Possible changes to be made to Book of Mormon- Page 2

[Kad]

Posted: 3/15/21 at 4:02pm

LizzieCurry said: "Yep! I LIKE the show (that's not a secret). I like that it does aim daggers at the white-savior complex. But you hit the nail on the head with your second paragraph as well."

I like the show a lot too! I will always cherish my memory of seeing the show during its first week of previews, and went on to see the original cast many times from standing room. And, honestly, I probably was part of the crowd defending the show against this sort of criticism back in 2011. I still think it's a very well-intentioned show with a lot to recommend in it. But my views have changed. And I think it's great that the views of those involved have, too.

[Fan123]

Posted: 3/15/21 at 4:24pm

Could that typewriter moment from the show, in itself, be an example of meaning being changed by how it's played? I can't remember the details of that moment, so I'm genuinely unsure. Is it one that could either be played as an exaggerated illustration of how the Ugandans don't have a lot of stuff that we take for granted (not even phones), or else as them just being idiots?

Say that, on South Park or The Simpsons, the main characters visited a Dickensian orphanage for some reason. If there was a child there who cheerfully said "My favourite toy is this Brillo pad, I call him Scratchy because it hurts when I cuddle him!" *cradles Brillo pad lovingly*, the intended (and actual) audience takeaway probably wouldn't be "Poor kids are idiots", but rather "Man, these kids really have nothing and no one".

(Anyway: I like BOM, but reexamining such moments sounds reasonable to me.)

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/15/21 at 5:33pm

I feel like that's slightly different from "Ugandans are backwards idiots who don't know about Star Wars and think having sex with babies cures aids".

[Fan123]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 2:44am

I was asking about that typewriter moment specifically.

[ClumsyDude15]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 10:04am

For anyone looking for the specific context: The typewriter moment happens shortly after we arrive in Uganda and Nabulungi has picked up a typerwriter in the market and is showing it to her father and says "I finally found one - a texting device". This typewriter bit continues through most of the show in various moments including Nabulungi running on just before Man Up to inform Elder Cunningham that she has "texted" her friends to give Elder Price a chance and that the Mormons are here to help. 

Updated On: 3/16/21 at 10:04 AM

[ClumsyDude15]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 10:15am

Double posting to echo the sentiment of being a fan of the show and I applaud the members of the company for taking this time while Broadway is shutdown to address these issues and have conversations that I'm sure they've been wanting to have for some time. 

[Kad]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 12:02pm

I sort of picked the typewriter joke arbitrarily because it was the first example that came to mind. I really don't see how the joke can be interpreted as anything other than "haha these backwards impoverished people."

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 12:24pm

Agreed Kad.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 12:48pm

Kad said: "I sort of picked the typewriter joke arbitrarily because it was the first example that came to mind. I really don't see how the joke can be interpreted as anything other than "haha these backwards impoverished people.""

That's true. It's a joke about being impoverished in general, not a joke about impoverished Ugandans specifically. But this is where the issue lies. There is a disconnect somewhere that audiences and performers have, which prevents them from being able to differentiate between a generic joke and a joke being related to race (Personally I think that specific joke is an all around stupid joke in the first place and shouldn't have survived previews, as it rarely gets a laugh whenever I've seen the show). Is it performance related or is it the joke itself, or is it the prejudices of the audience? They are revisiting to make sure it can be clearer.

[Owen22]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 2:54pm

Kad said: "I sort of picked the typewriter joke arbitrarily because it was the first example that came to mind. I really don't see how the joke can be interpreted as anything other than "haha these backwards impoverished people.""

I think intent is important.  And I'm sure Lopez Stone and Parker did not write that bit at all thinking: "haha these backwards impoverished people.""

As we become more and more woke we seem to have a harder time understanding the unique form of comedy that is (was) satire and the edges satire walks (walked).  Maybe some people think it's a good thing, that that line should not be tiptoed on anyway--maybe never should have!  That maybe the age of that kind of satire, satire that pulls attention to something using tropes generally thought of as outre and illiberal to illustrate something outre and illiberal, should be done away with anyway.  If it seems to hurt or make uncomfortable those who are the victims or the adjacent victims of satire should we end it? 

[Kad]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 3:49pm

What is that particular joke satirizing? What is it illuminating through its use of tropes?

And intent can only go so far. I can intend to make a good dinner, but if I burn the roast to a char, I can't serve my guests my intentions.

Updated On: 3/16/21 at 03:49 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 6:09pm

Closing it? . My wife and I hated every moment of it Person in front of us,was,a,shrink . She said her son got her the tickets and she planned to berate him about it as she hated it more than we did.

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 6:25pm

Kad said: "What is that particular joke satirizing? What is it illuminating through its use of tropes?

And intent can only go so far. I can intend to make a good dinner, but if I burn the roast to a char, I can't serve my guests my intentions.”

Exactly. You don’t have to have poor intentions to have a negative impact. 
 

I’m so tired of explaining this to people. Just because you aren’t offended by something doesn’t mean that it isn’t offensive, and just because something has been one way for a long period of time doesn’t mean it should always stay that way. 

[John Adams]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 6:50pm

Kad said: "What is that particular joke satirizing? What is it illuminating through its use of tropes?"

Perhaps the joke is meant to comment on which areas of the world tech companies deem "worthy" enough to seed with technology (cell towers/phones) first, and which are seeded last. 

Nabulungi is not "backwards". She just wasn't privileged with the tech advantages that had been afforded to other areas of the world. 

