#26
Posted: 5/27/13 at 2:14pm
Ivy was exciting. Karen was boring.
IVY LYNN vs KAREN CARTWRIGHT (spoilers) — Page 2
#27
Posted: 5/27/13 at 2:16pm
This board doesn't hate Laura Osnes as much as Smash does. Taking away her Oliver role like that.
#28
Posted: 5/27/13 at 2:24pm
Dear FindingNano redux
First, I'm sorry for misspelling your screen name before.
So indirectly, you answered my question, yes, you resent Laura Osnes because she got to where she is through a different route. Yep, she was a reality TV contestant, but so what? A quick trip to Wikipedia reveals the following:
"Laura attended the University of Wisconsin–Stevens Point where she majored in Musical Theatre, a program which the school is nationally known for.
Laura also honed her skills in productions at the acclaimed Children's Theatre Company the Ordway Center for the Performing Arts and the world-renowned Guthrie Theatre before she graduated from Eagan High School
In 2005–2006 she returned to Minneapolis to be a performing apprentice at the Children's Theatre Company, performing in Working, Aladdin Jr., Prom, and Pippi Longstocking. In 2006, she choreographed and starred in Peter Pan at a local community theatre. She also played the lead of Sandy in Grease at the nation's largest dinner theatre the Chanhassen Dinner Theatres, but her run was cut short when she was chosen to compete in the nationally televised Broadway talent competition Grease: You're the One that I Want!."
So it seems to me that she took a very traditional route in terms of her background and preparation, with the obvious exception of the TV show. But she put her time into developing her craft, so I don't think dissing her the way you do makes any sense at all.
And I guess you feel the same way about Jennifer Hudson and Fantasia.
It's OK in my view to say that you don't think she's talented if that's the way you feel. I just don't think it makes sense to RESENT her because she happened to win a reality show that gave her a big break.
First, I'm sorry for misspelling your screen name before.
So indirectly, you answered my question, yes, you resent Laura Osnes because she got to where she is through a different route. Yep, she was a reality TV contestant, but so what? A quick trip to Wikipedia reveals the following:
"Laura attended the University of Wisconsin–Stevens Point where she majored in Musical Theatre, a program which the school is nationally known for.
Laura also honed her skills in productions at the acclaimed Children's Theatre Company the Ordway Center for the Performing Arts and the world-renowned Guthrie Theatre before she graduated from Eagan High School
In 2005–2006 she returned to Minneapolis to be a performing apprentice at the Children's Theatre Company, performing in Working, Aladdin Jr., Prom, and Pippi Longstocking. In 2006, she choreographed and starred in Peter Pan at a local community theatre. She also played the lead of Sandy in Grease at the nation's largest dinner theatre the Chanhassen Dinner Theatres, but her run was cut short when she was chosen to compete in the nationally televised Broadway talent competition Grease: You're the One that I Want!."
So it seems to me that she took a very traditional route in terms of her background and preparation, with the obvious exception of the TV show. But she put her time into developing her craft, so I don't think dissing her the way you do makes any sense at all.
And I guess you feel the same way about Jennifer Hudson and Fantasia.
It's OK in my view to say that you don't think she's talented if that's the way you feel. I just don't think it makes sense to RESENT her because she happened to win a reality show that gave her a big break.
CZJ at opening night party for A Little Night Music, Dec 13, 2009.
#29
Posted: 5/27/13 at 2:28pm
Ditto PalJoey
Ivy all the way!
Katharine Mcphee is a horrid "actress" but she was ok in the musical numbers though
Ivy all the way!
Katharine Mcphee is a horrid "actress" but she was ok in the musical numbers though
#30
Posted: 5/27/13 at 3:18pm
I am going to make a sinple, basic observation.
Megan Hilty has "it"... she has undeniable magentism and star quality.
(In regard to the Osnes debate, it is worth mentioning that Hikty didn't exactly struggle to her current status either... she went from college to Glinda hasnt exactly fallen.. ever.)
Megan Hilty has "it"... she has undeniable magentism and star quality.
(In regard to the Osnes debate, it is worth mentioning that Hikty didn't exactly struggle to her current status either... she went from college to Glinda hasnt exactly fallen.. ever.)
