeralda is a religious minority....The whole purpose of her character is the further what it means to be an outcast. Unlike Quasimodo she is isn't ostracized from society because of how she looks, but because of how she thinks. If one were to do a production where Quasimodo is done in the vane of Violet or The Elephant man where a beautiful man is cast and the audience has to feel his ugly, then I could see the necessity of casting a an actress that is ethnically different from the rest of the cast to make this theme more prevalent. Otherwise it shouldn't matter, just because the role originated with Ciara Renee doesn't mean that the role is a black role. We don't see people being up in arms every time The Leading Player in Pippin is played by a white actor despite it only being played on Broadway by a POC.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 11:19am
Call_me_jorge said: "White is a combination of all colors. Black is the absence of color. This is grade school stuff."
In regards to paint mixing, it's the other way 'round. 
It's only when referring to light that black demonstrates an absence of color - but that's really an absence of light (regardless of the color of the light), rather than an absence of color.
I don't know if it's possible to mix light to create a color (or remove the naturally occurring colors in light to create black). You can imitate a 'mixture' by using a catalyst like a gel (in theater) or paint that physically tints the light's source. To 'create' black, you would have to extinguish the source of the light, but that's very different than mixing or removing color.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 11:25am
Does anyone in grade schools protest when nativity plays are presented with white kids playing Middle Eastern characters? Just curious.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 11:27am
PatrickDC said: "Here’s a link to the production the kids are performing in lieu of Hunchback."
^^ This is the perfect response regarding this topic!
The whole debacle proves that the human brain is not completely developed until at least mid-twenty years of age, and more likely not until a person is in their 30s (the participation of the neo-nazis proves that anomalies exist).
Posted: 2/9/18 at 11:35am
The Distinctive Baritone said: "bk said: "gypsy101 said: "aimeric said: "...This whole debate becomes very odd when you rememberthat in Victor Hugo's original novel, Esmeralda was ethnically 100% white French by birth, and had simply been kidnapped by gypsies as a baby and then raised among them"
This is exactly what i thought of when i first saw this thread. The character wasn't colored originally.
bk said "White, BTW, is a color."
No it is not, don't be ridiculous. it's 2018. people who are white are not "colored.""
I don't give a crap about 2018 and white is a color, whether you like it or not.
"
You're not very clear in your rants. What exactly are you offended by in my posts? That I’m being racist against white people? That I don’t treat casting a musical like American Idol? Try proof-reading, it helps.
Oh, and congratulations on your “critically lauded” community theatre production of Lil’Abner in the middle of nowhere. What would the American theatre do without you?"
I read your posts just fine, chum. You kept going on about a student population of 1600 as if that had anything to do with anything in terms of who and how many auditioned for this particular show. As to Li'l Abner, well, no, not community theater you clueless twit, but nice try. As to what I've done for the American musical theatre? Well...
Posted: 2/9/18 at 11:40am
Posted: 2/9/18 at 12:07pm
As has been pointed out, Esmerelda is not, by birth, Romani, she is white. So the objecting student and her mother are misguided. So the conversation in that regard is pointless.
However, if they object to a school casting an all white show, and that school has a population including students of color, then have at it.
But that doesn't seem to be the case here. What's happened is apparently an objection arising more out of ignorance and mistaken assumptions (like Cleopatra being African) than thoughtfulness.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 1:07pm
I'd say the assumption was more rooted in the fact that, in its La Jolla and Paper Mill runs and on the original (American) recording, Esmeralda was played by a woman of color. But let's not assume anyone actually did research into the show before auditioning; I mean, they're only theater kids.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 1:17pm
"I'd say the assumption was more rooted in the fact that, in its La Jolla and Paper Mill runs and on the original (American) recording, Esmeralda was played by a woman of color."