[missthemountains]

Posted: 3/16/21 at 7:00pm

I've said it once, I've said it again: satire is dead after the Trump era. Our cultural attitude for satire without an over-the-top point of view is second to none. 

Personally, I don't think they should change it - I think they should just close it and move on. I think culturally the moment for a show like BOM has passed. To me, it seems counter-intuitive: the entire premise of the show is "problematic". I do think though that the jokes are mostly at the expense of the Mormons, and that we are seeing the show through "their" eyes. 

I'm all for inclusivity, but I think we also have to recognize that not everything is for everyone, and that's okay. Matt and Trey have never been progressive feminists and it seems dumb they'd start now. The truth is, South Park wouldn't be made today. And in retrospect, some of South Park has aged very poorly, but other parts of it are still really hilarious to me. But what I love about Matt and Trey is that they have a way of making us all not take things so seriously, and they make fun of everyone. I think the world could use a little more of that these days. Even as a millennial, I find a lot of people in my generation and Gen Z are super, super reactionary and often times, nuance is lacking.  

[Owen22]

Posted: 3/17/21 at 10:46am

Kad said: "What is that particular joke satirizing? What is it illuminating through its use of tropes?

And intent can only go so far. I can intend to make a good dinner, but if I burn the roast to a char, I can't serve my guests my intentions."

Dude. Really bad simile. Try again...

[Owen22]

Posted: 3/17/21 at 10:57am

missthemountains said: "I've said it once, I've said it again: satire is dead after the Trump era



I have to agree. The other day I posted a new subject on Bway World. It was a funny/sad video of the Naked Cowboy getting arrested and I headlined it "I Think It's Time to Cancel the Naked Cowboy". It seemed to me, obviously, a satirical headline. Oh no. The first part of the responses were basically "I f'ing HATE cancel culture..." etc. Now, it did turn out to be an interesting discussion on the subject but ... really?

Updated On: 3/17/21 at 10:57 AM

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 3/17/21 at 2:07pm

Re: the marketing. It wouldn’t make sense to advertise with the African villagers as that would give the gag away. The audience doesn’t know he’s going to Uganda. So don’t think that’s offensive.

Let’s talk about what’s really offensive: how Casey N always has the gay character tap dancing... like let’s just quit that.

[¿Macavity?]

Posted: 3/17/21 at 3:33pm

Owen22 said: "Kad said: "What is that particular joke satirizing? What is it illuminating through its use of tropes?

And intent can only go so far. I can intend to make a good dinner, but if I burn the roast to a char, I can't serve my guests my intentions."


Dude. Really bad simile. Try again..."

I believe that's more of an analogy and, imo, is a clear one at that. Could you be more specific as to what you don't like about it? I ask only for the sake of learning.

[EDSOSLO858]

Posted: 3/17/21 at 3:52pm

SouthernCakes said: "Let’s talk about what’s really offensive: how Casey N always has the gay character tap dancing... like let’s just quit that."

Thank you. And while we're at it, Nicholaw does not always have to insert a tap dance in most of his shows, period. I've come to expect his usual shtick whenever I see one of his projects. 

[Kad]

Posted: 3/17/21 at 4:49pm

Owen22 said: "Kad said: "What is that particular joke satirizing? What is it illuminating through its use of tropes?

And intent can only go so far. I can intend to make a good dinner, but if I burn the roast to a char, I can't serve my guests my intentions."


Dude. Really bad simile. Try again..."

Well, people have responded finding it clear. Maybe the issue is you, despite my intent to be clear.

Simply being sarcastic or ironic or tongue-in-cheek is not satire.

Updated On: 3/17/21 at 04:49 PM

[Fan123]

Posted: 3/18/21 at 6:20am

Thank you to ClumsyDude15 for providing more details about that joke. Several good points raised here, both for and against. I haven't thought of anything particularly coherent to contribute further on whether or not that joke can be done in a way that's 'okay'. I'll just mention that while I find it an interesting thought experiment to ponder "Can this maybe-problematic aspect of such-and-such show be made to work? If so, how?", and I think those conversations are useful to have, I guess it is a luxury to be able to think of such a question as a purely academic exercise, when I'm not part of the group potentially being hurt. I appreciate that comments here have prompted me to think about that, even if we don't agree on all points.

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 3/18/21 at 8:39am

I guess I just don’t see anything of important or artistic value in this show worth people ‘defending’ it. Like, really what impact either way will this show have that people are so adamantly against adjustments for the sake of progress?

[binau]

Posted: 3/18/21 at 8:47am

Is there another show on Broadway (or in mainstream consciousness) that is calling out the dangers, idiocy and hypocrisy of organised religion in a way that actually resonates and entertains mainstream audiences? The very thinking that has spread in Africa and continues to oppress gay people in Africa to this day? The very thinking that historically has contributed to the lack of wearing protection to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and ruined the lives of millions of Africans? The very thinking that festers in the Christian Party of America aka The Republican Party who continue to bring up topics that should be 'done and dusted' such as abortion rights - and worries those outside the USA who realise the massive world influence of the USA means these ideas can spread to other political avenues in other countries. The very thinking that contributes to the USA being one of the most polarised and least progressive western nations on earth? Yes, I think there is something worth defending in this show. And if they need to 'fix' the show to keep it running, they should fix it. 

[BJR]

Posted: 3/18/21 at 10:28am

^Completely agree. Satire is necessary. The show is brilliant satire. But also, the line of what is offensive shifts over time. And if there was any team smart enough to shift along with it, while keeping true to the satire and spirit of the material, it's them.