Phantom to change to "re-staged" production in flagship productions?- Page 2

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/21/20 at 9:44am

As someone who has seen the show 100 times or more (and that's not hyperbole), this change would end my relationship with Phantom. Gutting the Prince/Bjornson masterpiece and installing Cameron Mackintosh's "re-imagined" U.S. Tour production in Her Majesty's Theatre and The Majestic would be an unforgivable sin. 

While first-time tourists in London and New York may account for a healthy slice of Phantom ticket-buyers, the show also enjoys an unusually large amount of repeat visits from theatregoers such as myself. Those whose first exposure to Phantom was the recent CamMack redesign may not care, and may even welcome such a change, but the vast majority of longtime aficionados who were introduced to the show via "the brilliant original" will almost certainly turn away.

As I've said before on this board, I have literally seen Phantom of the Opera at least once every time I've visited New York (which, pre-Covid-19, was typically 3-4 times per year) and London, including both the 25th and 30th anniversary performances in New York and two of the three Royal Albert Hall 25th anniversary performances. If this nightmare becomes reality, it's over. I predict that the show will limp along for a brief period and then close.

Goodbye, "Longest-Running-Musical-in-Broadway History".

Updated On: 6/21/20 at 09:44 AM

[JennH]

Posted: 6/21/20 at 10:23am

Phantom4ever said: "Jenn........girl.........if it doesn't happen immediately but does still happen, I would probably do a Thursday to Saturday trip and see the original show 5 times over 3 days and then never step foot in the Majestic again. Until the new show that starts once the Cheap Phantom closes."

HA, I'll join you! Ok, not for all 5 but certainly for 1! I haven't seen it since 2005 and I'm way overdue for another visit. And yes same...if it did happen, I'd see the original once more, and never set foot in there again as long as the shows lasts.

But the argument that to do this would likely be a financially irresponsible is also true. Just about everyone in show business is losing money right now and to suddenly have to come up with a fortune to do this in a self induced (but still necessary) economic downturn would be pretty foolish. Now that I think about it, the way to come up with those funds is literally open the show again, let it run for a while and gather the funds needed over a time, THEN overhaul. And the amount of time, resources, and energy to do this even then, when people still won't have money on had to see a show for a while, would still be pretty obscene and not feasible. 

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 9:29am

I think that what people need to realize is that there’s difference between replacing the original production of Les Miserables and the same for Phantom.

Les Miserables is a show that Cameron is the sole producer of if. Now, I’m not saying that I am happy that he ditched the original in favor of the new staging, simply so he can save a little without having to pay royalties to the RSC.

However, in the case of Phantom, he is a co producer along with Webber’s Really Useful Group. Therefor, he alone doesn’t have the power to make any changes.

[JennH]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 10:08am

Islander_fan said: "I think that what people need to realize is that there’s difference between replacing the original production of Les Miserables and the same for Phantom.

Les Miserables is a show that Cameron is the sole producer of if. Now, I’m not saying that I am happy that he ditched the original in favor of the new staging, simply so he can save a little without having to pay royalties to the RSC.

However, in the case of Phantom, he is a co producer along with Webber’s Really Useful Group. Therefor, he alone doesn’t have the power to make any changes."

Oh good point... anyhoo, ALW just said he's making sure when it returns in the WE it will be the original. Which VERY likely means the same for NYC so YAY :) Still gonna plan my overdue visit though.

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 10:12am

https://twitter.com/OfficialALW/status/1274999965740392449?s=20

"Please believe me. I'm doing everything in my power to ensure that when the Phantom returns it is the brilliant original - ALW"

Why would this not be in his power? Does he not own the show he created with Maria Bjornson, Gillian Lynne, and Hal Prince, all of whom are (sadly) dead now?

