Ogie in Waitress (contains Spoilers)

[ChairinMain]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 7:39pm

After listening to and loving the cast album of WAITRESS, I sat down to watch the movie the first time. I was surprised to find the character of Ogie portrayed in the film as something of a creep who Dawn, it is implied, is settling for rather than loves. There is that lovely scene where he spouts spontaneous and genuinely romantic poetry for her, but it comes late in the film and I'm not entirely sure for supposed to find it weird or not.

"Never getting rid of me" is such a fun number but I don't know if it really addresses just how problematic his behavior is, and since I live on the other side of the country, I won't be able to find out in person anytime soon. Christopher Fitzgerald is a genius comedian and I am sure he did something to earn his Tony nomination, so I would ask those of you who have seen it if Ogie comes off more likable in the stage show than he does in the movie?

Updated On: 6/26/16 at 07:39 PM

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 7:51pm

It's a complicated question, but yes, to answer in short, Chris Fitzgerald was hired and got his Tony nomination because he is absolutely brilliant in the role- he makes you forget that what you're listening to is creepy. The song and the lyrics he sings are kind of scary, but he is so loveable, it totally works.

Is it problematic? yes. But Chris makes you forget. 

[pupscotch]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 8:18pm

It does seem that in the show, Dawn genuninely ends up falling for Ogie, which I believe because of Chris's performance. He's singing creepy lyrics, but the way he sings them they sound endearing and cute, rather than a little bit stalkerish, and Dawn falling for him makes a lot more sense.

[@z5]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 8:35pm

When I saw the show at first i thought he was mad weird and a stalker, especially when he showed up at the diner and refused to leave, but I came to like him towards the end of the show, as did Dawn, and her friends.

[ammurp]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 8:57pm

Literally watched the movie last night (and listened to the cast recording after for the first time) and my immediate thought was if this had been discussed on these boards. At first I thought perhaps his character is a foil to Earl...but really that's not the case either. Think I'm going to go hunting the web for some think pieces on the matter. 

[ChairinMain]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 9:43pm

So, in the movie, Ogie essentially appears or is discussed four times:

1. After his date with Dawn, he shows up at the diner, makes a scene, refuses to leave, spouts terrible poetry and rambles on about his personal history (this of course becomes the basis for "Never getting rid of me".) Dawn finally explodes at him and he burst into tears.

2. Dawn reveals that she is now dating him, commenting that he called her upwards of 50 times before she finally said yes. It's indicated in this conversation that she is attempting to talk herself into a relationship with him, especially when she lashes out at Jenna for a perceived slight against him that seems to be a case of "the lady doth protest too much."

3. Jenna witnesses Ogie picking up Dawn for a date shortly after the previous conversation and it's indicated he is going to propose at dinner. He recites a spontaneous poem that is slightly awkward but genuinely heartfelt and loving, and both women seem very touched.

4. Dawn and Ogie get married, and he interrupts the ceremony for another awkward but beautiful poem. (This becomes "I Love you like a table" in the musical)

Do these four scenes Match pretty well with his track in the musical? Does he have any other appearances or are any of the scenes not present? 

Updated On: 6/26/16 at 09:43 PM

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 10:43pm

ChairinMain said: "So, in the movie, Ogie essentially appears or is discussed four times:

1. After his date with Dawn, he shows up at the diner, makes a scene, refuses to leave, spouts terrible poetry and rambles on about his personal history (this of course becomes the basis for "Never getting rid of me".) Dawn finally explodes at him and he burst into tears.

2. Dawn reveals that she is now dating him, commenting that he called her upwards of 50 times before she finally said yes. It's indicated in this conversation that she is attempting to talk herself into a relationship with him, especially when she lashes out at Jenna for a perceived slight against him that seems to be a case of "the lady doth protest too much."

3. Jenna witnesses Ogie picking up Dawn for a date shortly after the previous conversation and it's indicated he is going to propose at dinner. He recites a spontaneous poem that is slightly awkward but genuinely heartfelt and loving, and both women seem very touched.

4. Dawn and Ogie get married, and he interrupts the ceremony for another awkward but beautiful poem. (This becomes "I Love you like a table" in the musical)

Do these four scenes Match pretty well with his track in the musical? Does he have any other appearances or are any of the scenes not present? 

 

"

In my opinion, that's the difficult part of this musical - which I really really like..but you have to sort of put normal morality and sensibilities aside. Lots of infidelity presented as somewhat adorable..which matches the adorableness of Ogie...even though any type of stalker is not adorable. But he is presented to be a good guy - rather than a creep...just ODD but then Dawn is pretty odd too.

The doctor too - obviously having an affair even though his wife is supposed to be this lovely trusting person...and you are kind of rooting for the affair.  You just have to let these things go to enjoy this...

About the scenes above..#1 is pretty much how you describe and includes his number that got him a Tony nod. #2 - not so much. #3 & #4 are in the musical similarly. But then you see Ogie a couple more times - visiting Jenna at the hospital and then at the epilogue/finale as well.

