IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers)- Page 3

[all that jazz]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:51am

Marianne, I agree that the producers didn't want everyone to like the same one, on the contrary they wanted the audience to pick their lady. Like someone else metioned, it seemed like the show itself didn't know which side it was on.

[Kad]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:51am

I can't wait for the actual Tonys happen so the fictional Tonys can stop being discussed.

[Elphie3]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 11:20am

Here's how it went for me:

In season 1, for the first few episodes, I was kind of tied. I thought the show did a nice job of setting up the talented B'way vet. who has been paying her dues, and needs her big break vs. the "Peggy Sawyer" fresh faced innocent. There were reasons to root for both of them. Ivy was more Marilyn while Karen was more Norma Jean. (Honestly for a while I thought they were going to end up splitting the part and have one girl play Marilyn, and the other play Norma Jean with a full on duet LOL.)

Then Ivy started all her antics. Karen was in the chorus, learning, working hard, and Ivy was being a total brat to her - and lots of other people - not to mention having huge meltdowns - not to mention that she (like Daisy in season 2) slept with the director to get the part, and Karen refused to. Then she slept with Karen's fiance! By the middle of season 1 I was TOTALLY team Karen. Karen just seemed to deserve it more.

But that full on changed at the start of season 2. See, what I think Karen had going for her was that Peggy Sawyer quality. Well, after she became Marilyn she was no longer Peggy Sawyer. She started to turn into (almost) everything I didn't like about Ivy. Now she was the star who was being a brat to everyone, treated like God's gift to the universe, and acting totally entitled. There was no humility, no "wow, I got my big chance, I'd better not screw it up." She was now treating other people the way Ivy had treated her in season 1. Suddenly she went from young innocent we were rooting for to bratty young girl who got everything WAY too easily and never actually had to pay her dues.

And then Ivy calmed WAY down. Seeing how fast Karen turned into a brat I think gave us far more sympathy to Ivy. Ivy'd been at this a long time. She HAD paid her dues. And at the end of the day, despite the fact that she was far more prepared to play Marilyn then Karen was, Derek chose Karen because of some etherial "muse" quality. Not fair. Then Ivy started getting a chance to prove herself away from "Bombshell." She basically saved "Liaisons" with her awesome performance, and diplomatic skills. (Well, at least made it somewhat able to sit through.) She had learned her lesson, and was working hard.

Then entitled Karen gets a crush on some guy and throws away everything she had been working towards - and the biggest break EVER! To follow him to the fringe. What? Even though he'd been nothing but a total jerk to her.

And then Ivy finally gets her big break. And she's more humble this time. In reality, she's FAR more right for Marilyn then Karen was. She has to deal with an insane amount of drama, not to mention the shadow of how "great" Karen was in Boston. And finally, she gets her due. She stands up to Derek, and basically gets her life back together.

So that's why I ended the series as a MAJOR Team Ivy fan.

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 11:23am

A few more examples of Karen being mean-spirited - saying "you can get the next one" and closing the elevator door on Ivy when they were both waiting for the elevator in a public building (get over yourself, it is not your private property), and saying "if you make it there" when Ivy says see you on the red carpet. Even when they were in conflict, Ivy tended to be more gracious towards Karen when they interacted and more complimentary about her talent (assuming she'll be nominated for a Tony, etc.), which is ironic, considering the reality of it all. Karen on the other hand was always pointlessly insulting towards Ivy, which made her look that much bitchier considering how completely untrue it was and how much less talent she had. Ivy always came across as classier in her interactions with Karen, with the exception of the one firing incident which as i mentioned before was matched by one on Karen's end. She even apologized for what she had done wrong to Karen, something that Karen never did at any point, even though she had done similar things and worse to Ivy.


Updated On: 5/28/13 at 11:23 AM

[Owen22]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 11:44am

Take a look at adam.peterson44's two posts, one on the previous page (he of the Aaron Tveit avatar) and one right above this one. His is the type of pro-Ivy ilk that I find disgusting.

He bends over backwards desperately trying to make excuses for a character who has done some truly nasty things, by trying to trump up how Karen, in any way, shape form or in any known universe was EVER anywhere near as horrible as Ivy Lynn (I liked the astute comment from another poster who noted that Karen probably came off much more petulant than written because of Kat's delivery).

Most of AP44's examples of "bad" Karen are basically Karen reacting to something Ivy did to her! Its almost comical. He'd rather be friends with Ivy than Karen? Really? Really? Now, I refuse to list any more of his other skewed examples because he's just gonna try to defend his reality. Which is his reality and nothing I say will change his mind. Though thank you, Mr. Adam, as your's is the type of view that spurred on this particular thread.



Updated On: 5/28/13 at 11:44 AM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 11:52am

Ivy is Broadway royalty. She's blonde. She's more talented. She's sexier. She's fiercer. She won a Tony.

[darquegk]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 12:51pm

Is SMASH misogynistic? Yeah, probably. But at the same time, I think a lot of times it's reductive to say the "good girl didn't have sex with the director," "bad girl did" and then claim it's a judgment on sex itself. Since one of the ONLY major overarching plot points on Smash was the ethics and repercussions of the casting couch, with one of the major characters having a reputation for sexual harassment in his not-so-ethical uses of the Couch, I took the "good girl bad girl" conflict over sex as being less a judgment on women using their bodies, and more on the way those bodies are used in the industry.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:02pm

Derek's repercussions weren't anywhere near as bad as Ivy's. The fact that Ivy slept with Derek was still being brought up at the end of the show. And Ivy herself was heavily judged for sleeping with him.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:04pm

"He'd rather be friends with Ivy than Karen? Really? Really?"