Updated On: 6/22/20 at 10:12 AM

[cwilliams]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 11:14am

Cameron is the lead producer, for the productions in London and Broadway. We know that he has a track record of scaling down the other "mega musicals" he produced: Cats, Les Miz, and Miss Saigion, and we have gotten a scaled down Phantom but thankfully, only a tour. (So far) While I wouldn't put it past him to want to cut costs and royalty payments by replacing the OG Phantom with a scaled down version, it seems very short sighted to me, yes it would be cheaper to run but I can't imagine a scaled down version continuing to run for very long. Also, I assume that technically he would first have to officially "close" the show because as far as I know tickets for the current BWAY and London productions have already been sold for future dates. And of course you have further complications, especially on BWAY in that if you scaled down the show in a massive theatre like the Majestic that could be problematic for a few reasons..at this point it's just lots of rumors and uncertainty, only thing is to wait for official word from Cameron

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 11:26am

I imagine this could end up in court if Cameron and Andrew's Really Useful Group don't reach an agreement privately on the show's future.

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 11:28am

cwilliams said: "Cameron is the lead producer, for the productions in London and Broadway. We know that he has a track record of scaling down the other "mega musicals" he produced: Cats, Les Miz, and Miss Saigion, and we have gotten a scaled down Phantom but thankfully, only a tour. (So far) While I wouldn't put it past him to want to cut costs and royalty payments by replacing the OG Phantom with a scaled down version, it seems very short sighted to me, yes it would be cheaper to run but I can't imagine a scaled down version continuing to run for very long. Also, I assume that technically he would first have to officially "close" the show because as far as I know tickets for the current BWAY and London productions have already been sold for future dates. And of course you have further complications, especially on BWAY in that if you scaled down the show in a massive theatre like the Majestic that could be problematic for a few reasons..at this point it's just lots of rumors and uncertainty, only thing is to wait for official word from Cameron"

I'm assuming you are replying to me; if not, then please disregard my response.

I am aware of CamMack's motivation for doing this ($$$, the motivation for everything), but my question is how could he possibly overrule ALW?

Updated On: 6/22/20 at 11:28 AM

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 11:46am

Has it hurt sales for Les Miz in London? Glad I saw the original 2 years ago before it closed. 

[cwilliams]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 12:43pm

I think Les Miz is not a good comparison, in that while I agree the production design and direction were terrific, Les Miz was a show primarily loved for its score, there were several versions of Les Miz that were practically staged concerts and they did very well. Not to take anything away from Phantom's score, as it is my personal favorite, but I think the success of Phantom is less driven primarily by its score and more by the alchemy of its parts, the legendary production design, the brilliant direction, costumes, the way the show is staged and how it plays out is thrilling to witness. If the show can't go on in it's current form because of low ticket sales, which I didn't think was an issue, I would at least hope the a closing announcement would be made that people would be given a chance to see the original production one last time, this was done with Cats, Les Miz, and Miss Saigon, if it must be scaled down, the OG at least deserves a proper send off.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 1:02pm

Lot666 said: "https://twitter.com/OfficialALW/status/1274999965740392449?s=20

"Please believe me. I'm doing everything in my power to ensure that when the Phantom returns it is the brilliant original - ALW"

Why would this not be in his power? Does he not own the show he created with Maria Bjornson, Gillian Lynne, and Hal Prince, all of whom are (sadly) dead now?"

I think you are reading too much into the statement. He simply means that he will do everything in his power to reopen the show, and that it will be the original production when it does. Period. 

[Tag]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 1:06pm

^No I think, it only confirms that these rumours are true.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 1:28pm

Tag said: "^No I think, it only confirms that these rumours are true."

Even if it were true, there would likely be issues with doing the same in New York. Chief among them is cost, but a lengthy closure would also likely affect its tenancy at the Majestic (and if/when renewed, a stop-clause would most certainly be a part of the new agreement, which the current one does not have).

***EDIT

According to some on the Theatreboard.uk, the physical set is woefully outdated and needs to be replaced (the way they go on and on about it, you'd think it was a deathtrap). The "new" production would look more like the recent UK tour.

Updated On: 6/22/20 at 01:28 PM

[EDSOSLO858]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 2:40pm

To Cameron Mackintosh and Andrew Lloyd Webber:

"You will curse the day you did not do, all that your fan base asked of you!"

BRING BACK THE ORIGINAL!!! This is not Les Miz, where I thought the new production was excellent sans turntable and with added projections. Restart the Phantom we all know and love when the time is right.

