Jungle Book DRAMA!- Page 4

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:52pm

For its time, it does. A film made in white Hollywood by a bunch of white men portraying the black characters as the sympathetic good guys?

The thing that upsets most people about SotS is that the image on screen is a lie. It is someone's concept of how they wanted reality to be. That representation onscreen implied a general falsehood that many viewers wanted to see because it was entertaining.

Similar to the issue with Zimmerman, it's a form of "whitewashing" the truth to make it palatable for others who did not experience the reality.

[Playbilly]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:52pm

Back to the original point of the article. I bet Disney will (ahem) whitewash the "controversial" parts of Zimmerman's presentation long before it gets to Broadway. They aren't going to invest a lot of money in a show that has a racist stink to it before coming to New York. Who's to say Zimmerman will stay with the project.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:54pm

How involved is Disney anyway? Nobody is calling it pre-Broadway or anything.

[TalkinLoud]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 4:56pm

Yero, I think there's something accurate about saying you should judge a piece of pop culture of its time. But this new musical is a product of OUR time. The author of the article has many salient points that anyone who has any knowledge of racial theory would recognize as pretty standard complaints about Orientalism.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 5:00pm

Yero, I think there's something accurate about saying you should judge a piece of pop culture of its time. But this new musical is a product of OUR time.

You are absolutely correct, and it should (and will) be judged as such. I was only responding to the criticism of the original film that arose in the thread because it is a personal pet peeve of mine. I do not know enough about the new production to defend it (or not, as the case may be).

Posted: 6/12/13 at 6:40pm

Was Mulan racist? The Huns sure came off as awful, didn't they? And it's- what'd he call it?- a tapestry of Asian images and cliches! And the feudal system got a total pass, didn't it? And what about that horrible stereotype of Lilo & Stitch? The airheaded Hawaiian Hottie who can't hold a job and doesn't even recognize an alien when her kid sister brings one home!

I think in order to avoid this racism, we need to stick to all white films. So much better for everyone!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 6:56pm

I've never seen any of the films you are mentioning in your glib dismissal (the old no criticism of one thing "counts" unless the person criticizing has raised concerns about every single other thing that deserves criticism gambit) HOWEVER, I *do* know they are from the era in which Disney realized a more inclusive vision that tries to avoid falling into the same old traps of their past. And that's a good thing.

What's odd to me, getting back to the topic and not your attempts to dispatch it, is that I would expect a contemporary adaptation of Kipling and the Disney cartoon to be able to deal with the problematic aspects in an enlightening way. Zimmeman's (and JoeKv's) off-hand dismissal of the very idea just seems surprising to me. I hope if I see the show I will see that some thought went into it and not just pretending these issues don't exist.

Posted: 6/12/13 at 7:21pm

See Namo that's where we differ- I think in the case of Jungle Book the issue DOESN'T EXIST. That's why I dismiss it. King Louie isn't a racist Black-man-is-Monkey diatribe. (And YES, DISNEY HAS MADE MOVIES WITH HORRIBLE RACIST STEREOTYPES! Better?) I think it's ridiculous to fret about the characters racism when it wasn't racist. King Louie was a monkey character voiced by an Italian-American.

Now, Louie will be played by a black actor. Not sure if folks are going to think that's better or worse but, hey, we've seen either way, people are going to be pissed.

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 7:22pm

As a person of South Asian descent, I'm a bit confounded by this piece. Reading that last paragraph, I can't help but think Khoury's critique is colored by his own experience coming from a family of Syrian descent. I am very sympathetic and share a lot of his pain but, while there are parallels between both instances of imperialist abuse, I can't help but feel his indignation is misplaced and not particularly relevant to the British exploitation of South Asia. As a result, the only points that I feel Khoury has much traction are Zimmerman's callous attitude toward racism in general and the character of King Louis.

Indians actually tend towards a great deal of pride in their country and culture and, for the most part, HAVE moved beyond the British raj. In fact, many cultural critics within India would describe this pride as borderline hubris that often handicaps the nation, and prevents Indians from adequately admitting the many human rights issues still to be addressed: the endemic government and police corruption, the religious conflict, the classism and racism that is prevalent there as relics of the (now abolished, but in many regions only in a de jure sense) caste system, the widespread mysogyny that often manifests as violence and disenfranchisement. This is changing, thankfully.

Britain does have a different breed of racism in existence today, however; stemming in large part from the uneasy relationship between Western secularism and the influx of Islamic immigrants into Western Europe. Reactionary Islam and the incipient Islamophobia and Neo-Nazism is a huge problem in much of Europe today, the likes of which we Americans could never fathom. These extremists on both sides constitute less than 5% of the general population in most Western countries, but they are a very loud and very dangerous contingent. Unlike in the U.S., Europe doesn't really have a very open race dialogue. It's simply not talked about, but allowed to fester unaddressed until it errupts at football matches or skinhead rallies. America gets a bad rap for its race relations, but it really is nothing compared to what I have seen in Europe.

So would a production of Disney's Jungle Book that is "a critique of Kipling’s terrible politics" be particularly salient or enlightening? When we have violent racism in existence around the world today, what victory is won by skewering the politics of a man who died almost a century ago? If you read Victorian accounts of India, they display attitudes that are quite foreign to modern-day Indians and Brits alike. Racism still exists, certainly. But the level of indignation in Khoury's essay is really confounding to me. People are being MURDERED today around the contemporary race and religious dialectic, and I'm supposed to be up in arms about some theatre director who appropriates my people's cultural aesthetics for a musical?

With a few exceptions of ignorant provincialism, I usually actually find it more flattering when Westerners are taken with the art, food, music, and religion of my culture than offended. They're usually very earnest and no more offensive than American anime fans or Anglophiles. I'm actually more offended when Asian culture is outright ignored and Asian actors are marginalized, which is not the case at all with this production, which has a substantial South Asian cast and South Asian musicians.