I would neeeevvvvvver be friends with Karen Cartwright. She's so nice. She's not good, she's not bad, she's just nice.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:05pm

Well, it also goes back to this notion that there is an empirical "best" person for every role, and that "best, most deserving" person is being disenfranchised by the "bad girl" who stole the part. In reality, it's a lot less black and white than that. There are many valid takes on a role that can be equally good in different ways and it's usually the vision of the director and creative team which take on the role is desired for a given production. Someone sleeping with someone else to snag a part doesn't lessen their talent or make their take on a role less valid or appropriate or "good" inherently. That's just a construct set up to make the dramatic arc of the story easier to digest. It's harder for the audience to buy that with Karen v. Ivy because Megan Hilty is so obviously talented that it's very hard to write her off as a talentless schemer.

Updated On: 5/28/13 at 01:05 PM

[Elphie3]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:11pm

I do think it's interesting how Ivy and Daisy have been judged differently for sleeping with Derek to "get the part."

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:26pm

Are you serious?

Ivy had the support of the creative team behind her. Plus, where did Ivy actually say "I slept with Derrick so I could be Marilyn." That was never her prerogative.

Whereas Daisy blackmailed Derrick for the part and admitted it.

How can you not see the difference?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:29pm

His is the type of pro-Ivy ilk that I find disgusting.

Owen's (he of the no avatar) comments sound like the ramblings of a crazy person.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:31pm

Ivy also had a semi-serious relationship with Derek. It wasn't just one night on the casting couch.

[gossipguy215]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:33pm

I learned long ago that on these boards, if you think Karen was WAY better than Ivy, you should keep it to yourself. Even if you never saw Ivy as Marilyn, and her version of "Don't Forget Me" sound like she has a bad Halloween Marilyn accent on for the entire song (Megan could have rocked that song if she stopped trying to "imitate an icon" because, no matter how many parallels the show through at you Ivy was NOT Marilyn). Karen should have been Marilyn instead of being exiled to ****ty Hit List, and If they hadn't (stupidly) replaced TR, than that would have happened because you are supposed to HATE Ivy, but I guess that I was the only one that did...

PS I feel kind of stupid saying this, but I had no complaints about KMs acting until I came here...

[Wynbish]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:39pm

"Long ago", as in not even three months?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:52pm

"and If they hadn't (stupidly) replaced TR"

"Of all sad words of tongue or pen,
The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'"

I posted that 100% sarcastically in this instance.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 1:55pm

Clearly, everyone is dealing with their grief in different ways. We're all somewhere on the Kubler-Ross spectrum. Frankly, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross can sit on my face (love you, Paula Vogel!)

But the idea of having a high moral compass for fictional characters is just a titch...odd. It's in fiction where it's safe to indulge our darker angels, reveling in bad behavior and being bored by good behavior because where is the drama in that?

The simultaneous slut-shaming and infantilization of women in this thread (and, indeed, on this show) is just so off-putting. Karen was not 'exiled' to Hit List. She chose that path. Yes...it was a completely unrealistic choice, but please don't take away her agency.

The Evil Daisy, who was the closest thing to actualized vagina dentata outside of the movie TEETH, really painted hard-working actors who just haven't gotten a break in an awful way. This entire business is a constant negotiation with your limits, and it can bring about some seriously difficult decisions that one has to make. Instead of showing us just how hard folks work to get where they are, there was this strange judgment made on the lifers through the vapid vehicle known as Karen Cartwright. Had a better actress played her, perhaps it all wouldn't have seemed so obvious and icky.

Why am I writing so much? I'm like Mrs. Beatty on the Golden Girls when Rose came to tell her she slept with her husband and killed him: if I just keep talking, it won't be real!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:02pm

"The Evil Daisy, who was the closest thing to actualized vagina dentata outside of the movie TEETH, really painted hard-working actors who just haven't gotten a break in an awful way."

Thank you for naming why I hate that awful Mara Davi now.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:18pm

This is the greatest thread in the history of BroadwayWorld.

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:35pm

Here here!

Harvard Medical School is assigning this thread as part of their Psychology classes.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:38pm

I'm completely pro-choice, but anyone who has ever watched tv before knows that if the show continued, Ivy would have had that baby.

[Marianne2]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:40pm

I find it funny how the OP started the thread to not participate and only came back in to disagree with someone who doesn't share their views at all. Sorry Owen22, you are the type of person I hate in fandoms. You can't make people agree with you, just as you have a right to disagree with what they think. But, telling someone they are wrong for their views is ridiculous. You do this with Glee too.

[gossipguy215]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:42pm

""Long ago", as in not even three months?"
I started reading these threads in December, before I decided I wanted to comment.
FYI My entire post was In My Own Opinion.

I am just an abnormality in the respect thatI was a Karen FANatic for the entire run of the show :)

[Owen22]

Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:57pm

"I find it funny how the OP started the thread to not participate and only came back in to disagree with someone who doesn't share their views at all."

I completely cop to being argumentative about some of my views on certain topics (and yes, I'm sure it probably stems from insecurity). But if you weren't so reactionary as to purely read my post, this is different. For better or worse I find some of the pro Ivy rhetoric morally repugnant (and there was plenty of it even when she was at her worst last season) and thus started a thread to explore why. I used that particular posters opinions as an amalgam of that specific type of reasoning I've read on here. And Phyllis is probably right, it does drive me a little crazy.