Updated On: 5/27/13 at 03:18 PM
#31
Posted: 5/27/13 at 3:21pm
When Smash began I hadn't seen Katherine McPhee or Megan Hilty in anything, but I was generally aware of them both. I really liked Let Me Be Your Star and interested in the potential rivalry of Karen and Ivy. But Smash lost me as a viewer by the third show of the season by constantly telling me that Karen was wonderful and Ivy was a wannabe but showing me the reverse. I liked the original numbers and ended up watching bits and pieces of the second season until Karen left Bombshell for Hit List. In watching the rest of the season, I was glad to see some balance eventually emerge. I don't mind McPhee's voice at all, but her portrayal of Karen just didn't show me the star quality the characters kept telling me and telling me and TELLING me Karen possessed. Hilty's Ivy was a flawed but talented character who made me root for her.
#32
Posted: 5/27/13 at 4:07pm
Dear FindingNano redux
First, I'm sorry for misspelling your screen name before.
Dear RainedOsMucasils,
Thanks so much for trying again on my screen name. Now, it seems you have mistaken me for somebody who might like Laura Osnes just a little, for I assume a person would have to like her at least just a little to invest the time to take a quick trip over to Wikipedia to find out whatever I'm assuming is the scintillating information you brought back to BWW and reprinted here (I must confess I didn't even read it because I don't like Laura Osnes, even just a little.)
IYRC, I was responding to the person who thought people here didn't like the character of Karen because she didn't pay her dues before getting the lead in two Broadway shows and that person was trying to point out the hypocrisy because "these boards" love Laura Osnes. In fact, I don't even like Laura Osnes and I was trying to make the point that one shouldn't speak in generalities about "these boards" and I presented my dislike of her as an example of why. As it happens, I dislike her for the very reason this person posited "these boards" don't like Karen. It's a remarkable coincidence!
I'm not saying it's logical, it's just a fact that I dismiss anything I hear the woman who won a contest to be in an unnecessary cheap-o Grease revival that was invented for reality TV is connected to out of hand. I just outright say to myself, oh look, that TV contest winner is in something I will never want to see, NEXT! It doesn't matter if you want to present a list of others with similar backgrounds to make sure my feelings about Laura Osnes are consistent across the board, because it doesn't change my feelings about Laura Osnes specifically. They are just feelings, which don't have to be consistent or logical. I hope that makes things clearer.
First, I'm sorry for misspelling your screen name before.
Dear RainedOsMucasils,
Thanks so much for trying again on my screen name. Now, it seems you have mistaken me for somebody who might like Laura Osnes just a little, for I assume a person would have to like her at least just a little to invest the time to take a quick trip over to Wikipedia to find out whatever I'm assuming is the scintillating information you brought back to BWW and reprinted here (I must confess I didn't even read it because I don't like Laura Osnes, even just a little.)
IYRC, I was responding to the person who thought people here didn't like the character of Karen because she didn't pay her dues before getting the lead in two Broadway shows and that person was trying to point out the hypocrisy because "these boards" love Laura Osnes. In fact, I don't even like Laura Osnes and I was trying to make the point that one shouldn't speak in generalities about "these boards" and I presented my dislike of her as an example of why. As it happens, I dislike her for the very reason this person posited "these boards" don't like Karen. It's a remarkable coincidence!
I'm not saying it's logical, it's just a fact that I dismiss anything I hear the woman who won a contest to be in an unnecessary cheap-o Grease revival that was invented for reality TV is connected to out of hand. I just outright say to myself, oh look, that TV contest winner is in something I will never want to see, NEXT! It doesn't matter if you want to present a list of others with similar backgrounds to make sure my feelings about Laura Osnes are consistent across the board, because it doesn't change my feelings about Laura Osnes specifically. They are just feelings, which don't have to be consistent or logical. I hope that makes things clearer.
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
#33
Posted: 5/27/13 at 4:37pm
What's misogynistic about calling a dog faced bottle blonde a dog faced bottle blonde?
#34
Posted: 5/27/13 at 4:45pm
I really will never understand men on this message board finding all kinds of gross ways to call perfectly attractive women ugly. I'm not sure how it's even relevant half the time it gets brought up.