[ChairinMain]

Posted: 6/26/16 at 11:25pm

Basically what I really wanted to know was if that scene of him reciting poetry to Dawn was still on the show, because I feel that that's the most important scene for the character. So It's good to know that's there.

 

I really like that about both the show and the movie. Apart from just how sublimely awful Earl is, there's nothing really black-and-white about the morality of the characters' actions. And thinking about it further, I feel like that's kind of the point with Ogie - he's a foil for the other men in the film, specifically Earl. We are supposed to think that Dawn is getting herself into a bad relationship with a crazy person she is settling for, and she's going to end up as miserable as Jenna. Then the film surprises us by showing a genuine romantic connection develop between these two people.

Now I haven't seen the show, but I have seen rehearsal footage of I love you like a table and have listened to the album a bunch, and I think I've gotten the picture that what sets apart Ogie from the movie from the show. In the movie, Ogie is played by Eddie Jemison, who has made a brilliant career out of a complete lack of charisma (his performance in Oceans 11 actually one of my favorite Nebishes is of all time.) He's immediately offputting in this role, so the scene where he reveals Ogie's True romantic nature is incredibly surprising and effective. Christopher Fitzgerald, on the other hand, being an extremely charismatic and charming actor, and also working in a different medium, doesn't need to have that surprise. Ogie immediately comes off as sweet and romantic, though incredibly misguided, so we root for him more. Does that sound about right?

Updated On: 6/26/16 at 11:25 PM

[broadwayguy91]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 12:17am

In the stage show, Dawn and Ogie also bond over being in many revolutionary War renaactments, and there is also a hilarious scene (on stage) where it is implied that they doing the dirty in American revolution costumes lol. Does that plot thread make any appearance in the movie? (I'm too lazy to rewatch it right now, haha)

[perfectlymarvelous]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 12:26am

I think there was some subtle shifting done with Ogie in the musical - both in the writing and how he's portrayed - to make him less overtly creepy. He is still a genuine weirdo though, and Chris Fitzgerald is charming but his initial interactions with Dawn are cringe-worthy. He definitely doesn't come off as more immediately sweet and romantic; Dawn is clearly uncomfortable with him initially. I think they do a decent enough job of addressing this without making Ogie self-aware enough to acknowledge his own creepiness (which would not make any sense).

I love both the show and the film. Even with Earl who is pretty terrible, there's no judgment leveled at any of these characters; we just see them making choices and dealing with them. Adrienne Shelly dying so young was truly a terrible loss, she had such a unique voice and Waitress is so special. 

[mailhandler777]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 12:26am

pupscotch said: "It does seem that in the show, Dawn genuninely ends up falling for Ogie, which I believe because of Chris's performance. He's singing creepy lyrics, but the way he sings them they sound endearing and cute, rather than a little bit stalkerish, and Dawn falling for him makes a lot more sense."

 

Chris didn't play Ogie at A.R.T. in Cambridge and the same thing happened there as on Broadway. Only thing that changed was I Love You Like A Table there was just Ogie singing it whereas here its their duet and their wedding scene which was a completely different scene at A.R.T.

[ChairinMain]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 1:00am

broadwayguy91 said: "In the stage show, Dawn and Ogie also bond over being in many revolutionary War renaactments, and there is also a hilarious scene (on stage) where it is implied that they doing the dirty in American revolution costumes lol. Does that plot thread make any appearance in the movie? (I'm too lazy to rewatch it right now, haha)"

It does not! that's new, and I love it.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 1:04am

I was cringing in the theater at his big number, which is strangely the most memorable and hummable in the show. It seems really poorly timed to such wide conversations about consent, etc.

[artscallion]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 6:57am

Perhaps they are showing us, through Dawn, how easy it is to fall for a type like this, thus explaining how Jenna ended up with such a jerk. Earl was probably more like Ogie in the beginning of their relationship.

Updated On: 6/27/16 at 06:57 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 7:38am

Earle was never anything like Ogie.  Abusive men never are.   Why? Because they don't think anything is wrong with their behavior. The signs are almost always there. 

[artscallion]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 8:42am

The signs are certainly there with Ogie in the lyrics to the song. But I disagree about abusive men. I've known and seen many, many that start a relationship as charming as pie. It's part of the conflict that traps the woman. The signs are there. But they're subtle. She thinks she's misinterpreting things. The abuse/control slowly increases. She can't reconcile the abuse with the man she thinks she knows and loves. She thinks she must be misinterpreting it. She starts to think she's the crazy one. question themselves and their own part in it, etc. eventually it increases until they feel trapped. For the most part, especially with this kind of crazy-making controlling abuse,  I don't think abusers go in full strength.

[NJ_BroadwayGirl]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 8:45am

There's some discussion on this topic in the various other Waitress threads too. 

I am a fan of the show. I happened to see it at ART on a trip to Boston last summer and remember being very excited about it coming to Broadway but also concerned about Ogie's stalker behavior and the song "Never Getting Rid of Me." All I thought was, wow imagine if big scary Earl said that line? Yikes. Well they kept it in and it's still problematic, but I will say that Chris Fitzgerald has managed to make it less creepy. It might not be right, but it's what it is. And that behavior is in the source material so it's not totally made up. If they were trying to really stick to the story of the movie, they did the best job they could to actually soften it. 

