KINKY BOOTS to win the Tony over MATILDA?- Page 11

[newintown]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 10:50am

"If it wins best score, it means that a majority of Tony voters decided that it was the best score."

If you truly believe that, then you haven't met many Tony voters. Some cast their votes based on more criteria than mere aesthetic opinion. Some vote for their friends, some vote for the work that they need to sell, some vote against people they don't like.

The Tony voters aren't a pantheon of objective and wise demi-gods. They're just people with people's agendas.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 10:58am

The thing about this year's awards is that the two big contenders for Best Musical are also competing against a revival that is probably stronger than both of them (despite Miss Brantley's Grumpy Cat take on it). It's a three-way battle- the original shows have the advantage of having their own unique categories that Pippin can't compete in. But there won't be- or SHOULDN'T be- a sweep.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:01am

>> No, it wouldn't. That's a false assertion.

Not based on the reasons I've posted in other threads. Maybe I should have included a reference to that, but I assumed it was implied.

I understand that my reasoning is not "law", but it's on par with the criteria used by "real" Tony voters.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:05am

It's hardly unheard of for nominees to be awarded simply because it is felt they are due or owed.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:14am

>> It's hardly unheard of for nominees to be awarded simply because it is felt they are due or owed.

I agree completely, but would that be the case for Lauper? This is her first Broadway show (as is true for Minchin). Neither has really established a history of paying their dues in this field.

In my mind, I'm considering how successfully each transitioned from their previous work into this new (for them) genre. Lauper's score feels stuck in the pop world. Minchin's does not.

EDIT: I hate to use a sports metaphor, but I can equate this situation to Michael Jordon's, when he transitioned from basketball to baseball. Everybody knows that he was highly regarded in the sports world when he was playing basketball. After retiring from basketball, he made the decision to take up baseball. He was still highly regarded in the sports world, but did not deserve to be acclaimed for his skills in baseball as he was with basketball.

Unlike Jordon, Lauper has a much better future regarding her transition. Updated On: 6/4/13 at 11:14 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:23am

Lauper's score is not stuck anywhere. It's the best score by a pop/rock writer in years, a much better theater score, with better character writing, than any of Elton John scores, for instance.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:33am

>> It's the best score by a pop/rock writer in years, a much better theater score, with better character writing, than any of Elton John scores, for instance.

I would disagree with you regarding character writing, but I'm more interested in not discounting "best score by a pop/rock writer".

I think I would agree with that, but it's the caveat of "by a pop/rock writer" that makes the big difference with me. My first inclination is to replace those words with "by a musical theater writer" and THEN form an opinion.

If I apply that option to both Lauper's score, as well as Minchin's, Minchin comes out ahead for me.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:36am

Funny you mentioned Elton John... I really liked BILLY ELLIOT as a production, mostly for its direction, craft, and amazing performances, and felt the score was a weak link. Lately, though, the last few months, I've found myself strangely going back to that album more and more. I think, maybe, in retrospect that score congealed somewhere in my mind far after the show closed and now I miss it. Weird reaction, that.

Anyways, it'll come as no surprise to John Adams that I'm rooting for Minchin; I find the music vastly more complex and evocative, and like to hope that if the voters are considering the scores solely on their merits, MATILDA should have it in a cakewalk. That said, as Kad and others all rightly point out, awards are rarely ever adjudicated so purely.

[Up In One]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:37am

"In my mind, I'm considering how successfully each transitioned from their previous work into this new (for them) genre. Lauper's score feels stuck in the pop world. Minchin's does not."

What does that mean? The idea is to bring their character to the theater not sanitize them. If anything I would say Minchin is watered down compared to his satiric pianoman work. I was very excited to hear he was the composer but felt not much of his voice came through. But don't mind me I thought Avenue Q was watered down too. If Avenue Q had more of the bite of BOM I would have been satisfied. I like people who make a stake. I hear everyone rhapsodizing about "When I Grow Up", cute, pretty tune, but really? Matilda is so dark why didn't they really go for it? You can serve the material yet provide a point of view. Kinky Boots makes no claims for the Sondheim crown and delivers entertainment with a message or vice versa. Cyndi has succeeded in bringing her voice to Broadway more than any pop writer yet.

