In defense of Tootsie- Page 2

[Owen22]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 4:43am

chrishuyen said: "I don't want to derail the thread too much, but out of curiosity how many people who thought the score was weak have listened to it since seeing the show? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that the music was the weakest part of the show when I saw it (and it's rare that the book of a musical shines so much), but listening to the cast recording after it came out a few months later I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the songs a second time around. I'm not quite saying it's the score of the century or anything, but I did find a lot more nuance in it outside of seeing it, though I'm not familiar with David Yazbek outside of Band's visit so I'm not sure how it compares to his other work.

Tootsie was definitely a highlight for me this past season, but I also think a huge failing of it is the ending, where it's left rather open-ended and doesn't quite give a sense of closure. And I believe someone mentioned it in a different thread, but having the reveal take place during the Tony Awards would have upped the ante quite a bit."

 

A Broadway score is likely to always sound better the second time you hear it which can only explain why I just saw Amelie again in England and enjoyed the score way more than I did when I saw in New York...

[magictodo123]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 8:28am

Updated On: 10/24/19 at 08:28 AM

[magictodo123]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 8:33am

Updated On: 10/24/19 at 08:33 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 10:26am

Yes, I loved Tootsie so much, deeply funny, very creative. But, it was the one Cast recording in the past year I did not immediately download after getting home from the show. Then, I thought more about it, and decided to get it a few weeks ago. The more and more I listen to it, the more enjoyable and memorable it is. 

This is a phenomenon that occurs with virtually every Yazbek score going back to The Full Monty.  I remember the moaning and griping about the Women on the Verge score being bland and forgettable.  Then the cast recording was released and suddenly, there was a massive 180 in opinions on the score, which transformed into a swell of support.  For some reason, Yazbek's style has always grabbed me from the start, including my first viewing of Full Monty with the original cast before the recording was released.  Personally, I think his weakest score to date is Scoundrels, but I still find it stronger than the majority of new scores introduced on Broadway since then.  After my first viewing of Tootsie, I was begging for a cast recording so I could dance the pony around my living room with I'm Alive playing on a loop.  And I had the melodies of What's Gonna Happen, I Won't Let You Down and Unstoppable stuck in my head for weeks.

To each their own, I suppose.  From shows I've seen or cast recordings I've heard multiple times, I can never seem to recall any tunes from The Producers, Sweet Smell of Success, Taboo, The Color Purple, The Wedding Singer, Grey Gardens, Passing Strange, Shrek, The Addams Family, The Scottsboro Boys, Bridges of Madison County, If/Then, Big Fish, A Christmas Story, School of Rock, Waitress, Dear Evan Hansen or Hadestown, all Tony nominated and/or winning scores.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jarethan]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 10:37am

Owen22 said: "chrishuyen said: "I don't want to derail the thread too much, but out of curiosity how many people who thought the score was weak have listened to it since seeing the show? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that the music was the weakest part of the show when I saw it (and it's rare that the book of a musical shines so much), but listening to the cast recording after it came out a few months later I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the songs a second time around. I'm not quite saying it's the score of the century or anything, but I did find a lot more nuance in it outside of seeing it, though I'm not familiar with David Yazbek outside of Band's visit so I'm not sure how it compares to his other work.

Tootsie was definitely a highlight for me this past season, but I also think a huge failing of it is the ending, where it's left rather open-ended and doesn't quite give a sense of closure. And I believe someone mentioned it in a different thread, but having the reveal take place during the Tony Awards would have upped the ante quite a bit."



A Broadway score is likely to always sound better the second time you hear it which can only explain why I just saw Amelie again in England and enjoyed the score way more than I did when I sawin New York..."


I am curious if you thought it was weak, serviceable or bad the first time.  I thought it was bad.

i do agree with your Point that repeated listenings can make a difference.  There was a time (from Company on) where I did not see a Sondheim show until the cast recording was released and I had some familiarity with it.  Even that can backfire...I loved the recording of Fun Home and really disliked the show...of course it didn’t help that I saw it at CITS and felt I was always looking at the backs of heads, more than usual in that theatre.