Also, I definitely do not think Earl was ever like Ogie. No. At the end of the day this is a story about regular people, with quirks or bad habits or tough life circumstances just trying to make it through life and maybe find love and friendship. They are flawed, they make bad decisions, but so do all of us. In a show that's a "slice of life" you need (and this has) characters who are sympathetic, sweet, sassy, grumpy, angry ... And you need some who are awkward and wacky. While I clearly don't agree with Ogie's techniques, he's a guy clearly suffering from OCD and a lack of "cool" who is trying to make his way. 

[After Eight]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 8:58am

"I would ask those of you who have seen it if Ogie comes off more likable in the stage show than he does in the movie?"

 

I didn't see the movie, but in the show I found him to be an obnoxious jerk. And I couldn't stand that song.

[PJPan]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 9:07am

Side question (I can't remember) - does anyone remember Ogie's full name?

[After Eight]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 9:46am

"The doctor too - obviously having an affair even though his wife is supposed to be this lovely trusting person...and you are kind of rooting for the affair. "

 

Correct me if my memory is wrong, but when we first saw the doctor beginning  a relationship with the heroine, we didn't know he was married, right? But once that was revealed, and he showed himself to be a deceiver and a crud, why would we be rooting for the affair?

[Broadway Geek2]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 9:56am

After Eight said: ""The doctor too - obviously having an affair even though his wife is supposed to be this lovely trusting person...and you are kind of rooting for the affair. "

 

Correct me if my memory is wrong, but when we first saw the doctor beginning  a relationship with the heroine, we didn't know he was married, right? But once that was revealed, and he showed himself to be a deceiver and a crud, why would we be rooting for the affair?"

My girlfriend spotted his wedding ring right away (from Row G Cent Orch), so I don't think it was much of a secret that the Doctor was married.


 

Updated On: 6/27/16 at 09:56 AM

[dissimilate]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 10:33am

Broadway Geek2 said: "After Eight said: ""The doctor too - obviously having an affair even though his wife is supposed to be this lovely trusting person...and you are kind of rooting for the affair. "

 

Correct me if my memory is wrong, but when we first saw the doctor beginning  a relationship with the heroine, we didn't know he was married, right? But once that was revealed, and he showed himself to be a deceiver and a crud, why would we be rooting for the affair?"

My girlfriend spotted his wedding ring right away (from Row G Cent Orch), so I don't think it was much of a secret that the Doctor was married.
 

"

And when they first have sex, they sing “You have a wife / You have a husband / You’re my doctor / You’ve got a baby coming” so… yes, he’s married.

For Never Ever, I think Chris Fitzgerald sold it better (in terms of toning down the creepy) than Jeremy Morse at the ART. He managed to make it seem like Ogie’s just an overeager, socially awkward boy, who comes across more as "socially inept and unable to read cues" rather than “entitled to a woman’s attention just because he asked”. I still think the lyrics are problematic, though, and I wish they’d reworked them to show Ogie’s pet-the-dog nature a little more.

Updated On: 6/27/16 at 10:33 AM

[mailhandler777]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 10:50am

After Eight said: "Correct me if my memory is wrong, but when we first saw the doctor beginning  a relationship with the heroine, we didn't know he was married, right? But once that was revealed, and he showed himself to be a deceiver and a crud, why would we be rooting for the affair?"

 

He wears a wedding ring and in the scene after Jenna says her new doctor is a man. Becky asks if he's single to which Jenna replied I think he had a ring on. 

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 11:15am

After Eight said: ""The doctor too - obviously having an affair even though his wife is supposed to be this lovely trusting person...and you are kind of rooting for the affair. "

 

Correct me if my memory is wrong, but when we first saw the doctor beginning  a relationship with the heroine, we didn't know he was married, right? But once that was revealed, and he showed himself to be a deceiver and a crud, why would we be rooting for the affair?
 

Yes, as stated above,  we know he is married right from the beginning, when she tells the girls that she has a new doctor..and Jenna comments he was wearing a ring. So it's no surprise...just the reality of it hits Jenna when she hears he is back east with his wife.  They both knew it was wrong but went with it anyway.

I think in this show where the characters are all sort of gray in terms of morality, Earl is played in a very heavy handed "villain" sort of way. It may have been a conscious choice - to portray him that way. I don't know.  Perhaps that while the other characters are basically good people, just doing inappropriate things (handled often in a cute way)....maybe he is bad through and through? I personally think it would have been more effective to have him more layered as well.

 

"

 

Updated On: 6/27/16 at 11:15 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 6/27/16 at 11:36am

"Perhaps that while the other characters are basically good people, just doing inappropriate things (handled often in a cute way).."

 

This I guess is the crux of my question regarding the doctor. Was he basically a good person doing inappropriate things, or a deceitful crud? I feel he was the latter. I'm wondering why we are supposed to think otherwise --- because he liked her pies?