IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

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IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 12:48pm

I'm curious. What was it, exactly, that had these boards (and most SMASH recappers) fully in the Ivy camp?

Was it Karen's ease into which she became a star? (perfect, perfect Karen). That doesn't make much sense as these boards love Laura Osnes who seems to have had a similar, easy trajectory. Or was it merely the weak performances by Kat McPhee? If she had been the same character played by a better equipped actress would that have made a difference. Or maybe it wasn't her acting, maybe it was that Kat was an "outsider", not someone like Megan Hilty who is "one of us", someone from the theatuh.

Was it just Megan is such a talented Broadway baby that she so easily showed up Karen whenever they performed (I will continue to argue, however, the camera itself did not love Megan as it loved Kat).

Cause let's face it. Ivy Lynn was HORRIBLE. While Karen, a bit naive, a bit sugary, was basically, truly a good person. Of course it didn't help the show didn't know whose side it was on either. They tried to redeem Ivy this season but I could not forget her awfulness from Season One.

As truly bad as she was last season, the icing on the cake was her line about Hit List never making it to Broadway if Kyle Bishop hadn't died. Imagine if the lead of whatever competing musical that was up against Rent the year it won had said that??? How all but the most snarky ("but its true") people would HATE her. And yes, I know SMASH is far from the real world. But Ivy having said something so terrible (and it was a truly terrible thing to say) she would be ostracized by the community for years. For YEARS! Now, as for her winning the Tony, the ballots may have gone out before she said that, so I will not object to her winning. But the reception she received? That quote was on YouTube!! Everyone knows what she said. If this were the real Tony awards (and again, I know SMASH and "reality" rarely ever went together) the community would have been far more offended by what she said than what Derek did! Far more. For better or worse. And we should have been deeply offended too. But the "I'm so glad Ivy won!" posts have made me sorta angry. (I personally would have preferred Audra McDonald winning for "House of Flowers" as she seems to be a genuinely good person with the requisite talent).

Oddly, obviously, no one here had a problem with hating another sociopathic character even though he was played by "one of our own" as well. I don't get it.

I have a high moral compass when it comes to TV characters. I get disgusted when I notice people(usually straight men) who idolize Tony Soprano or Walter White. And though Ivy Lynn's crimes are of a far less lethal variety, shame on the queens who think talent trumps civility. As much as I really wanted to strangle Kat McPhee at times, that's why I was always on Team Karen.

Updated On: 5/27/13 at 12:48 PM

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 12:59pm

" maybe it was that Kat was an "outsider", not someone like Megan Hilty who is "one of us", someone from the theatuh."

HAHAHAHA it better not be that reason because many of these regular posters arent on broadway and never will be so it cant be that...

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 12:59pm

But she wasn't all that nice.

But I think the biggest reason is that the character of Karen as played by McPhee had no talent. And therefore, the character of Karen has no personality, no sex appeal, no redeeming qualities and she was boring

If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it? These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:04pm

The whole Karen Cartwright narrative hinged on her being a supremely talented girl who bursts out of the chorus and blows everyone away. As played by McPhee, many of us never saw it. As dramamama says, little-to-no charisma or sex appeal, and a voice that seemed ill-suited to musical theatre.

Also--nothing about McPhee-as-Karen screamed Marilyn Monroe at all, yet the show tried to shove the concept of her as the ideal Marilyn down the viewers' throats. Hilty-as-Ivy seemed such a naturally perfect Marilyn from the start that it always seemed like a waiting game for her to take on the part.

"You travel alone because other people are only there to remind you how much that hook hurts that we all bit down on. Wait for that one day we can bite free and get back out there in space where we belong, sail back over water, over skies, into space, the hook finally out of our mouths and we wander back out there in space spawning to other planets never to return hurrah to earth and we'll look back and can't even see these lives here anymore. Only the taste of blood to remind us we ever existed. The earth is small. We're gone. We're dead. We're safe." -John Guare, Landscape of the Body

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:06pm

"these boards love Laura Osnes"

This board doesn't. At all.

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:06pm

"But I think the biggest reason is that the character of Karen as played by McPhee had no talent."

Thats complete BS and u know it. Kat has obvious talent and is a great singer. Was she the best in the cast? No. But could she sing like a freakin pro? Hell yeas. She may not be as strong as hilty but to say has no talent is complete ****.