"Get mad, then get over it." - Colin Powell
#35
Posted: 5/27/13 at 7:35pm
What if hilty had played Karen rather than Ivy? And wasn't Laura Osnes up for the role of Karen?
#36
Posted: 5/27/13 at 7:35pm
Excuse me but YOU are the one changing the subject Kelly!
#37
Posted: 5/27/13 at 7:51pm
Dear FindingNamo tridux.
Hopefully I spelled it correctly the time. :)
It seems that it's not that you don't like Osnes, but that you resent her. All I was suggesting was that if you knew a bit more about her background (about 15 seconds worth of reading) you might resent her less.
Hopefully I spelled it correctly the time. :)
It seems that it's not that you don't like Osnes, but that you resent her. All I was suggesting was that if you knew a bit more about her background (about 15 seconds worth of reading) you might resent her less.
CZJ at opening night party for A Little Night Music, Dec 13, 2009.
#38
Posted: 5/27/13 at 7:58pm
I don't resent Laura Osnes because she was a tv contestant. I dislike her because she was a tv contestant.
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
#39
Posted: 5/27/13 at 8:21pm
Samantha Barks was a TV contestant as well, do you dislike her too?
#40
Posted: 5/27/13 at 8:24pm
I really will never understand men on this message board finding all kinds of gross ways to call perfectly attractive women ugly. I'm not sure how it's even relevant half the time it gets brought up.
It's because many gay men, like many heterosexual men, think they have the right to body police women.
It's because many gay men, like many heterosexual men, think they have the right to body police women.
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#41
Posted: 5/28/13 at 2:53am
Agree fully with Kelly2's and givesmevoices' comments above - it is appalling and disrespectful. I happen to think that Megan Hilty is stunningly gorgeous, but that too is irrelevant - no one exists for the purpose of pleasing others visually, and whether they do so or not is irrelevant.
As to the OP's question, I do not agree that Ivy was a sociopath and Karen was nice. Karen arrived in NYC with a truly obnoxious sense of entitlement. She was quickly cast in a Broadway-bound show fresh off the bus, and when she was not learning her choreography very well, she chastised the *other* chorus people for her own failings, and told them "you should be helping me!". That obnoxiously-entitled attitude is what completely turned me off of Karen's character on a personality level from the beginning.
And in matters of hiring people for a job, I always think that competence matters and should matter the most, and that someone who is amazingly good at the job (Ivy's amazing singing, amazing acting, and in this case looking like the character being portayed) should get it over someone who is decent but nothing special (Karen's okay singing, mediocre acting, and not looking like she could pass for Marilyn even with a wig).
And most of Ivy's difficulties that she had to overcome came from the frustration of watching someone with so much less talent and hard work history get promoted over her undeservedly and having to deal with that frustration, while Karen did not have to deal with any such hardships.
And comparing the two, Karen is not noticeably nicer than Ivy from what I could see. Both of them had the other one fired once each - the worst thing one could to do someone else other than physically attacking them. But since Ivy had more talent, it was more egregious to have her fired than Karen. Both slept with or almost slept with someone the other was dating (Ivy with Dev in S1 and Karen with Derek in S2, but Ivy did that in anger after Karen had her fired, which is a lot more understandable than Karen's not-fully-consumated dalliance with Derek when Derek was with Ivy and Karen herself was with Jimmy).
And when it comes to that, it is a lot worse to fool around with someone when you yourself are in a relationship than when the other person is but you are single. Dev was the evil one in the first case, whereas Karen's being with Jimmy made it bad for her to fool around with Derek.
From the beginning, Ivy was always a caring friend (e.g. to Leslie Odom and Wesley Taylor's characters), whereas Karen was taking advantage of her friends (the "you should be helping me" comment in S1 and the rude attitude to Ana in S2). If the characters were people in real life, I would much rather have Ivy as a friend than Karen, even the way that they were written, with their respective flaws. Ivy's flaws came from having to cope with more challenging situations and not doing so in the most productive ways, whereas Karen's came from her own attitude.
None of this of course says anything about Kat or Megan - Kat may be a perfectly nice person in real life, and I am not expressing any opinion about her personally.
