Sondheim's weaker lyrics/rhymes- Page 3

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 7:28pm

I absolutely love the career line from I'm Still Here, and the "just kept on" line from Good Thing Going is (to me) one of the best lyrics in Merrily.

Fair enough, tazber. But would Carlotta know "career" as a verb? This isn't a glaring error to me, but it's odd when words such as "careen" would work at least as well.

[After Eight]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 7:36pm

"I think we've finally gotten to the bottom of it!"

You haven't even scratched the surface of it. I'll try to explain to you, though I'm afraid it's wholly beyond your comprehension. Gaveston, above, proclaimed this song to be an accurate portrait. Others do the same. It is not. It is an odious, misogynistic pack of lies that passes itself off as the truth, and is championed as such by Gaveston and his ilk.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 7:40pm

My "ilk", A8? Well, pardon me for affording you the respect of actually responding to your nonsense.

***

Eric, I see your point, but to me Sondheim's language is no more heightened than Shakespeare's (and sometimes no more than Williams'). I accept it the same way I accept that characters in musicals dress better and are better lit than people in real life.



Updated On: 12/27/13 at 07:40 PM

[indytallguy]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 7:41pm

That's what I need in my life.

Better lighting :)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 7:46pm

You and me both! But there was a moment on Christmas Eve when I looked around at my family (ages mid-40s to early-70s) illuminated only by candles and firelight. We were all very beautiful indeed!

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 7:55pm

And here A8 claims he never instigates personal attacks in his messages.

Gaveston--I agree with you, it's just (and of course I can't think of an example right now) there are a few times where Sondheim does one of his very clever rhyme lists that go on and on, and they have taken me out of the show to an extent.

[After Eight]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 8:00pm

"Originally you objected to the line "Too busy to know that they're fools" "

I cited but one line. I ALWAYS objected to ALL of it.

"and I have any number of friends who fit that description."

You have friends that you consider fools? I'm sure they'd love to know that. Boy, with friends like you......No wonder you love this song.

Updated On: 12/27/13 at 08:00 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 8:22pm

I have friends whom Joanne would consider "fools". I consider them willfully unaware, but I don't require perfection from my friends, A8. No, this is not an offer of friendship to you; my patience has limits.

And besides, anyone who demands that the world always be viewed through rose-colored glasses makes a very poor companion.

***

I do know what you mean, Eric. It's just that to me, musical theater is so inherently presentational that I'm not "in" the play except in very rare moments.

Updated On: 12/27/13 at 08:22 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 9:13pm

"This isn't a glaring error to me, but it's odd when words such as "careen" would work at least as well."

That's so funny you would say that. In my mind, whenever I hear the song, I always think of how "careen" would fit in so much better.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 10:49pm

Kad, even my stepson-the-alt-rocker said the same thing!

Since this is Sondheim, I have no doubt he had a very deliberate reason to choose "career" over "careen" as the verb in that line, but to me, the latter is actually more interesting.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 11:20pm

I've always liked that specific lyric. Rule of threes, maybe? I feel that without the first career that line doesn't build to anything.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 11:38pm

I love that lyric, I think it adds to the sense of tiredness and "being there done that" the song is going for.
You know what Sondheim lyric I can't stand? The pedestrian and unnecessary rewrite for "Last Midnight," particularly: "You're so pure/But stay here and in time/You'll mature," which I find quite empty and obvious. The original "you're so nice, you're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice" to me does a lot to explain where the Witch's character is coming from and provides an interesting perspective (hers) on the rest of the characters.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 11:54pm

then you careen from chorine to chorine.

[MCfan2]

Posted: 12/27/13 at 11:59pm

I agree about the "you're just nice" lyric -- in fact, I've always thought it one of the strongest lyrics he ever wrote. It describes a certain type of personality so perfectly, in just a few words.

[morosco]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 12:13am

This is interesting.
Although “careen” and “career” as verbs are often used interchangeably today, they are, in fact, quite separate words. Strictly speaking, “careen” means “to lean over, to tilt,” while “career” as a verb means “to rush at full speed” (with implications of recklessness).
Careen / Career

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 12:34am

Maybe PJ is right. Sondheim should never be doubted. That's an impressive find, morosco.

Updated On: 12/28/13 at 12:34 AM

[MarkBearSF]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 2:49am

In "Our Time" the times he rhymes "show 'em" with "know"
always is a stretch to me.

"Tell 'em things they don't know!
Up to us, pal, to show 'em ?"

As for his showy repeating rhymes - yeah, they may take me out of the song for a moment, but IMHO - it's worth it. Remembering his story about Cole Porter's delight at hearing the final "amigo" rhyme in "Together, Wherever We Go" - perhaps we can blame Cole Porter for encouraging a habit of adding just one more rhyme.

Updated On: 12/28/13 at 02:49 AM

[artscallion]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 7:42am

"I agree about the "you're just nice" lyric -- in fact, I've always thought it one of the strongest lyrics he ever wrote. It describes a certain type of personality so perfectly, in just a few words."

And, this lyric brings us directly back to the whole "nice is different than good" theme of Little Red's song...not to mention the whole show.

Updated On: 12/28/13 at 07:42 AM

[newintown]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 8:30am

Reading this thread is like listening to a classroom full of all my worst students ever; the ones who like to make themselves feel smart by pointing out how bad great artists are. And you can't explain to them how they don't get it, because they vastly prefer the illusion of feeling smart more than learning anything.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 8:42am

I detest this thread and everyone in it.

[Kad]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 9:50am

Is PalJoey an alternate universe version of AfterEight?

If they met, would reality as we know it cease to exist?

[tom2000a]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 10:45am

I started this thread. It's amazing to see what people have come up with. Mostly nonsense. I merely asked isn't "Raisins and Liaisons" a dreadful lyric... and even more so... the stretch to make the rhyme.... from Figs to Raisins to Liaisons. Does anyone else agree this is awkward at best?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 1:25pm

PalJoey and Newintown in agreement! Dogs and cats living together!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 1:56pm

Is PalJoey an alternate universe version of AfterEight? If they met, would reality as we know it cease to exist?

This is what would happen if PalJoey and AfterEight were to meet:

[SidebySidebyLogan]

Posted: 12/28/13 at 3:07pm

The Follies lyrics are tricky. They could be intentionally "bad" as a pastiche of Porter, Gershwin, etc.