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:10pm

Ivy was a hideous, hideous person for much of the first season, but her performances were always excellent.

Karen's weren't.

I don't think Katherine McPhee is talentless. She has a barnstorming singing voice, and gave several great performances in the first season - I happen to think she did a lovely job of the Mambo and Never Give All The Heart (and Don't Forget Me, despite how little that made sense). But she wasn't right for Marilyn, and she wasn't right for Karen. Karen should have come across as the sweetest, most naive girl in the world in the first season - McPhee has always been too steely and poised for that. Laura Osnes would have been perfect for the role, true - but if you're looking at TV actresses, someone like Dreama Walker from the recently cancelled Don't Trust The Bitch in Apartment 23 would have been able to convey the likeability and innocence required.

People aren't glad Ivy won. They're glad Megan Hilty did.

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:13pm

What Dramamama said. There was nothing interesting that Katharine McPhee brought to the role at all. And yes, Karen was certainly not the nice innocent girl either.

Ivy's comment about Kyle may not have been very nice either, but unfortunately, that is the reality of death sometimes. People finally say what has been on their mind. Does it make them insensitive? Sure. But, it doesn't automatically make them a bad person.

"I don't want the pretty lights to come and get me."-Homecoming 2005 "You can't pray away the gay."-Callie Torres on Grey's Anatomy. Ignored Users: suestorm, N2N Nate., Owen22, master bates

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:15pm

I never said McPhee had no talent. I said that KAREN didn't. She certainly didn't exude 'star power'.

#10

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:21pm

Of course Karen had talent. She knocked it out of the park in Boston. She sang the hell out of those songs!

#11

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:25pm

In YOUR opinion. The script certainly tells us that but most of us watching totally disagree.

#12

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:26pm

One could convincingly pull off the Marilyn Monroe character written for the Bombshell musical in the how, and the other was played by Katherine McPhee. The character wasn't the problem. The actor was the problem. They needed to cast someone who could go toe to toe with Megan Hilty and not be swallowed whole. Kat McPhee was not that actor.

#13

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:26pm

Didn't we come to agreement years ago that when we state opinions we didn't have to write "in my opinion" because the fact that we are posting it next to our avatars and screen names makes the point for us? Or am I imagining it?

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

#14

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:26pm

At the beggining of season 1, I was rootting for Karen, simply because I felt I like I had to. All of my acting friends who were fans of the show favored Ivy because her character was more inspirational, she was more determined and more talented.

SMASH is not a Disney movie, it's a fictional portrayal of the competitive world of Broadway, so it would've been really stupid if Ivy had accomplished her goals through good deeds and positive thinking.

#15

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:30pm

No, but since it is FICTION it would have been incredibly boring.

#16

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:30pm

That dog faced bottle blonde is a "Broadway beast- she's one of theirs. So they love her with the senseless devotion of a starving chihuahua.

Katherine McPhee had a different background so she'll always be treated like "stunt casting"- that most hated and abhorred practice ever.

#17

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:32pm

Oh yeah cause broadway world posters are experts lol don't make me laugh.

I don't think Karen was as vocally strong as Ivy but IMO Karen completely held her own with ivy and i even prefer some of Kat's renditions. Idk why Kat Mcphee got so much hate on here from whiny internet users but I thought she was excellent and would love to see he on Broadway someday. Plus, The way she did her character may have been up to the director. For all we know her and the director may have had clashing views on the character. I don't think its fair to assume that Kat played it boring when Every person's interpretation is different and should be valued.

#18

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:32pm

Ivy Lynn was an emotional, insecure hot mess last season. I never hated her, I just felt sorry (slightly annoyed) for her. While she is a flawed person, at least they tried to redeem her this season.

And I think the reason why most people are Team Ivy is because she's at least interesting to watch. Which is way more than I can say for Karen Cartwright. Katherine McPhee may be a great singer, but a cardboard cutout can act circles around her. McPhee has no life, no energy, no spark, nothing. She just wanders into a scene and starts mumbling about something with that blank look on her face. She's very Kristen Stewart-ish, now that I think of it. The show tries to push Karen as this "perfect Mary-Sue" with no flaws, but the audience can't relate to that.