 

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 3:00pm

cwilliams said: "If the show can't go on in it's current form because of low ticket sales, which I didn't think was an issue"

I seriously doubt that as well. This isn't about weak ticket sales, it's about Cameron Mackintosh being one of those millionaires for whom there can never be "enough" money. He's not a composer or an artist of any kind; he's simply a ruthless capitalist.

Updated On: 6/22/20 at 03:00 PM

[DrewJoseph]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 5:16pm

It does sound logical that a show thats been running this long needs a set replacement. The set is very old (and i dont mean dated, i just mean really old).

I dont give much about Broadways Phantom, but the London production needs to stay the original.

Im certain ALW would hate this. He really loved Maria Bjornsons design and always feels so much respect for her. I cant see him agree with messing with her work.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 5:41pm

I can't speak to the most recent UK tour, but the one that closed not too long in the US was not really all that scaled back. It was only 1 or 2 trucks smaller than the original tour, and more than a few venues actually had to do some renovations to host that tour, namely beefing up the support of their stage floors because that central set piece weighed close to 10 tons. The one advantage it may have had was that it was designed and built with updated technology and show controls, but as Disney showed with The Lion King, you can send out an "updated" tour that looks 95% the same as the original but has updated mechanics and show controls and is easier to load in and out.

[Tag]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 7:47pm

The most recent US tour had a terrible painted main drape that was supposed to look like layered red drapery.  It cheapened the entire show.  Even a plain red velour would have looked 10 times better.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 7:56pm

The recent world tour that was supposed to be the “brilliant original” used that same painted main drape.

Updated On: 6/22/20 at 07:56 PM

[labellaragazza1]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 8:02pm

I’m hoping this means that it is going to lean towards the scale of the recent UK tour, which was the original sans giant angel on the prosthenium and a modified chandelier. Not sure of the other scale backs, but it definitely seemed much more like the original than the 25th anniversary tour.

If that’s the case, I’m not thrilled but I’m alright with it if it means the show keeps running and the set is safe (lets be real, HMT and the majestic could both you’d renovations and mechanical updates, at least). As long as that fully restaged 25th anni tour stays at rest or they don’t replace it with another non/replica (other rumor is the Norwegian/Greek staving I think). Why every replica tour seems to think that Point of No Return needs to take place ON the table is BEYOND me.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 9:25pm

I believe for the new UK tour, the "brilliant original....sort of", they got rid of the angel and had the Phantom pop out from behind an added gargoyle in the cemetery set instead of flying in on the angel. I recall someone sharing a video of the new chandelier that looked to be some sort of a huge track that extend from the ceiling to the false proscenium, where the angel used to be. So the original false proscenium would still be there, with no angel in the middle of it. I've heard people say that the angel was never safe and "they" have been wanting to get rid of it for years. 

I am going to quote Justin D from last November, 2019, because he shared a video of what the new chandelier may look like, along with a picture of the Angel-free proscenium, and a video of the new tour........which apparently may become the new Broadway/West End.  Much of it does look the same; I certainly see some Lynne dance moments there, but not enough of the show is shown to really tell what else has been changed.  

Here's Justin D's post from last November with the links: 

sbflyfan said: "I have no doubt the new "world tour" will end up in North America within the next few years, probably advertised as "the brilliant original" or something similar.

However, this is still NOT a replica staging of the original Prince/ Björnson touring production, and it does water-down certain scenic elements and effects.

Most notably, the chandelier travels on a track, much like the version which is available to rent for school productions. It moves in a very similar fashion to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci_WAiONHw

The track gets in the way of the angel statue, which is no longer present at the top center of the proscenium. The angel statue is used during the rooftop scene, but only as a standalone prop on stage for the Phantom to hide in and appear from.

As the cast bows in front of the closed red curtains, the Phantom is briefly illuminated behind them to shout "Go!" before the chandelier falls.

There are photos where some of the adapted designs are visible here: https://www.edwardpierce.com/phantomoftheopera"

If this were to tour the US in 5-10 years from now, I could live with the changes. My only tiny issue is I still feel they could design something to go up in the proscenium between the tracks so it doesnt look so bare. Also from the press clip in Dubai, the deck candles seem to be only about a quarter of the amount of candles usually used. 