As to the OP's question, I do not agree that Ivy was a sociopath and Karen was nice. Karen arrived in NYC with a truly obnoxious sense of entitlement. She was quickly cast in a Broadway-bound show fresh off the bus, and when she was not learning her choreography very well, she chastised the *other* chorus people for her own failings, and told them "you should be helping me!". That obnoxiously-entitled attitude is what completely turned me off of Karen's character on a personality level from the beginning.
And in matters of hiring people for a job, I always think that competence matters and should matter the most, and that someone who is amazingly good at the job (Ivy's amazing singing, amazing acting, and in this case looking like the character being portayed) should get it over someone who is decent but nothing special (Karen's okay singing, mediocre acting, and not looking like she could pass for Marilyn even with a wig).
And most of Ivy's difficulties that she had to overcome came from the frustration of watching someone with so much less talent and hard work history get promoted over her undeservedly and having to deal with that frustration, while Karen did not have to deal with any such hardships.
And comparing the two, Karen is not noticeably nicer than Ivy from what I could see. Both of them had the other one fired once each - the worst thing one could to do someone else other than physically attacking them. But since Ivy had more talent, it was more egregious to have her fired than Karen. Both slept with or almost slept with someone the other was dating (Ivy with Dev in S1 and Karen with Derek in S2, but Ivy did that in anger after Karen had her fired, which is a lot more understandable than Karen's not-fully-consumated dalliance with Derek when Derek was with Ivy and Karen herself was with Jimmy).
And when it comes to that, it is a lot worse to fool around with someone when you yourself are in a relationship than when the other person is but you are single. Dev was the evil one in the first case, whereas Karen's being with Jimmy made it bad for her to fool around with Derek.
From the beginning, Ivy was always a caring friend (e.g. to Leslie Odom and Wesley Taylor's characters), whereas Karen was taking advantage of her friends (the "you should be helping me" comment in S1 and the rude attitude to Ana in S2). If the characters were people in real life, I would much rather have Ivy as a friend than Karen, even the way that they were written, with their respective flaws. Ivy's flaws came from having to cope with more challenging situations and not doing so in the most productive ways, whereas Karen's came from her own attitude.
None of this of course says anything about Kat or Megan - Kat may be a perfectly nice person in real life, and I am not expressing any opinion about her personally.
#42
Posted: 5/28/13 at 6:03am
From day one, the show was always attempting to paint Ivy as the villain we were supposed to hate. Okay... so why give us reasons to understand why she is not the best person? Why show us that she is a talented person living in the shadow of her superstar mother that never showed her love through her whole life? Why show us the man that she's in love with doesn't think she's special? Why show us the only people that want to sleep with her are the ones that can't get into Karen's bed? Why show us that no matter how talented she is or hard she works, no one thinks she's better then a chorus girl? AND why show us her regretting the mistakes she has made? Why show her attempting to make up for her actions and the things she has said?
WHY give us so many reasons to feel sorry for her as well as make her an interesting person that is ACTUALLY the underdog if you think about it, if you want us to hate her?
Meanwhile, you have Karen that is putting in half the effort and getting twice the rewards and attention. She REALLY just got everything she wanted. That's boring. Karen was boring. There was no real depth or back story to her. She just shows up and everyone loves her. Same thing week after week? Yawn.
There were MANY places the writers/runners of this show went wrong. To me, this was one of the biggest. The person they wanted us to hate was the one a lot of us came to love and visa versa. And it wasn't just with these two character. They could never seem to make up their mind if they wanted us to love or hate pretty much EVERY character on the show. They split their fans into too many teams rather than being CLEAR and giving us one person to all collectively cheer and one to hate.
If they wanted us to hate Ivy, she should have been written like Daisy, never showing her regretting her actions and just basking in her wickedness all the time.
If they wanted us all to love Karen, she should have been the one with the meaty back-story and having to actually work hard for her pay off.
WHY give us so many reasons to feel sorry for her as well as make her an interesting person that is ACTUALLY the underdog if you think about it, if you want us to hate her?
Meanwhile, you have Karen that is putting in half the effort and getting twice the rewards and attention. She REALLY just got everything she wanted. That's boring. Karen was boring. There was no real depth or back story to her. She just shows up and everyone loves her. Same thing week after week? Yawn.