Understandable; however, precedent of a person of color playing a role does not mean that no white person may ever play that (white) role again - see the character Pyotr Kirillovich Bezukhov in Natasha, Pierre, etc., etc.,etc.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 1:31pm
Indeed, white people have played the part in several major productions. I'm just saying I'd be a little more forgiving than some people seem to be in this thread of a kid hearing the recording, reading about the show, and thinking they had more of a shot at the part than they did.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 2:18pm
Complicating this discussion is the fact that in the musical, there's clearly an element of racial prejudice to the plight of the Gypsies... but Esmeralda (who is white in the book but not canonically so in the movie or musical) is the only Gypsy usually cast as a person of color, and the rest of the Gypsies typically double as the French.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 3:06pm
The Distinctive Baritone said: "Look, I wasn’t looking to get into a fight. You’re the one who took a thoughtful, civil discussion about a particular situation and made it all about you. Let’s just move on. Have a good weekend."
You have a peculiar way of not looking for a fight. I didn't make it all about me - I used an example of the way I cast. You were offensive and got personal. That's looking for a fight, IMO. I will have a fine weekend, thank you.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 3:18pm
Since the original Esmeralda was Caucasian (or Euro -something), it seems more derogatory to cast a person of color in the role, as it implies that by doing so, the character will play as more of an 'outcast', or lower class.
Why didn't the director choose to defend their choice of casting, as opposed to acquiescing to the mob?
Posted: 2/9/18 at 3:22pm
I don't remember if we were told the steps that happened before it was cancelled. Often, this kind of thing goes over the director's head to the principal/superintendent and takes away his/her choice in the matter.
This totally reminds me of what went down with The Scottsboro Boys. People made assumptions (that it was racist because it used a minstrel show as the framing device) and rather that try to have those people UNDERSTAND why a minstrel show was being used, those ill informed protesters steamrolled over the production.
And we're going to see far more of this mob mentality = right in the years to come.
Posted: 2/9/18 at 4:43pm
qolbinau said: White people can't play any person of colour role, but any person of colour can play any person of colour role regardless of their background and the background of the character.
Does an African American have more moral right to play an Indian character than a white person?
Very intriguing commentary here - nice job!
Posted: 2/9/18 at 4:54pm
John Adams said: "
Why didn't the director choose to defend their choice of casting, as opposed to acquiescing to the mob?"
Unfortunately - this is never an option. He would have been accused of being a racist neo-nazi and suffered terrible consequences. The political climate is very interesting today - rather than have any real dialogue or argument it is very easy for people to shout others down as racist, ignorant and/or bigoted without there being any substance behind these terms. Those that have concerns with particular decisions or arguments don't have such a cheap shot available to them.
It's so sad/frustrating because the modern "SJWs" always have good intentions, but often fail on the execution of these good intentions. I hope this movement can improve because it's not just becoming a parody of itself - it is a parody of itself. And it's across a broad spectrum of different domains and issues, too.
Updated On: 2/9/18 at 04:54 PM
Posted: 2/9/18 at 5:29pm
quolbinau -
I think you are quite right. The reason why I am so interested in this Hunchback controversy is because I am a high school drama teacher myself, and a few years ago I was also subjected to an angry mob of students when their friend, a POC, lost out to a white girl for the lead in the spring musical when many felt that she had "paid her dues" in smaller roles and had earned it. The role is clearly written to be a white woman and is traditionally played by one, so it was not the same kind of situation. I was open to reinterpreting the role (especially since it's just high school anyway), but the white girl was simply a much better singer, and had also paid her dues - more so, in my opinion. However, the girl who was rejected paired up with another SJW and convinced every single POC in the show to drop out, and I was called a racist. It was totally crazy and very hurtful to me, and made me worry about losing my job.
I am 100% for color-conscious casting and having as diverse a production as possible. But you know, every time a show is cast, some feelings are going to get hurt and someone is going to say it's all unfair, because ultimately it comes down to the subjective opinions of only one or two people. But this Ithaca High School situation is just mind-boggling.