[ModernMillie3]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 3:09pm

Sometimes you just have to learn to ignore a musical if an aspect of it (casting, plot, etc) bothers you. People are now very much against the West Side Story revival--and it hasn't even been seen by an audience. Their opinions are solely based on rumors. It's kind of pathetic. If you don't like a show, don't say anything. Just focus on the ones that make you happy.

There is a big reason people are completely against West Side Story, and it's not a rumor, in any sense. Do your homework, look on socials, look at almost every comment because that is the reason the comments were turned off on their IG page. I will say what I like, whenever I like, if I don't like a show. Just like anyone else can. It's called having an opinion. Stop telling others what to focus on, or what people are against. Ugh. 

 

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 3:50pm

magictodo123 said: "While I did cringe a little during their Tony Awards performance (not so much a fan of the music) telling people what shows they can and can't like is just going way too far. People being afraid to post that they liked it, or saw it, because people will come out of the woodwork to do everything they can to shame that person, and make them feel awful for seeing the show. It has to stop."

We know that a few people hurt your feelings on Twitter. You make every effort to bring it up (or, in this case, allude to it) whenever Tootsie is mentioned on these boards. You don't have to keep reminding us of it. 

Updated On: 10/23/19 at 03:50 PM

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 4:22pm

Hoffman was unattractive, Santino is pretty[ish], Borle would be brilliant-funny and unattractive[in drag].

[magictodo123]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 5:20pm

Updated On: 10/24/19 at 05:20 PM

[JSquared2]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 5:21pm

magictodo123 said: "And ignoring the fact that people make me feel like garbage every time, when you're not so innocent yourself....what is going on with WSS or where can I find out what's happening?"

Please stop playing the victim card.  It's become very tiresome.

P.S.  There are multiple threads about West Side Story.  Try starting there...?

 

[ModernMillie3]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 5:26pm

I get that being 12 is super hard, but your weird "I can complain about people attacking me on Twitter but, like, you can't say anything negative about a show, and leave me alone!"

No, sweetie. Be better or leave. Simple. And yes, the victim card (which you never earned) is becoming very tiresome. 

[ModernMillie3]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 5:31pm

BroadwayRox3588 said: "magictodo123 said: "While I did cringe a little during their Tony Awards performance (not so much a fan of the music) telling people what shows they can and can't like is just going way too far. People being afraid to post that they liked it, or saw it, because people will come out of the woodwork to do everything they can to shame that person, and make them feel awful for seeing the show. It has to stop."

We know that a few people hurt your feelings on Twitter. You make every effort to bring it up (or, in this case, allude to it) whenever Tootsie is mentioned on these boards. You don't have to keep reminding us of it."

Literally everyone:

[Mike Barrett]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 6:32pm

ModernMillie3 said: "BroadwayRox3588 said: "magictodo123 said: "While I did cringe a little during their Tony Awards performance (not so much a fan of the music) telling people what shows they can and can't like is just going way too far. People being afraid to post that they liked it, or saw it, because people will come out of the woodwork to do everything they can to shame that person, and make them feel awful for seeing the show. It has to stop."

We know that a few people hurt your feelings on Twitter. You make every effort to bring it up (or, in this case, allude to it) wheneverTootsieis mentioned on these boards. You don't have to keep reminding us of it."

Literally everyone:

"

Seriously. Every single thread this poster brings up the same topics and continues to get the same response and continues to fight and play the victim card. Rinse and repeat. As I’ve said before, I wish the mods would do something about this clear troll. Oops, I bet it’s another “attack”!!! I better dare stop!!! Same poster who will tell you to stop attacking and harassing them and they then PM you hours later saying the same thing. God I’m beyond SICK of you playing the victim card in every thread you get the chance to bring up this Tootsie drama. Take your own advice and ignore it. 