There were MANY places the writers/runners of this show went wrong. To me, this was one of the biggest. The person they wanted us to hate was the one a lot of us came to love and visa versa. And it wasn't just with these two character. They could never seem to make up their mind if they wanted us to love or hate pretty much EVERY character on the show. They split their fans into too many teams rather than being CLEAR and giving us one person to all collectively cheer and one to hate.
If they wanted us to hate Ivy, she should have been written like Daisy, never showing her regretting her actions and just basking in her wickedness all the time.
If they wanted us all to love Karen, she should have been the one with the meaty back-story and having to actually work hard for her pay off.
#43
Posted: 5/28/13 at 8:50am
I think Ellis and Jerry were the villains from day one, were they not?
Twitter @NamoInExile
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#44
Posted: 5/28/13 at 9:55am
"From day one, the show was always attempting to paint Ivy as the villain we were supposed to hate."
The same could be said for Derek, and I don't think anyone hates him. Bottom line is that it all comes down to the acting, if another actress were playing Karen she would be favored by the majority, although I think I would still be in Ivy's team for the reasons I stated in one of my previous posts.
I also think the producers of the show wanted you to pick sides, kind of like an Edward vs Jacob thing.
The same could be said for Derek, and I don't think anyone hates him. Bottom line is that it all comes down to the acting, if another actress were playing Karen she would be favored by the majority, although I think I would still be in Ivy's team for the reasons I stated in one of my previous posts.
I also think the producers of the show wanted you to pick sides, kind of like an Edward vs Jacob thing.
#45
Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:07am
I personally don't feel we were supposed to choose cheering one or the other and it being a done deal. We all fall in love with different characters on tv for our own reasons alone. Nobody should tell us who we should like or hate. I guess our feelings come from our own experiences and morals.
"I don't want the pretty lights to come and get me."-Homecoming 2005
"You can't pray away the gay."-Callie Torres on Grey's Anatomy.
Ignored Users: suestorm, N2N Nate., Owen22, master bates
#46
Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:16am
Well, when you have a show about two women competing for the same role, picking a side is inevitable for most people.
Just look at the YouTube comments for any SMASH video.
Just look at the YouTube comments for any SMASH video.
#47
Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:27am
Of course. But, I don't think it was set in stone that we were supposed to like Karen and hate Ivy or the other way around. Just like there are probably people out there who liked Jimmy, who I thought was a complete idiot.
"I don't want the pretty lights to come and get me."-Homecoming 2005
"You can't pray away the gay."-Callie Torres on Grey's Anatomy.
Ignored Users: suestorm, N2N Nate., Owen22, master bates
#48
Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:38am
First off, this isn't just a BroadwayWorld opinion. I read a lot of non-Broadway Smash commentary and the consensus generally was Team Ivy. Television Without Pity and AV Club are two examples.
Second... I'm going to list my thoughts on this in bullet points.
- Kat McPhee cannot portray sweet and innocent. She always came across bitchy even when Karen was supposed to be acting genuinely nice. She also didn't make Karen come to life whatsoever. She looked like a robot or like she was drugged constantly. She didn't even use inflection half of the time.
- The audience resented being told that Karen is so amazing and Ivy is so terrible. Whenever you try to tell and not show an audience things, it generally misfires. Audiences do not like being told what to think. Especially because a lot of the evidence that we saw was not convincing.
- Kat McPhee cannot sing Broadway songs. She has a pop voice and she sings things in a pop way. If they'd had her out to become a pop star, that would have been much better.
- As others have said, a lot of Karen's actions did not strike us as nice and sweet.
- I HATED the use of sex to make Ivy "bad" and Karen "good." Ivy is bad because she had sex with Derek (gasp). Karen is good because she didn't. How gross and misogynistic is that?
- I agree with allthatjazz in that I think Karen's character could have worked with a different actress (Laura Osnes would have owned that role). However, the writing for the character was also terrible. Karen was a Mary Sue in the sense that we were supposed to find her flawless aside from her naivety and inexperience, which are typical Mary Sue flaws-that-aren't-really-flaws.
- Megan Hilty comes across as so likeable and down-to-earth that it's hard not to like Ivy. Especially when she's up against Karen, who like I said constantly comes across as bitchy and drugged at the same time.