Ivy was perfect as Marilyn Monroe and she understood her inside and out. That's why she got a Tony, and after everything she's been through to get that role, she deserved it.

Updated On: 5/27/13 at 01:32 PM

#19

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:39pm

The fact that the "hideous person" is more liked than the naive farm girl coming to Broadway to chase her dreams, says a lot about the two actresses.

Karen's character was really not that challenging and any other actress could've easily had people rooting for her in that role.

#20

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:49pm

Dear Finding Nemo.

When you say that "this board" does not love Laura Osnes, exactly on what data are you basing your statement? I'd say that, as best as I can recall, the majority of posts I've read about Laura Osnes, especially in her current role, have been very positive, and certainly, from what I've heard from those in the industry, she is extremely well liked and respected. I've heard from those who have worked with her that she is very kind and generous to her colleagues.

Do you or others resent her success because of her non-traditional path to Broadway? That's the way it appears. I'm sure that she's worked just as hard to get where she is as have others who have gone on to become stars.

CZJ at opening night party for A Little Night Music, Dec 13, 2009.

#21

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:49pm

"The dog faced bottle blonde"?

I'm just going to assume that you copied and pasted from some awful misogynist blog or something.

ETA Dear Finding Nemo.

When you say that "this board" does not love Laura Osnes, exactly on what data are you basing your statement?

Hi RaidesOnMisucals,

Thanks for your note. I realized it wasn't clear when I posted it but couldn't figure out how to be less muddy in my intention. I think I have it now. The original poster used the phrase "these boards" instead of "the posters on these boards," so I was thinking of us all as a collection of boards, using his construct. I used "this board," meaning me, personally. I see now maybe I could have put "This plank of these boards" but I am not sure that would have been any clearer.

Regardless, whenever I see the name Laura Osnes, I feel like I might break out in hives because she's a TV contestant who got a shortcut entrance to the life a lot of people struggle to attain. I would never see anything she was in, but since I don't see C-list musicals, I don't think that's likely.

Hope that clears things up and you're having a great weekend.

FindingNamo

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

Updated On: 5/27/13 at 01:49 PM

#22

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:52pm

allthatjazz, I'd disagree that the role of Karen wasn't challenging. Extraordinary talents like the that Karen was supposed to have - that with very experience she should just pop up and blow people away - are pretty damn rare, and the show's constant flipflopping on what she did or didn't know about the industry (she's trained! but she doesn't know what dance class is!) amongst other things made her incredibly inconsistent.

Plus, you try saying the dross she had to say in season 2 in a convincing way :p At least most of the terrible writing for Ivy was confined to her comedy storyline in Liaisons...

#23

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:54pm

For me, both girls have beautiful voices. But Megan is an actress - she does everything well - drama, comedy, music....she is the whole package. And Kat Mc.P - not so much. So for example...while vocally, Kat's version of "Don't Forgot Me" is sung extremely well, I feel it's Kat's version - not Marilyn's. Where as in Megan's version, I believe it's Marilyn.

I don't think Katharine could act - as she had the same breathy intonation with all her lines.."I'm Happy, I'm Angry, "I'm Sad"..it all sounded incredibly the same and dull to me. I felt no emotion for her.

If we are talking about character, I think Ivy was more complicated and had more ups and downs...but she accepted that about herself...and so did I. She was interesting and I could love her or hate or anything in between.

But for Karen, I really didn't care. She was pretty much written to be the good girl - but the scripts didn't always bear that out. To me, she was someone who didn't mind getting on her high horse and putting someone else down for their mistakes... while not really taking responsibility for her own. She could be pretty mean when she wanted to be - like with Ana and she never really apologized for anything she did - unlike Ivy who knows when she screws up and says it.

I also felt whenever a show keeps telling me that someone is wonderful, I tend to get ornery and not believe it. For the entire two years, as NBC tried to push the wonderfulness of Karen Cartright, I just dislike her more and more because I didn't see it.

Updated On: 5/27/13 at 01:54 PM

#24

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 1:58pm

I voted for Audra.
She was amazing in HOUSE OF FLOWERS.

#25

IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)

Posted: 5/27/13 at 2:09pm

DeNada, I'm not saying it was easy, acting isn't easy in general, but it was far from a challenging role.

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