Remember Broadway was once the birthplace of popular song, I think its great to see that come full circle.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:48am

>> Cyndi has succeeded in bringing her voice to Broadway more than any pop writer yet.

Is that what writing for musical theater is about? Highlighting the composer rather than the story/characters?

>> Remember Broadway was once the birthplace of popular song, I think its great to see that come full circle.

If you go back to the Tin Pan Alley days, it's the other way 'round. Broadway was used as a medium for broadcasting popular songs.
Updated On: 6/4/13 at 11:48 AM

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 11:52am

Comparing Kinky Boots to The Music Man is like comparing Spam to Chateaubriand. Spam is certainly fine in some situations, but there's undeniably lower quality there.

This metaphor, oddly, really hits how I feel about “Kinky Boots” on the head.

It's the best score by a pop/rock writer in years, a much better theater score, with better character writing, than any of Elton John scores, for instance

While I disagree that it is better character writing than any of Elton John’s scores and the best pop/rock score in years, even if this was true, can it still compete, overall, to “Matilda”’s score? For me the answer is no.

Lyrically and musically, I don’t think “Kinky Boots” can compete with “Matilda.” Not only is the music itself mediocre and repetitive to a fault, but, for me, the lyrics are so generic that they do not provide any character insight or help move the story along. I feel like you could place the majority of “Kinky”’s songs and plop them into another storyline and they would work just fine.

I also feel that the extreme praise Lauper is receiving may be coming out of lower expectations. No one knew how she would do as a musical theatre writer and since she was able to produce a half-way decent score, it is being lauded as something greater than it is (this is my personal opinion, I am definitely not stating this as a fact). I fear she may take home the Best Score award based off of this.

Also, I would like to note, I am a huge fan of pop music and enjoy many pop musical theatre scores, so the style of the music has no weight on my opinion.

[newintown]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 12:18pm

Recent (relatively) "original" scores by slummers from the pop/rock world:

The Lion King - Elton John & Tim Rice (in part)
Aida - Elton John & Tim Rice
Taboo - Boy George (with much help)
Bombay Dreams (sort of) - A.R. Rahman and Don Black
The Color Purple - Allee Willis, Brenda Russell, and Stephen Bray
Lestat - Elton John & Bernie Taupin
Tarzan - Phil Collins
Spring Awakening - Duncan Sheik and Steven Sater
Passing Strange - Stew and Heidi Rodewald
Billy Elliot - Elton John & Lee Hall
9 to 5 - Dolly Parton
Memphis - David Bryan and Joe DiPietro
American Idiot - Green Day
Spider-Man - Bono and The Edge
Once - Glen Hansard and Markéta Irglová
Ghost - Dave Stewart, Glen Ballard and Bruce Joel Rubin (hard to believe this took three people)
Hands On A Hardbody - Trey Anastasio and Amanda Green
Kinky Boots - Cyndi Lauper

Just for everyone to compare; IS Cyndi's Kinky score "the best score by a pop/rock writer?"

[tazber]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 12:22pm

I would say Aida is the best score by a pop/rock artist with Kinky second. That's just my opinion.

Having said that, Matilda's score is far superior to Kinky's.

I think that Matilda has the best score of this season and last season combined.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 12:36pm

Lauper's score is not stuck anywhere. It's the best score by a pop/rock writer in years, a much better theater score, with better character writing, than any of Elton John scores, for instance.

I wish I felt that way, but I find Billy Elliot's score far superior to Kinky Boots.

I think that Matilda has the best score of this season and last season combined.

Agreed.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 1:00pm

I third that, but my opinion is irrelevant in re: the Tony voters (ALL of which are voting for Kinky Boots, apparently). It doesn't throw a bash for the audience but, for me, is more fulfilling, surprising, clever, and lasting.

[ljay889]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 1:04pm

Is Billy Elliot REALLY a pop/rock score? Regardless, that score was dreck, and rightfully lost to the superior next to Normal. Kinky Boots is definitely a better and more exciting score than Billy. Kinky Boots is a bubbly pop/rock score with no apologies.