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 6:41pm

Jarethan said: "I am curious if you thought it was weak, serviceable or bad the first time. I thought it was bad.

i do agree with your Point that repeated listenings can make a difference. There was a time (from Company on) where I did not see a Sondheim show until the cast recording was released and I had some familiarity with it. Even that can backfire...I loved the recording of Fun Home and really disliked the show...of course it didn’t help that I saw it at CITS and felt I was always looking at the backs of heads, more than usual in that theatre."

I did mostly find it serviceable rather than bad.  It did seem to be mostly comprised of tuneless speak-singing songs, which I'm not always a fan of (I described it as a pale imitation of Sondheim).  Though it's funny because I have friends that live in Boston and listened to it without seeing the show, and they loved the album.  I do think maybe the bland direction detracts from the scenes with the songs, but imo between There Was John, What's Gonna Happen, and I Like What She's Doing, I feel like the score really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

 

[Mike Barrett]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 7:18pm

My above post may have been a tad harsh, but some of it needed to be said.



Besides that point, I found this score more than serviceable. You want to entertain an audience, that sure happened at my show. Everyone left happy, smiling, talkative at intermission, all signs of a success imo. I’m excited to see this on tour whenever it begins, the comedy was pretty top notch here. Perfect show to enjoy after a few glasses of Pinot!

[Scarlet Leigh]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 10:12pm

It's a to each their own thing because I had the pretty much opposite reaction/experience as you. The house was packed and everyone around me was just dying with laughter and I was just sitting there the whole show, lightly chuckling from time to time and confused. Why was everyone else laughing to hard? It... it was funny but not THAT funny. It was good but not THAT good. The performances were good but not THAT good. I felt like I was just missing something the whole darn show.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 10:16pm

I think Santino won in a weak year for male leads. I don’t understand why they made the character sing in this falsetto when everyone keeps saying she’s a “blowhard.” I wanted the character to be more LuPone less Peters.

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 10/23/19 at 11:24pm

Mike Barrett said: "My above post may have been a tad harsh, but some of it needed to be said."

Sometimes harsh is necessary, and this is one of those times. You said what was needed. 

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 2:29am

I saw 5 musicals (Hadestown, Moulin Rouge!, Little Shop of Horrors, Oklahoma!, and Tootsie) plus 3 plays on my recent trip. This week I’ve been listening to the cast recordings from all the musicals (except Little Shop which doesn’t have a new cast recording). I have to say I like or love them all, but Tootsie’s will probably be the one I listen to the least. Unlike others, I didn’t hate it when a song started in the theatre and I wasn’t waiting impatiently for the songs to end during the show. The OBCR also evoked my very good night at the theatre when I saw Tootsie. But it probably won’t lend itself to multiple repeat listens like the others. Mostly I suppose because the other three OBCRs have many moments that one can relate to inside/outside the show. Whereas, Tootsie’s songs are very show specific (as they obviously should be), but since I can’t necessarily overly relate to the arcs of any of the characters, it’s not as rich of an emotional listen. Even Little Shop has moments one can personally relate to. I don’t know if any of that makes sense. Maybe what I’m saying is the other shows’ scores get into the psyches of the characters in a way that I can relate to them while Tootsie’s score mainly exists to move along the plot (no mean feat; some musicals have entire scores that barely move along the plot at all), but never goes deeper than skin deep. Who knows? Maybe time will lead me to a different conclusion. I still don’t think it’s a bad score. It definitely did (for me, at least) what I needed it to do when I was sitting in the theatre. I did get hints of The Band’s Visit score during “Who Are You?”.There were also a couple of songs (Jeff Sums It Up, Arrivederci!) that slightly evoked (at least for me) The Beatles’ Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Band. Any one else catch that? Not whole songs. Just sections.