Updated On: 6/12/13 at 07:22 PM

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 7:57pm

Really appreciate reading your take, Mike. As a white guy, it often seems presumptuous of me to declare from the outside looking in what blacks or South Asians or any other group should deem racist behavior. Thanks for putting in your take from the inside looking out.

Updated On: 6/12/13 at 07:57 PM

[mpd4165]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 7:59pm

Zimmerman has a response/apology.
A Note from Mary Zimmerman

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 8:16pm

It seems like she gets it, which is what I expected from her.

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 8:26pm

Glad to share, Someone in a Tree2. :)

I should note that I don't mean to speak for everyone of South Asian descent. There may be some who feel the same way as Khoury does. But I don't think Zimmerman is particularly guilty of Orientalism, a term which only has negative connotations in a very specific sense -- that is, when Westerners would reduce Asian culture to stereotyped and regressive "otherness" (the concept of "essentialism" that Said used in the book Khoury mentions). That is not what I see Zimmerman doing with this production. I didn't see the other piece Khoury mentions (The Mirror of the Invisible). Gor all I know, that might have been as offensive as Khoury implies it was. But I think Zimmerman's apology linked above is genuine and accurately reflects her intentions in approahcing this material.

Updated On: 6/12/13 at 08:26 PM

[perfectlymarvelous]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:16pm

Something that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread at all is the fact that most, if not all, mainstream entertainment contains some problematic elements. You can watch and even enjoy those things, and it doesn't make you a bad person. However, the problem comes when people are unwilling to discuss those things when they are brought up. Many people in this thread have been pretty dismissive of the idea that someone could find characters in Disney films racist or stereotypical, and that's where the bulls&%t hits the fan, to be honest.

Also, just because something is "from a different time" doesn't make it not racist. If that is indeed the "way people thought," then, well...they were buying into racial stereotypes that were perpetuated by (at the time) the law and the media, and whether we want to admit it or not, echoes of those things exist today. Instead of turning a blind eye to this stuff, we need to be critical of what we watch (both things from the present and things from the past), because discussing and evaluating these kinds of things is really the only way we're ever going to improve.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:29pm

I've been avoiding this thread, but I was happy to come back to what you just said, perfectlymarvelous.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:37pm

Man, here I thought I was gonna see a mongoose attack a cobra or something and all I got was This Week In PC Vapors.

[jwsel]

Posted: 6/12/13 at 11:55pm

If King Louie is not in the books, why did Disney design a character and scene with racial overtones if they were so sensitized after Dumbo? There are plenty of other animals they could have chosen as well as other musical styles.


To answer this, as someone said, the book does have Mowgli captured by monkeys, which is the basis for the scene with King Louis. The idea of having him do a jazz number apparently came from the idea of him being "King of the Swingers" (as in swinging monkeys).

I've linked to a video on YouTube that describes the selection of Louis Prima once they decided to create the King Louis character and how they incorporated aspects of his performance into the scene. In fact, the video cuts between the recording session and the movie to show how some of King Louis' movements are the same as what Prima did while singing.
Louis Prima in Jungle Book

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 12:38am

Also, just because something is "from a different time" doesn't make it not racist.

That's very true, but in the case of Disney movies like The Jungle Book, I believe they choose to serve more as a mirror rather than as a platform for racism. They reflect/incorporate/document current societal beliefs (including tolerance of racist behaviors) rather than preach them. Tazber used the term "time capsule" (I happen to like that a lot).

[Owen22]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 12:46am

Dear Joe:

"Was Mulan racist? The Huns sure came off as awful, didn't they? And it's- what'd he call it?- a tapestry of Asian images and cliches! And the feudal system got a total pass, didn't it? And what about that horrible stereotype of Lilo & Stitch? The airheaded Hawaiian Hottie who can't hold a job and doesn't even recognize an alien when her kid sister brings one home!

I think in order to avoid this racism, we need to stick to all white films. So much better for everyone!"

This comment was stupid, vulgar, reductive and disgusting.

[perfectlymarvelous]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 1:06am

I believe they choose to serve more as a mirror rather than as a platform for racism. They reflect/incorporate/document current societal beliefs (including tolerance of racist behaviors) rather than preach them.

That is valid, but I should have perhaps mentioned that something doesn't have to be what we think of as overtly racist to have undercurrents of racism in it. I think we're pretty much saying the same thing, just in a different way. Pieces of art should absolutely be evaluated in context, but if we're talking about something that was produced during a time period that was a little more okay with overt racism, it shouldn't excuse or explain away the problematic parts of something.

I'm sorry if that makes no sense, it's 1 in the morning and I might be rambling, but I don't disagree with that part of what you said is basically what I'm trying to say here. :)

[blaxx]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 2:00am

What is the point of theatricalizing these films if the focus is going to be on how PC they can get? I just want it to be good.

I can't wait for a gay, albino, Jewish Argentinian to replace Andre DeShields

[finebydesign]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 11:46am

I think that was Zimmerman's point.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 12:04pm

I guess I don't understand why being aware of the past (and present) racial implications of something written in a time when racial implications weren't even considered is PC. Also, I'm not sure why PC is such a bad thing. Also also, it really seems that anti-PC people (or at least people who feel derision for whatever it is they think "PC" is) are the only ones who even use the expression PC.

[finebydesign]

Posted: 6/13/13 at 4:33pm

Interesting discussion about West Side Story in the second half.
Barely Necessary Racism in The Jungle Book

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 6/14/13 at 2:18pm

Mary sat down with them and agreed to answer questions, as well:

http://www.silkroadrising.org/news/mary-responds-my-interview-with-mary-zimmerman