Updated On: 6/4/13 at 01:04 PM

[GilmoreGirlO2]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 1:08pm

Agreed with those believing "Matilda" has the best score of this and last season combined.

It doesn't throw a bash for the audience but, for me, is more fulfilling, surprising, clever, and lasting.

Excellently put.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 1:19pm

Is Billy Elliot REALLY a pop/rock score?

I don't think anyone claimed it was. PJ mentioned scores by pop/rock writers.

Kinky Boots is definitely a better and more exciting score than Billy.

Definitely...to those whom agree with you, I assume. Kinky Boots is definitely bubbly and unapologetic and written in an entirely different style and purpose than Billy Elliot, though I found Billy Elliot bubbly when it needed to be as well as "unapologetic". Regardless, I'm sure there are those who consider the Next to Normal score "dreck" as well, so each to their own and thus and such et al.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 1:32pm

PJ has said in the past he feels Kinky Boots has the best pop/rock score since Hedwig; the "score by a pop/rock artist" specification was added on by someone else.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 1:41pm

I was referring to PJ's post from above:

It's the best score by a pop/rock writer in years, a much better theater score, with better character writing, than any of Elton John scores, for instance.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 2:07pm

Yes, I think Kinky Boots is a better theater score, with better character writing, than all those on newintown's list, including Passing Strange and Spring Awakening and especially the Elton John scores. (And I am a big fan of Billy Eliot and Once.)

[newintown]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 2:20pm

Perhaps it is... can't say I listen to any of them, except rarely.

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 3:27pm

I'm not a Tony voter or even a regular commenter here, but I've seen both and to me it's a no-brainer. Matilda was so superior to Kinky Boots that I'm honestly scratching my head that this is even a discussion!

I thought Lauper's score was great, though I found myself cringing at how disjointed it was to have classic American pop set in rural England - that disconnect kept taking me out of the mood of the show. I might get the cast recording, though, because I think I'll enjoy it a lot more out of context. (Except that "Everybody Say Yeah" song, which feels to me like the intellectual equivalent of Ke$ha. Shoot me.) Matilda has some skippable dud songs for sure, but to me Tim Minchin's lyrics are so genius that there are a few I've had on repeat for months now and I'm *still* hearing new things in them. I mean, the alphabet school song still blows my mind, that the letters don't just fit the lyrics but also the meter. Incredible. Matilda was rightfully shut out of the sound design category, though. It was a jumbled mess live, which is a real shame.

As far as Best Actor, I liked but didn't love Billy Porter, and I thought that Bertie Carvel's performance was one of the best I've ever seen. Lola was just too annoying for me - I never found myself rooting for her. (Though perhaps that reaction was colored by some less-than-flattering things I've heard about Mr. Porter in real life...)

I guess I left Kinky Boots smiling but feeling a bit empty, and I left Matilda feeling practically enlightened. I'm pretty sure I'll still be thinking about it years from now, and I know I can't say the same thing about KB. Intellectually, it feels like the difference between Home Improvement and 30 Rock. And there’s nothing wrong with the former, I just personally prefer originality to predictability. I can see why some people don’t care for Matilda – it’s not for everyone. It's definitely not as "safe" of a show as KB.

Anyway, I know the Tonys are all politics so I won't be surprised if KB pulls out the win... but to me there's absolutely no question as to which is the superior show. Frankly, I think they both pale in comparison to Pippin, though that’s neither here nor there.

2¢.

[binau]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 4:52pm

I'm glad that the Matilda backlash appears to be recovering and I hope Tony voters feel the same (but maybe it's too late).

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 6/4/13 at 7:09pm

"If KB wins best score this year, I'll be very disappointed. It would mean that Lauper would be awarded for being a well-liked person instead of for writing the best score this season. "

In your opinion. Which, it appears, is the only valid one -- again, in your opinion. Perhaps we should simply dispense with what you deem the flawed democracy of the Tony's, and let you give the awards instead. Apparently, that's the only way to assure their integrity.

Gracious, have all of Matilda's supporters sunk to insulting the Tony voters, or only those on this thread? That strikes me as an over-identification with her narrative of under-appreciated exceptionalism.

Updated On: 6/4/13 at 07:09 PM