- As others have said, Karen is not at all believable as Marilyn Monroe. Ivy is. Karen in Hit List was slightly better because it was more poppish, but Jeremy Jordan still ran circles around her in every song.
Derek is an excellent example. His character was poorly-written, inconsistent, and acted like an absolute asshole 98% of the time. But we still liked him because Jack Davenport put in a hell of a performance.
Second... I'm going to list my thoughts on this in bullet points.
- Kat McPhee cannot portray sweet and innocent. She always came across bitchy even when Karen was supposed to be acting genuinely nice. She also didn't make Karen come to life whatsoever. She looked like a robot or like she was drugged constantly. She didn't even use inflection half of the time.
- The audience resented being told that Karen is so amazing and Ivy is so terrible. Whenever you try to tell and not show an audience things, it generally misfires. Audiences do not like being told what to think. Especially because a lot of the evidence that we saw was not convincing.
- Kat McPhee cannot sing Broadway songs. She has a pop voice and she sings things in a pop way. If they'd had her out to become a pop star, that would have been much better.
- As others have said, a lot of Karen's actions did not strike us as nice and sweet.
- I HATED the use of sex to make Ivy "bad" and Karen "good." Ivy is bad because she had sex with Derek (gasp). Karen is good because she didn't. How gross and misogynistic is that?
- I agree with allthatjazz in that I think Karen's character could have worked with a different actress (Laura Osnes would have owned that role). However, the writing for the character was also terrible. Karen was a Mary Sue in the sense that we were supposed to find her flawless aside from her naivety and inexperience, which are typical Mary Sue flaws-that-aren't-really-flaws.
- Megan Hilty comes across as so likeable and down-to-earth that it's hard not to like Ivy. Especially when she's up against Karen, who like I said constantly comes across as bitchy and drugged at the same time.
- As others have said, Karen is not at all believable as Marilyn Monroe. Ivy is. Karen in Hit List was slightly better because it was more poppish, but Jeremy Jordan still ran circles around her in every song.
Derek is an excellent example. His character was poorly-written, inconsistent, and acted like an absolute asshole 98% of the time. But we still liked him because Jack Davenport put in a hell of a performance.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 5/28/13 at 10:38 AM
#49
Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:42am
I think Smash wanted us to like Ivy and Karen from the start. I didn't hate either one of them. I, personally, just thought that Ivy was much better suited for the role from the start. I found the Ivy or Karen stuff disingenuous because of it and that's what the show focused on the first season. I didn't care by the time the second season rolled around and they actually tried to create a rivalry that made more sense--two competing shows led by two rival actresses. That I bought more than the Bombshell casting drama.
#50
Posted: 5/28/13 at 10:47am
The writers wanted the viewers to be partial to Karen. That was the crux of the show. We were supposed to root for her just as we were supposed to root for Jimmy's redemption.
Where they failed is that Karen (as portrayed by McPhee) is not a "star". Every time she sang, the camera would pan the audience who were all but drooling over her, and everyone would call her "brilliant" and a "star". The performance being given did not warrant that kind of praise. Also playing into it was the fact that Karen was handed everything on a silver platter. She didn't have to work for anything. She didn't know what "green," "upstage" or "downstage" meant, yet she's ended up in the lead role for a Broadway bound show without a single credit to her name?
Ivy had a history of fighting. She spent years auditioning and begging to be noticed. She had the experience, the drive, and the talent. It made her much easier to root for.
Where they failed is that Karen (as portrayed by McPhee) is not a "star". Every time she sang, the camera would pan the audience who were all but drooling over her, and everyone would call her "brilliant" and a "star". The performance being given did not warrant that kind of praise. Also playing into it was the fact that Karen was handed everything on a silver platter. She didn't have to work for anything. She didn't know what "green," "upstage" or "downstage" meant, yet she's ended up in the lead role for a Broadway bound show without a single credit to her name?
Ivy had a history of fighting. She spent years auditioning and begging to be noticed. She had the experience, the drive, and the talent. It made her much easier to root for.
"I shall stay until the wind changes."
Updated On: 5/28/13 at 10:47 AM
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