[Moderator]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 9:29am

We have deleted a number of posts in this thread that were a back-and-forth argument between two posters about their particular posting behavior, and not about the topic at hand. While we think that a certain level of meta discussion about how these topics is good and healthy, it exceeded hat over night and this morning. 

We are leaving the thread open for now, but if this type of thing pops up again, we will delete that and lock the thread. 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 9:31am

Miles2Go2 said: "I saw 5 musicals (Hadestown, Moulin Rouge!, Little Shop of Horrors, Oklahoma!, and Tootsie) plus 3 plays on my recent trip. This week I’ve been listening to the cast recordings from all the musicals (except Little Shop which doesn’t have a new cast recording). I have to say I like or love them all, but Tootsie’s will probably be the one I listen to the least. Unlike others, I didn’t hate it when a song started in the theatre and I wasn’t waiting impatiently for the songs to end during the show. The OBCR also evoked my very good night at the theatre when I saw Tootsie. But it probably won’t lend itself to multiple repeat listens like the others. Mostly I suppose because the other three OBCRs have many moments that one can relate to inside/outside the show. Whereas, Tootsie’s songs are very show specific (as they obviously should be), but since I can’t necessarily overly relate to the arcs of any of the characters, it’s not as rich of an emotional listen. Even Little Shop has moments one can personally relate to. I don’t know if any of that makes sense. Maybe what I’m saying is the other shows’ scores get into the psyches of the characters in a way that I can relate to them while Tootsie’s score mainly exists to move along the plot (no mean feat; some musicals have entire scores that barely move along the plot at all), but never goes deeper than skin deep. Who knows? Maybe time will lead me to a different conclusion. I still don’t think it’s a bad score. It definitely did (for me, at least) what I needed it to do when I was sitting in the theatre. I did get hints of The Band’s Visit score during “Who Are You?”.There were also a couple of songs (Jeff Sums It Up, Arrivederci!) that slightly evoked (at least for me) The Beatles’ Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Band. Any one else catch that? Not whole songs. Just sections."

I think if you're listening to those cast recordings, Tootsie would probably fall to the bottom of the list of ones that you would prioritize listening to. But that's just me. I haven't seen Moulin Rouge! so I can't judge that one. 

[ArtMan]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 9:36am

Moderator said: "We have deleted a number of posts in this thread that were a back-and-forth argument between two posters about their particular posting behavior, and not about the topic at hand. While we think that a certain level of meta discussion about how these topics is good and healthy, it exceeded hat over night and this morning.

We are leaving the thread open for now, but if this type of thing pops up again, we will delete that and lock the thread."

Yet, you allow the mean spirited posts to remain.

[magictodo123]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 9:47am

ArtMan said: "Moderator said: "We have deleted a number of posts in this thread that were a back-and-forth argument between two posters about their particular posting behavior, and not about the topic at hand. While we think that a certain level of meta discussion about how these topics is good and healthy, it exceeded hat over night and this morning.

We are leaving the thread open for now, but if this type of thing pops up again, we will delete that and lock the thread."

Yet, you allow the mean spirited posts to remain."

...Was this about mine because I made a conscious effort to delete my comments...

[ArtMan]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 9:56am

No, posts that have been mean to you.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 10/24/19 at 9:45pm

''I think Santino won in a weak year for male leads.''

I actually thought it was a strong year.

And had I been a Tony voter, I would've voted for Alex Brightman (''Beetlejuice'' ), who blew me away with his energetic and delightfully crazy performance. I also thought Damon Daunno (''Oklahoma!'' ) and Reeve Carney (''Hadestown'' ), who wasn't even nominated, both were Tony-worthier than the performer who won.

To me, LAST year was weak for male leads. The Tonys could nominate only 4 of them, and the winner, Tony Shalhoub, whom I normally love, barely even sang in ''The Band's Visit.'' In fact, Shalhoub sang so little that he didn't even qualify as a principal soloist, so he didn't share in the cast album's Grammy win.

Updated On: 10/24/19 at 09:45 PM