But the lighting is gorgeous and it looks wonderful.

[Tag]

Posted: 6/22/20 at 10:16pm

Is the "current" UK tour the same staging as the South Korean international tour?  Both the "brilliant original" with the modifications?
Is the new anniversary tour completely done/when it closed in Toronto earlier this year, were there plans for it elsewhere?

[sbflyfan]

Posted: 6/23/20 at 1:09am

Tag said: "Is the "current" UK tour the same staging as the South Korean international tour? Both the "brilliant original" with the modifications?

It is not, and that is where the confusion is. 

South Korean International tour designs:
https://www.edwardpierce.com/phantomoftheopera

This production tries to remain mostly true to the original flagship design elements.

"Current" UK tour which opened at the beginning of 2020:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B86-D4pnU1A/

https://twitter.com/phantomopera/status/1235607487631540224

This production pulls front-of-house elements (scrim and chandelier) from the 2015 "reimagined" tour, looking like some sort of mash-up of that tour and the original flagships. Comparing the original flagship proscenium to the 2020 UK Tour version, it's a knock-off of Maria Bjornson's original design, not incorporating any of her elements, except perhaps some of the pieces along the top.

Sure, shows can be re-designed and change, and I'm not here to nitpick the size of candles or props. I do take issue with Cameron Mackintosh marketing his new tours as "The Brilliant Original" when the staging is "A Modified Re-Design Of The Brilliant Original."

Re: The original topic of this thread, equipment and technology have come a LONG way in the 30 years since the original London and Broadway flagship productions were opened.  Are there not ways to replicate and replace worn out sets without re-designing them?  I understand the lighting equipment hasn't been changed or updated and is expensive to maintain. Is there not modern lighting equipment which could replicate (or extremely closely replicate) the original lighting equipment?  If the angel is "unsafe," isn't there a way to alter the rigging equipment or add a safety harness inside it to make it safer to use? 

I highly doubt Phans would take issue with those types of behind-the-scenes updates. However, when you start to change visual scenic elements and parts of the staging, you detract from the essence of the original production. It's no longer "The Brilliant Original."  Therein lies the upset and pushback from fans of the show (myself included).

Surely Mackintosh (a billionaire with the best contacts in the industry) should be able to devise ways to "refresh" or "update" the behind-the-scenes operating mechanics of these two original sit-down productions, while still retaining the original designs and staging, instead of bringing in completely new design elements (a new style of chandelier, new scrim design, eliminating the angel, etc). 

Understandably, it would be difficult (impossible?) to update the mechanics of such a large and intricate show, piece-by-piece, while performances are happening.  I'm sure the cast and crew would need rehearsal with the new technology/equipment they'd be working on, around and with.  But now is his chance.  It's just a question of "does he want to do it the hard way, or the easy way?"

Updated On: 6/23/20 at 01:09 AM

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/23/20 at 3:43am

The other thing to bear in mind here is that what might be a potential cost-saving measure in London is not necessarily so on Broadway. Everything on Broadway is more expensive than in London, so loading out an old production, building and  loading in a new production, and teching, that new production is going to be considerably more expensive here in NY. Not to mention the cost of renovations on the Majestic itself.

The reality is, if Cameron Mackintosh really wanted to replace the production on Broadway he'd probably be in a better position if fully closed it, waited three years, and then opened the "new" production as a revival in the hopes of picking up a few awards to justify making such a change in the first place.

[imeldasturn]

Posted: 6/23/20 at 4:55am

“The set of this, the original production, is now over 34 years old and unsurprisingly many of the scenic elements are coming to the end of their natural life which was never envisaged to be as long as this when first built. LW Theatres, operator of Her Majesty’s Theatre, also need to attend to a number of remedial works on this historic building that for the last four decades has only been able to undertake decorative work.”

https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/the-phantom-of-the-opera-to-remain-closed-for-extended-period-while-maintenance-work-to-set-is-carried-out

Updated On: 6/23/20 at 04:55 AM